Talk:Voisava Kastrioti/Archive 3

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Marquis of Tripalda

"Marchese di Tripalda, il cui nome è Alfonso Castriota, oriundo da una famiglia albanese, stabilitasi nella penisola Salentina, era capitano delle milizie imperiali, sotto Carlo V. Nel 1528, essendosi i francesi fatti più che minacciosi agressivi..." (Corrado Argani: Condottieri, capitani, tribuni, Volume 3. E. B. B. I., Instituto editoriale italiano B. C. Tosi, 1937. Page 327. [1])

The Marquis of Tripalda, whose name was Alfonso Castriota, scion of an Albanian family.... etc. This means that "Tripalda" is not an ethnonym, but the name of a March. Even if it were, "the prince of Triballians (Serbs)" does not prove that he was ethnically Serbian, Bulgarian, or Macedonian. I think we should better stick to the old sources, Barletius, Musachi and the Anonymous of Venice. Majuru (talk) 07:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC) Barletius does not contradict Musachi. Musachi is related to Voisava on a female line (her mother).

Sorry I am not clear what the request is. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:52, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Marin Barletti

The statement

• Marin Barletti's biography of G. Castrioti-Skanderbeg (c. 1510), who informs us that she was the daughter of a "Triballian" lord cite

should be

• Marin Barletti's biography of G. Castrioti-Skanderbeg (c. 1510), states that she was the daughter of a "Triballian" lord cite

Per WP:SAY / standard MOS of not writing in the first person "us". Active Banana (^bananaphone 11:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

should be

• Marinus Barletius' biography of G. Kastrioti-Scanderbeg (c. 1510), states that she was the daughter of a lord of the "Triballians" cite (Barletius, l. I, fo 2: «uxori Voisavae nomen erat non indignam eo viro tum pater nobilissimus Triballorum princeps, tum forma...») Majuru (talk) 11:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Do we have other evidences that a territory called "Tribalda" existed? If no, the above "title of nobility" is one more bogus title, one of those that, along with spectacular flags and arms, were granted to condottieri as a reward for their services.--Euzen (talk) 19:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Here, maybe. [2]Majuru (talk) 20:19, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I just want to clarify that:

1. The correct form is Tripalda, not Tribalda
   

They are both correct. See my post below.--Euzen (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

1. Tripalda was also place, two miles away from Avellino, nowadays it is called Atripalda
2. There were other contemporaries called marquis of Tripalda, interestingly enough from Orsini family a famous family in Italy with many condottieri who also ruled over Epirus and were linked with Angevins which created Kingdom of Albania. IMO what Gjon Muzaka is saying makes more sense. At least he was a noble, knew Skanderbeg and his family personally and the genealogies in his book are proved by other historians as true. Aigest (talk) 20:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Some extra info: Giovani Muzachi, as published by G.J.Hopf in "Chroniques Grecoromaines ...", p. 313:

"Il medesmo dice Papa Pio secondo in la sua historia volgare; perό lasso quel che dice la cronica, per non replicare il tutto; nel capitolo pό del Europa dice, che il Dalmatini, ch' hoggi sono li Schiavoni, et Illirij ch' oggi dicono Bosnesi, Tribali overo Misii ch' hoggi se nominato Serviani; ...". --Euzen (talk) 07:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Huh! How is that related with what we are talking about?! Just to remind you in the same book Giovani Muzachi states clear "E la madre de detto Signor Scanderbeg, moglie del detto Signor Giovanni, hebbe nome Signora Voisava Tripalda e venne da bonna parte." Hopf Chroniques, p. 301. So according to Muzachi "hebbe nome Signora Voisava Tripalda" it is correctly translated as "her name was Lady Voisava Tripalda" Tripalda being a surname and he says nothing for her father or mother. He says "e venne bonna parte" correctly translation "and she came from nobility". Anyway it was about Tripalda we were talking about, how come you keep slipping in old OR arguments and more important, not related to this case? Aigest (talk) 09:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Tripalda or Tribalda? Both. J.G. von Hahn, Reise durch die Gebiet des Drin und Wardar, p. 305:

"Skanderbeg's Mutter wird von dem Despoten einmal Visava Tribalda (*), ein andersmal Voisava Tripalda genannt, ...". (*)(Footnote 3) "Dieser Name mag vielleicth Anlass zu der sonderbaren Angabe des Barletius S. 4 gegeben haben, dass ihr Vater nobilissimus Tribalorum princeps gewesen sei."
So, Hahn assumes that "Tribalda" or "Tripalda" is a corruption or derivative from Barleti's quotation on Triballi. There were no "surnames" at that time. Compare to "Castriotus Albanesius" etc.--Euzen (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
May I remind everybody that articles are not written on our criticism on sources but on the sources themselves. This editing group has already been so generous as to consider Hodgkinson as a source. --Euzen (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

@Euzen. Do you agree that Muzachi says literally "her name was Lady Vosisava Tripalda" in his original work in Latin, while the argument Tripalda is a corruption of Tribalda is an interpretation of Hahn? Aigest (talk) 20:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Factual accuracy

Which parts of the article have inaccuracies or other facts that make its accuracy disputed? Majuru (talk) 11:36, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The Triballi is SYNTH and I also added an interview of Schmitt, who has changed his views since then.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I removed that, as he does not mention there nor his mother, nor Voisava by name, but only Skanderbeg. Also, Hodgkinson personal views are not sources still. Please, any new intro propose here first, as it looks like we have some status quo, not good for both sides, but article is peaceful for week or two. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 12:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

People have two parents and when an author says that someone was of non-X origin he means his ancestors. There's no OR in that.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Point me that exact sentence you mention, please, with translation. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 12:32, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

(Journalist's question):A mund të thoni diçka për pretendimin se në libër prejardhja e Skënderbeut del jo shqiptare?

(Schmitt's answer):Nuk jam absolutisht i këtij mendimi.

• Translation: Can you please tell us a bit more about the claim of your book that Skanderbeg is of non-Albanian origin?

I'm absolutely not of that opinion.(and then he continues with comparisons that how names are documented mean nothing about someone's origin the examples being his name and Jani Vreto).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:36, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

His book was published in 2008 and the interview is of 2009.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:39, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, for now. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 12:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The last line (denied his thesis) is inaccurate and sounds more like a compliment to the readers of an Albanian news-paper. Untill we have an academic publication by Schmitt saying that "Vojsava was Albanian" let's stick to what he published and signed as an author.
Barletti's information is unique and cannot be deleted for any reason. If some users feel uncomfortable with "Triballian=Serbian or Bulgarian", we can leave it just "Triballians" with link to the relevant article and let the reader interpret it. But, on the other side, why should we accept that "Muzaki family = Albanian"? Isn't this a "synth"? In the family-tree of Musachi published by Hopf I don't see any Vojsava (except one who married a Francesco Martino de Carles). But I see some "Comnenos" ancestors, who are not Albanians. Shall we include this in the references (in analogy of "Schmitt denying his thesis")? --Euzen (talk) 18:38, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree --WhiteWriter ^speaks 19:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I think only accurated must be added, not the opinion that WhiteWriter formed about this topic --Vinie007 20:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your sentence... --WhiteWriter ^speaks 20:50, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Euzen:Please stick to the sources and don't attribute OR and SYNTH ot them.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

That same advice you should use before all, Zjarri. Euzen's comment is completely relevant and good. He did stick to the sources. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 21:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Please don't attribute to Barleti views he never supported.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

He did, actually... :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 17:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Citations needed
This phrase may need citation of the original source (Hopf, Musachi) or erasing: “According to this work, she was a member of the Muzaka family”.
Can someone find where exactly the “Chronicle of Musachi” says that Voisava was a member of that family? Here is the elementary family-tree drawn by Musachi:Karl Hopf, Chroniques gréco-romaines, Paris 1873, Musachi Chronicle, p. 308.
I believe that this is not readily understandable by the average reader without further research and expert’s assistance. So, the citation of a secondary author is normally needed and I think we have already one or two in the next paragraph. On the other hand, Hopf who published the Musachi chronicle and drafted a complete family-tree, does not seem to endorse this relation. Here is the Musachi family-tree, where I cannot see Voisava. It's a bit out of focus on the sides but still readable. K. Hopf, Musachi family-tree
Instead, in the Castrioti family-tree he refers to Voisava as “fille du seigneur (Serbe) de Polog” (daughter of a lord (Serbian) from Polog): K. Hopf, Castrioti family tree, p. 533
This is a citation that must be included in the article.

Here are some other useful texts from Johann Georg von Hahn, Reise durch die Gebiete von Drin und Wardar, Wien 1867.

• p. 305 on the ancestors of Skanderbeg. Voisava is mentioned in par. 3 and footnotes 3 and 4. [3]
• p.306 on Kastrioti family

[4]

• p. 307 [5]
• p. 308 on Kastrioti and Musachi families [6].
• p. 309 Here Hahn elaborates on the possible relation of Voisava with the family of Branai or Brana Conte. [7].--Euzen (talk) 07:44, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Hahn is an excellent source regarding statistics, but he's not RS on most other subjects, although I find the possibility of a relation with Konti interesting. However, it's not a reliable source because among others it mentions that the Dukagjini family descents from ancient Troy. Btw you didn't have to scan it.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 07:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

While Musachi's text is most credible, claiming that he descents from a ... Caesar Britanius. --Euzen (talk) 10:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)