Talk:Viking raid warfare and tactics

Other common weapons

Other common weapons includes the seax and the bow. Late in the Viking Age, crossbows were also used for both hunting and combat. RhinoMind (talk) 19:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Some streamlining of text ...

... and other editing, including, as I see when rereading, a few typos. Refs to come. T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 03:02, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Entire article is POV and ahistorical

99% of the references in this article are from a limited source (Winroth & Sprague, Martina. Norse Warfare). They are entirely POV. Most encyclopedias and sources list entirely different Norse and Dane battle tactics. 85.148.213.144 (talk) 03:14, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Changes I'm planning to make to this article

. Expand on the section about tactics employed during raiding campaigns (along with providing more sources including Brink and Pierce's 'The viking world' collection, S.Coupland's and contemporary accounts of Viking raids from Frankish Chronicles)

. Expand on the equipment used by raiding parties (including early siege engines and cavalry)

. Expand on the use of ships in logistics and transportation for inland raiding

. Amending/clarifying information (e.g. the point about raiding churches being wholly unique to the vikings is a misconception + removing the conjecture around axes being particularly intimidating to Christians - battle axes were used by the Franks before Viking incursions into central and western Europe began) Slothenstein (talk) 18:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Changes made to the article

Culture of war

. Changed “intimidating war tactics” to “tactics” to be more concise

Culture of War . Added the caveat that the Icelandic Sagas were written in the 13th-14th centuries, after Scandinavia and Iceland had become Christian

. Added citation of Gareth Williams, ‘Raiding and Warfare’ to provide a more demonstrable example of how raiding could lead to political progression back in Scandinavia + added to the source section

. Changed “This reasoning explains the Viking preference for attacking monasteries and churches containing riches and expensive relics that the Norsemen saw as valuable for trade.” to “This was one reason that monasteries and churches were often targeted, due to their wealth in relics and luxury goods like precious metals, fine cloths, and ornate books.”

. Added Citation of S. Coupland ‘Holy Ground? The Plundering and Burning of Churches by Vikings and Franks in the Ninth Century’ + a quote from the text to provide evidence of book theft and sale by Vikings

Raids . Changed “The Vikings preferred to attack coastal regions because these regions were impossible to block off from the enemies' standpoint.” to “The Vikings regularly attacked coastal regions due to the difficult nature of defending such regions, as well as utilising rivers and stolen horses to raid deeper inland by the mid 9th century.”

. Added Citation for the Annals of St. Bertin + wikipedia page link

. Added Citation for the Annals of Fulda + wikipedia page link

. Added Citation for Regino of Prum’s Chronicle + wikipedia page link

. Removed “These raids had religious implication to them” since it’s speculation

. Changed “and destroy what was left” to “and were known to set fires in their wake. While there is evidence that Viking arson attacks did occur, more recent scholarship has cast doubt on quite how severe the physical damages (rather than their psychological impact) truly were. Regino of Prum’s Chronicle records that the palace of Aachen was burned to the ground but there is no archaeological evidence of destruction on such a scale at the site.”

. Changed “This caused mass fear amongst such monks, as they felt that it was punishment from God” to “These attacks caused widespread fear, so much so that the Vikings were thought by some monks to be a punishment from God.”

. Removed “From their point of view, the Vikings were violent and evil heathens.”

Seafaring and military strategies:

. Added “extortion” to the point about ransoms + links to pages on the siege of Asselt and Charles the Fat + added citation of the Annals of Fulda

Battle Tactics on Land . Removed “Viking units often lacked formation. They have been described as "bees swarming." However, what they lacked in formation they made up with ferociousness, flexibility, and more often than not, extensive reconnaissance. This naturalistic sense of unconventional warfare is rooted in their lack of organized leadership.” - factually incorrect in lacking formations + no citation for ‘described as swarming bees’. They commonly made use of shield-wall formations in battle, as well as the fact raids did have leaders and commanders

. Changed “Viking military tactics succeeded mainly because they disregarded the conventional battlefield tactics, methods, and customs of the time.” to “Viking tactics were unconventional by wider European standards at the time and this element of ‘otherness’ brought with it a tactical advantage.”

. Changed “They ignored the unspoken rules of leaving holy sites untouched” to “They also attacked holy sites far more regularly than Frankish and other Christian armies did” + added citation of S. Coupland, ‘Holy Ground’

. Changed “often butchering the clergy at these sites in honour of a Pagan god.” to “often killing or taking the clergy at these sites prisoner, to then either ransom or take back as slaves.”

. Added information about Overwintering + citation of G. Williams ‘Raiding and Warfare’

. Added information about the use of ships during inland raiding + citation of G. Williams ‘Raiding and Warfare’

Common weapons:

. Removed “This was in part due to the Norsemen's natural height and build, being taller and bigger than Frankish and English men at the time.” from the section discussing spears since spears were widely used by both the Franks and Anglo-Saxons; the alleged height difference had no impact on this fact.

. Removed “The axe was psychologically intimidating to the people of Christian territories the Vikings sacked” - axes had long been used by Christian soldiers in this period.

. Changed “Swords had to be simple yet functional, and there was little to no design on them; however, once one was given a sword, a strong bond[further explanation needed] was formed between the weapon and its owner.[1] It is believed that the sword was about 90 cm long and had a blade of 80 cm and a handle of 10 cm.[2] Almost every sword was double-edged, which meant that they could slash in different directions without having to worry about which side was the sharp side.[2]” to “Viking swords were pattern-welded and most commonly decorated with copper inlays and icons, featuring a fuller down the centre of the blade in order to reduce the weight of the blade[1]; a few single-bladed swords around a meter in length have been unearthed but the most commonly found swords in Viking graves are double-edged with blades measuring around 90cm long[1] and 15cm wide.” + added citation of Anne Pedersen “Viking Weaponry” in ‘The viking world’ + added link to page on pattern welding as the way swords were made.

Defensive equipment:

. Changed “Only the wealthiest Vikings could afford helmets, as they were expensive.[1]” to “While few intact helmets have been recovered from Viking burial sites (often just fragments of metal), contemporary depictions of Viking warriors do show them wearing helmets which has led some historians, like Anne Pedersen, to suspect that most warriors wore leather helmets rather than metal” + added citation of Anne Pedersen “Viking Weaponry” in ‘The viking world’

. Changed “One piece of defensive equipment that every warrior had was a shield” to “Another piece of defensive equipment used by warriors was a shield.”

. Added information about chain mail being found in a few viking graves + citation of Anne Pedersen “Viking Weaponry” Slothenstein (talk) 10:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Rewrite?

Hi, apologies for doing it this way ... but to me the text seemed so very cobbled together from various sources and by a multitude of editors, resulting in staccato prose and little concern for excess detail (that swords were used also in holmgang is irrelevant for raiding, no?) and glaring omissions (the usual England-centric blinkers). I first noted the mix of very specific detail and highly general overview items; and originally, the plan was to extract these overview items into a ... well, overview. The result is the section "Overall warfare". But I ended up cutting and pasting a lot. Unfortunately, this has probably made hash of the references. Anyway, this is an attempt to be bold at least on the talk page. I do not propose to just replace the existing article, but that kindly editors can pick a para here and a sentence there that might serve to tighten the article. Well, if not, apologies again. T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
/// Viking raid warfare and tactics
Lede /no changes/
Contents /to be updated/
Insert:

Sources

Viking raids were recorded in various annals and chronicles by their victims."[12] The Annals of St. Bertin[13] and the Annals of Fulda[14] contain East and West Frankish records (respectively) of Viking attacks, as does Regino of Prum's Chronicle[15], which was written as a history of the Carolingian Empire in its final years.
We lack direct written sources about these raids from the Viking perspective. This leaves us with necessarily partisan views of the raiders from Christians who were being attacked in their churches and lands.[17]

Culture of war
Vikings, according to Clare Downham ..... these holy books to remain longer in heathen possession"[10])
/no changes/

Causes/Background ....

Who
The Norse were born into a seafaring culture. With the Atlantic Ocean to the west and the Baltic and North Sea bordering southern Scandinavia, seafaring proved to be an important means of communication for Scandinavians, and a vital instrument for the Vikings.[11]
Warriors could be as young as 12 years old.[39] Various basic physical tests were required to join the Viking forces, but these tests were considered easy to pass.[39]

Overall warfare
Despite reports since the 5th Century of the presence of seafaring Germanic peoples both in the Black Sea and in Frisia, and archaeological evidence of earlier contact with the British Isles, the Viking Age proper is characterized by extensive raiding, first by minor seasonal parties led by a chieftain, and later also entire armies, led by kings. The reason for these raids is unknown, but some have suggested that the increase in trade created a growth in piracy.[40] The Vikings regularly attacked coastal regions due to the difficult nature of defending such regions, as well as utilising rivers and stolen horses to raid deeper inland by the mid 9th century.
Vikings raided for economic rather than political or territorial gains,[32] and so were eager to enrich themselves through ransom, extortion, and slave trading. A noteworthy examples of ransom/tribute being paid to end a conflict is the 882 siege of Asselt which ended with emperor Charles the Fat paying the vikings 2,412 lbs of gold and silver, as well as granting them land and allowing them to sail back to scandinavia with an alleged two-hundred captives.[14] Norsemen who sailed back to Scandinavia after raiding brought back their loot as a symbol of pride and power. "The Viking chieftains Sigfrid and Gorm 'sent ships loaded with treasure and captives back to their country' in 882".[45]
Viking tactics were unconventional by wider European standards at the time and this element of ‘otherness’ brought with it a tactical advantage. Sprague compares these tactics to those of contemporary western Special Forces soldiers, who "attack in small units with specific objectives."[35]
These attacks caused widespread fear, so much so that the Vikings were thought by some monks to be a punishment from God.[16]

Stages/Phases/Types ..... «Development» ...

Raids
Invasions
Conquests

Raids

Initially, the Vikings limited their attacks to "hit-and-run" raids. These raids continued for the entirety of the Viking Age. Viking shore parties would target monasteries along the coast, raid towns near coasts and rivers for their booty, and reportedly set fires in their wake. While there is evidence that Viking arson attacks did occur, more recent scholarship has cast doubt on quite how severe the physical damages (rather than their psychological impact) truly were. Regino of Prum’s Chronicle records that the palace of Aachen was burned to the ground[15] but there is no archaeological evidence of destruction on such a scale at the site.

Invasions
The Vikings soon expanded their operations. In the years 814–820, Danish Vikings repeatedly sacked the regions of Frisia, the Rhineland and Northwestern France via the Seine River and also repeatedly sacked monasteries in the Bay of Biscay via the Loire River.
The Vikings had taken control of most of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms by the 870s, which was after the time of the Great Heathen Army that swept the Anglo-Saxon rulers away from power in 865. This army focused not on raiding, but on conquering and settling in Anglo-Saxon Britain, being composed of small bands that were already in Britain and Ireland that worked together for a period of time to accomplish their goals.[20]

Conquests
Eventually, the Vikings settled in target areas and turned to farming, as e.g. in the Danelag in Britain, and the adjacent coast of France. The latter is attributed to Rollo, a Viking leader who seized militarily what is now Normandy in 879, and formally in 911 when Charles the Simple of West Francia granted him the Lower Seine.[18] This became a precursor to the Viking expansion that established important trade posts and agrarian settlements deep into Frankish territory, English territory, and much of what is now European Russian territory.[19] The Vikings had taken control of most of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms by the 870s, which was after the time of the Great Heathen Army that swept the Anglo-Saxon rulers away from power in 865. This army focused not on raiding, but on conquering and settling in Anglo-Saxon Britain, being composed of small bands that were already in Britain and Ireland that worked together for a period of time to accomplish their goals.[20]

The Vikings were also able to establish an extended period of economic and political rule of much of Ireland, England, and Scotland during the Norse Ivarr Dynasty that started in the late 9th century and lasted until 1094.[21] In Ireland, coastal fortifications known as longphorts were established in many places after initial raidings, and they developed into trading posts and settlements over time. Quite a few modern towns in Ireland were founded in this way, including Dublin, Limerick and Waterford. The Vikings also held territories in Scotland. In Russia, the Vikings founded the kingdom of Gardarike, centering on Kiev in present day Ukraine.

Weapons

Warships
Main article: Viking ships

Much of the Vikings' success was due to the technical superiority of their shipbuilding. Their ships proved to be very fast. These boats have a shallow draft of around a meter of water.[26] Viking longships were built with speed and flexibility in mind, which allowed Norse builders to craft strong yet elegant ships. These long narrow ships could accommodate 50–60 seamen who powered the ship by rowing, as well as a complement of warriors, and so able to carry sizeable forces at speed to land wherever advantageous. Due to their shallow draft, Viking ships could land directly on sandy beaches practically anywhere on a coast, enabling them to bypass well-fortified harbours.[22] These ships could also navigate rivers in Britain and on the Continent, with raids reported far up rivers such as the Elbe, the Weser, the Rhine, the Seine and the Loire, the Thames, and many more. Vikings also navigated the extensive network of rivers in Eastern Europe, but they would more often engage in trade than in raiding.

Depending on local resources, the ships were mainly built from oak, though some with pine, but all with hewn planks that preserved the wood grain unbroken, resulting in light, but very strong and flexible strakes. Steering was accomplished with a single rudder in the stern.[23] There was a relatively short mast that allowed fast rigging and unrigging. The low mast, built for speed when the winds were favourable, could often easily pass under bridges erected in rivers.[24] These masts were designed to maneuver under the fortified bridges that Charles the Bald of West Francia created from 848 to 877.[25]
// My comment: This sounds improbable. The bridges would have had to be very high, or the masts very short - too short for a sail large enough to propel the ship. However, the masts had footings designed to make them easy to lower and raise, which would be a much more plausible solution to the bridge problem.//

The close to 28 meters long and five meters wide Gokstad ship is often cited as an example of a typical Viking ship.[27] Variants of these ships were built with a deeper hull for transporting goods, but what they added in hull depth and durability they sacrificed in speed and mobility. These cargo ships, knarr, were built to be sturdy and solid, rather than Drakkar warships which were built to be fast.[28] There is a mention of the Knörr being used as warships in poems written by skalds. Specifically, the poem "Lausavisor" by Vígfúss Víga-Glúmsson describes a Knörr being used as a battleship.[29]

Seafaring military strategies

The fast design of Viking ships was essential to their hit-and-run raids. For instance, in the sacking of Frisia in the early 9th century, Charlemagne mobilized his troops as soon as he heard of the raid, but found no Vikings by the time he arrived.[30] Their ships gave the Vikings an element of surprise. Traveling in small bands, they could easily go undetected, swiftly enter a village or monastery, pillage and collect booty, and leave before reinforcements arrived.[31] Vikings understood the advantages of the longships' mobility and used them to a great extent. These small fleets brutally but effectively scared locals and made it difficult for English and Frankish territories to counter these alien tactics.

Viking ships were not designed for battle at sea, as this was a form of warfare that the Vikings very rarely engaged in, hence Vikings would rarely try to ram ships in the open sea. Vikings did attack ships, not with the intent to destroy them, but rather to board and seize them. Some survivors of sea battles were pressed into guarding the ships during land skirmishes.[39]

While naval Viking battles were not as common as battles on land, they did occur. As they had little to fear from other European countries invading the inhospitable regions of Scandinavia, most naval battles were fought amongst Vikings themselves, "Dane against Norwegian, Swede against Norwegian, Swede against Dane."[33] Most Viking-on-Viking naval battles were little more than infantry battles on a floating platform. Viking fleets would lash their boats together, their prows facing the enemy. When they got close enough, the fighters would throw ballast stones, spears and use their longbows. Archers would be positioned in the back of the ships protected by a shield wall formation constructed in the front of the ship.[34] Depending on the size of the defending fleet, some would attack from smaller craft to flank the bigger ships.

Viking fleets of over a hundred ships did occur, but these fleets usually only banded together for one single—and temporary—purpose, being composed of smaller fleets each led by its own chieftain, or of different Norse bands. This was most often seen in the Francia raids between 841 and 892. They can be attributed to the fact that it was during this time that the Frankish aristocracy began paying off Vikings and buying mercenaries in return for protection from Viking raids. Thus, there appeared rudimentary structures of Viking armies.[32]

Battle tactics on land

In the 860s, the formation of the Great Heathen Army brought about a more organized type of warfare for the Vikings. Large squads of raiders banded together to attack towns and cities, landing from fleets comprising hundreds of ships.[36]

Even in larger formations, their battle tactics contained elements of surprise. They never arranged battle times. Deceit, stealth, and ruthlessness were not seen as cowardly.[43] Whenever possible, they would recconoitre the location and strength of potential defending forces. "Vikings were notorious for laying ambushes and using woods to lay in wait for armies approaching along established roads."[38]

If confronted by an enemy army, raiders would usually try to evade and escape, having come to plunder, not to fight. If a battle could not be avoided, they would form up in a shield wall for defense, and for attack they would create a wedge formation, with their best men at the front of this wedge. They would throw spears, and rush this wedge through enemy lines where they could engage in hand-to-hand combat, which was their forte.[38]

Sagas of the Viking Age often mention Berserkers. These fabled Viking warriors are said to have spiritual magical powers from the god of war Odin[40] that allowed them to become impervious to injuries on the battlefield.[41] While these stories are exaggerated, the term berserks is rooted in truths about Viking warriors who were able to enter an intense, trance-like state whereupon they would "engage in reckless fighting."[2] These warriors were greatly feared by Christians in Frankish and English regions who viewed such men as satanic.

In time, making winter camp in raided territories became a widely used form of short-term occupation by Viking warbands. From these they would descend on "monasteries, towns and royal estates"[9] after the harvests had been gathered, and then use the sites as fortified hubs from which they launched raids deeper inland. The Franks rarely, if ever, campaigned during the winter even under Charlemagne, and once the Vikings had 'dug in' as it were, it was incredibly difficult for armies to be raised in order to root them out due to the resource-intensive nature of mustering and maintaining an army; especially when living off the land was not an option. Occupying warbands would then withdraw in early spring before the weather turned against them and armies could be raised again.

Additionally, during inland raiding campaigns, the loot from a given target would be stored in a warband's ship while the raiding party proceeded by land to a rendezvous point.[9] By doing this, Vikings could ensure the safety of their plunder from counter-raids were, as well as drastically increasing the amount they could carry.

Common weapons
Main article: Viking Age arms and armour

Stones and slings
In Skáldskaparmál (The Language of Poetry), written in the 13th century, Snorri Sturluson relates the myth of Thor duelling Hrungnir, a jotun armed with a whetstone. Similar stones, bars of slate, were used as ballast on Viking ships, and would often be thrown in the initial stages of a battle at sea **, as in the battle of Fimreite. The Vikings were also familiar with the use of the sling.

Spear

The most common weapon in the Viking arsenal was the spear. They were inexpensive and effective weapons. In the late Roman Iron Age (ending c. 500 CE), the Norse were reputed for their preference of and prowess with the light spear. The wooden shaft of the Viking spear was between two and three meters long. There were two types of spears; one was made for throwing while the other was generally used for thrusting. The shafts were similar, but the tips of throwing spears were roughly thirty centimetres while the thrusting spears were close to sixty.[2] Spears were sometimes used as projectile weapons in the occasional naval fight, as well as during raids onshore and in battle. The spear was popular because it was inexpensive and had a longer reach than the sword, making it the most common battlefield weapon all over the world, despite popular belief.[46]

Archery

Another common weapon in the Viking arsenal was the bow. "In combat, archers formed up behind a line of spearmen who defended against a mounted attack."[47]

Bows

One bow found in an Irish grave was of yew with a rounded rectangular cross section flattened toward the tips, which had been heat bent toward the belly's side. Other bows, either complete or in pieces, were made of yew and elm, as found in Hedeby.[48]
Arrows

Viking arrows have been found in pieces, usually of birch wood. Three feathers were used for fletching. "The Viking's long arrows are meant to be drawn to the ear for instinctive shooting, meaning that the archer does not sight on or even look at his arrow."[49]

Axe **
Main article: Axe

Axes were traditionally used for all kinds of farm labour and logging, as well as in construction and shipbuilding, but developed into a weapon in the turbulent Migration Age, which saw much internal raiding and warfare in Scandinavia. It was the first "siege weapon" for raiding enemy farmhouses, where a spear or a sword could do little damage. Eventually it was adapted for use in general warfare [2], and became the most common close-quarter weapon to supply the spear.

Axes varies in size from small hatchets to to Danish axes well over a meter in length.[50]. War axes had a much slimmer blade than work axes, about the thickness of a meat cleaver, hence the heads, while large, usually weighed only 0.8–0.9 kg. Unsuitable as utility tools, they were light and fast weapons, requiring little swinging power, not depending on gravity and momentum to do most of the work.[51]

King Magnus of Norway inherited his axe from his patron saint father, Olav Haraldsson. He named this axe Hel, the name of the Norse goddess of death (Christians associated this name with the word Hell). The axe of Magnus is still portrayed in the Norwegian coat of arms.[51]

Sword **
Main article: Viking sword

A sword was considered a personal object amongst Vikings. Warriors named their swords, as they felt such objects guarding their lives deserved identities.[55] A sword, depending on the make, was often associated with prestige and value due to the importance of honour in the Viking Age.
All Viking swords are developed from continental types, but the majority were produced in Scandinavia itself; e.g. Norway had ample access to weapons grade iron and steel, with some researchers calculating the output of Southern Norway alone to ca. 200 000 tons from 950 CE to 1350 CE (https://forskersonen.no/arkeologi-historie-meninger/i-vikingtida-stod-innlandet-for-ein-enorm-jernproduksjon/1684933). Frankish swords enjoyed the highest status, but of the 3000 - 4000 Viking swords found in Norway, only around 50 blades are of the so-called «Ulfberth» types.

Locally made viking swords were pattern welded and most commonly decorated with copper inlays and icons, featuring a fuller down the centre of the blade in order to reduce the weight of the blade;[53] a number of single-bladed swords around a meter in length have been unearthed, particularly in West Norway and Trøndelag, but the most commonly found swords in Viking graves are double-edged with blades averaging around 80 cm long and 5 cm wide **.

Defensive equipment

While few intact helmets have been recovered from Viking burial sites (often just fragments of metal), contemporary depictions of Viking warriors do show them wearing helmets, which has led some historians, like Anne Pedersen, to suspect that most warriors wore helmets made of leather rather than metal.[53]

Another piece of defensive equipment used by warriors was a shield.[46] Shields had handholds on the inside and were about 1 m in diameter.[40] The shield itself was round and not oval-shaped which made it easier to carry and move with;[46] however, it left the legs and some of the lower body exposed. Shields were made out of softwood, particularly linden tree (Tilia cordata / http://www.woodassistant.com/wood-database/basswood//)**.

Fragments of chain mail have been uncovered in particularly wealthy Viking graves.[53] Such armour would have been expensive due to the material, time, and labour costs required, and presumably most chain mail was acquired thrugh plunder, and not production. **
The medieval «King's Mirror» mentions armour of linen*, and common warriors would have used gambeson-like garments of linen, wool cloth or leather for protection, a vápntreyja, often mentioned in the sagas.

(* The King's Mirror, XXXVII https://www.gutenberg.org/files/61264/61264-h/61264-h.htm)

(** Pedersen: https://archive.org/details/DeNorskeVikingesverdEnTypologisk-kronologiskStudieOverVikingetidens_105/page/n9/mode/2up )

//// Odds and ends

On iron:
Abstract
The thousands of iron production sites scattered across the mountain and valley regions of Norway are testament to a massive surplus production from the latter half of the Viking Age throughout the High Middle Ages. Archaeological and historical sources indicate that this production was carried out by singular farms. Still, the amount of iron produced surpassed both local and regional demands and constituted a regional and interregional commodity in the period 950–1300 AD.
Place, publisher, year, edition, pages
Stockholm: Kungl. Vitterhets historie och antikvitetsakademien , 2019. Vol. 114, no 2, p. 75-87
Fornvännen, ISSN 0015-7813, E-ISSN 1404-9430, Vol. 114, no 2, p. 75-87
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1386121&dswid=1747

A piece of real, bona fide original research:

Or at least a thought: Let’s say chain mail and armour weigh in at a total of 20 kg. On a ship with 100 men, that would amount to 2 tons of extra weight - perhaps a not inconsiderable extra load. Add to that, that while wearing mail would be a lifesaver on the battlefield, it would be a death sentence at sea. So maybe there were reasons for Vikings not spending a raiding seasons’ worth of booty buying one. Pulling it off some dead enemy and using it while engaging in fun and games, yes, ok, but then just leave it going home. ///

Just to check

Hi, the sentence on reacquiring relics " obtained these books from the heathen army with out pure money" seems contradictory. Without money? With our money? Without money, as opposed to unminted gold? Can someone check the source? T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Hel of a word

Hi, I'd like to replace "(Christians associated this name with the word Hell)" with "((Christians came to / would later/ use the word Hell to translate the biblical "inferno")" or some such. The original is a little vague. Not a native EN speaker, so unsure about the best wording, suggestions welcome. T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 18:49, 1 January 2023 (UTC)