Talk:Vicko Krstulović

His first name was not Vincenc

With all the restrictions I see (no new research, neutrality, no private opinions, verifiability...) you can find any number of excuses to take my comment away, and please do if you want. But for the sake of the truth, please verify yourself from any source you wish - and I can point you to many. Vincenc seems to be (from my Wikipedia research) the Czech & Slovenian variant of the name Vincentius (Latin), Vicenzo (Italian), Vincent (French & English) etc... It is true that Vicko, Vice and Vinko are some of the Croatian variants of this common name; and that they all sound a bit nick-namish & improper, and were possibly not allowed as "official" Christian names in the church (at time of child baptism), until some point in history. But I have never read or heard, in the case of Vicko Krstulovic who was my grandfather, that particular long variant (Vincenc) being used. I knew him personally for 25 years, read all books authored by him or written about him (5 or so), ditto for articles by or about him (~100, including 3 ex-Yugoslav Wiki pages) & physically saw several of his Identity Cards, Passports & Party Member cards ... and have known a couple of hundred people who personally had known him ... none of these sources mention the name "Vincenc" - always "Vicko". Would be interesting to know what document you possess that proves he was actually baptized as "Vincenc"? Rankosp (talk) 02:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

No problem, my apologies. It was entirely my own assumption when creating the Wikipedia article, on the grounds that the name is usually an abbreviation of "Vincenc" or "Vincenzo" or some form thereof.

If you have precise information regarding his political and military offices, please feel free to introduce them. It'll be my pleasure to arrange them properly into an appropriate infobox. -- Director (talk) 11:05, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, had a busy month. I can translate the "history of offices" entries from the Coratian Wiki page, they are pretty accurate - then you can re-arrange them. Rankosp (talk) 20:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. -- Director (talk) 02:05, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

§Rankosp (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC) Here is my English translation of the history of offices held by Vicko K. - as found on the Croatian and Serbian Wiki pages about Vicko. 1939-1944: Secretary of the Provincial Committee of the Yugoslav Communist Party for Dalmatia 1942-1943: Commander of the 4th Operative Zone of Croatia (within the "People's Liberation Army",

          nicknamed "Tito's Partisans")  

1943-1945: member of the Presidencies of "AVNOJ" (Anti-fascist Council for People`s Liberation of

          Yugoslavia) and "ZAVNOH" (ACPL of Croatia), respectively  

1945: Minister of Internal Affairs in the (first `Titoist`) Government of the Democratic Federal Croatia 1945-1963: Member (People`s Delegate) of the Croatian Parliament 1945-1967: Member (People`s Delegate) of the Federal Parliament of Yugoslavia 1946-1950: Minister of (initially) Labour and (later) Maritime Affairs (Merchant Marine) in the

          Government of the Federal People`s Republic of Yugoslavia 

1951: President of the Regional People`s Council (effectively: local government) of Dalmatia and

     political Secretary of the Regional Committee of the Croatian Communist Party for Dalmatia

1952-1953: President of the Presidium of the Parliament, People`s Republic of Croatia 1953: member of the Federal Executive Council (effectively: federal government of Yugoslavia) 1954-1959: President of a Committee in the Parliament of People`s Republic of Croatia 1959-1963: member of the Executive Council of that Parliament (effectively: Croatian government) 1963-1967: President of the Budget Calculation Committee of the Federal Parliament, Socialist Fedral

          Republic of Yugoslavia 

1967-1988: Member of the `Federation Council` of the SFRY (a federal ``consulting`` body of mainly

          retired, former functionaries and potentates)

Both the Croatian & Serbian pages fail to talk much of another aspect of Vicko, beyond that of the loyal Titoist functionary: he was an early rebel against Tito's dictatorship, pre-dating some modern liberal critics of Tito by decades. But, because his criticism of Tito's regime was not from a standpoint of (anti-communist) liberal democracy or conservatism (but rather from a "purist communist``, Trotsky-like standpoint) - modern sources (Serb, Croat & Western alike) are happy to falsely bury him behind the facade of a "regular" Titoist. Ironically, so are the remnants of old Tito loyalists - unwilling to dwell upon Vicko`s ``betrayal`` of pure Titoism. §Rankosp (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:28, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Some inaccuracies in the text of this page

I visited this page after about a year - I see a lot of good new content, but also some statements that are not true, listed below. I realize there are few English-language sources, an exception being http://www.hoover.org/news/farewell-dalmatia-vicko-krstulovic-papers-come-hoover, but if someone on the team understands Croatian/Serbian, you could check the books of Vicko's memoirs or other ex-Yugoslav sources.

1. It says the "1st Split Partisan Detachment which was made of 44 fighters" - but the linked detailed Wiki page states the "detachment was formed on 11 August, and consisted of 66 members"? I don't know which one is correct.

2. It says that "Vicko was elected as a member of AVNOJ" (a parliament-like body of a few hundred members) - which is loosely speaking true, but more precisely and significantly, in November 1943 (see both the Croatian & Serbian Wikis), he was also elected as a member of the Presidency (Presidium) of the AVNOJ, a more elite, government-like body of perhaps a dozen members.

3. It is not quite accurate that "After his death, his son Vladimir Krstulović gave all of Vicko's possessions and archives to the Historical museum in Belgrade". While Vladimir indeed donated the major share of such archives *that was in the house where Vicko (part-time) and Vladimir (permanently) resided in Belgrade*, another, smaller share of possessions that were in the house where Vicko mostly lived towards the end, in Split, was donated to the Croatian Archives in Split by Vicko's middle son Viborg (of whose existence I will talk in the next paragraph). Finally, the third tranche of Vicko's archives was donated - again by Vladimir, but much later (in 2015) - to the Hoover Library in Stanford, CA (of which the web page http://www.hoover.org/news/farewell-dalmatia-vicko-krstulovic-papers-come-hoover writes in much detail).

4. The statements that Vicko "had 3 children: Maksim, Nataša and Vladimir" and "2 children, Maksim and Nataša were with him during the Battle of Neretva" are incorrect. The middle son Viborg, born 1938 and deceased 2004, was younger than the twins Maksim, Nataša - and older than Vladimir. He was named for the Finnish city Vijpuri (Viborg in Swedish) conquered by Stalin in 1938. He - not Maksim - was the one who (quoting from this Wiki page): "fell off a horse and injured his arm which would never heal again".

5. While regarding Maksim's murder indeed "some suspect that it was done by the Yugoslav State Security", many others have suspected different executors, ranging from extreme Croatian Ustashe or Serb Chetnik immigrants, via common criminals or jealous husbands/boyfriends - to British Security. A possibility remains that different individuals in the "conspiracy chain" belonged to different groups listed above, and perhaps they collaborated more due to practical necessity than to long-term common sympathies... but the fact it happened in the middle of London (not far from elite neighbourhoods such as Chelsea, Hyde Park and Westminster) and that he had received threats from, or at least expressed paranoia against, people known to several witnesses - days before the murder (and this was apparently communicated to police at least after, if not before) makes it hard to believe the perpetrators *could not* have been publicly named (if not caught) so many decades later. In all likelihood, some if not all of the culprits struck some type of deal with British authorities, granting them immunity for the deed.

6. The statement "Vladimir Krstulović was responsible for the publishing of Vicko's memoirs in 2012" is technically true... this was the 1st volume (1905-43) of the memoirs. There have been 2 more volumes: the 2nd (1943-45) in 2013 and the 3rd (1945-88) in 2014. For some reason, none of the ex-Yugo Wiki pages on Vicko (Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Slovene) mention the 2nd and 3rd. A related book by another author, Vladeta Vojinovic - about Maksim Krstulovic - cited under References of your English Wiki page - was also published with major support from Vladimir Krstulović to the author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rankosp (talk • contribs) 02:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Inaccurate statement about doctors "NOT KNOWING" about Vicko's pacemaker

In the "FINAL YEARS" section, it states that doctors at the Split hospital performed a procedure (that eventually proved deadly for him, precisely because he had a pacemaker) - "not knowing" that he had a pacemaker. At the very least - this is suspect. There is strong suspicion they did know; and definitely no proof that they did not know. I am one of his grandsons, and I know for a fact that some family members challenged the "not knowing" narrative at the time of his death. The hospital, at the time, was not able to prove "they did not know"; albeit it was not possible to prove "they did know" either, since they were not very co-operating and quickly shut down the investigation. What is known is that he was politically controversial in Split at the time, and that rumors were circulating about the book of memoirs he was preparing (which eventually got published 25 years later) potentially containing compromising details about many political figures still living. So it is reasonable to assume that many political enemies would have been happy to see him gone (players from all ends of the spectrum: his old "Tito loyalist" adversaries who resented his would-be criticism of "blindly obedient" Tito-ism; his even older adversaries from the extreme Croatian nationalist, former pro-Ustasha school; and even the more recently emerging "pro-Western-liberal" ones, who resented his continued praise for marxism-leninism & socialism, not welcome in the post-Gorbachov era and "bring down the Wall" atmosphere). In other words - motive (for murder) was certainly there; the target was easy (82 years old, with a pacemaker, requiring therapy where one of the alternatives indeed does clash with having a pacemaker) - a piece of cake. From a medical-professional standpoint, it is obvious that a fairly sophisticated military hospital near the end of the 20th century should have known better, before applying electricity-based therapy - they simply should have checked whether or not the patient has any "counter-indicative" conditions such as "wearing a pacemaker". Even if there was no murderous intention - they should have been charged for "criminal negligence"; and in any modern Western country that would have happened. At the time in Yugoslavia - it was difficult to fight what essentially was the Government (i.e. military). Rankosp (talk) 17:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)