Talk:Vibhajyavāda

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Please follow Wiki conventions: comments are posted in chronological order. The newest ones go at the bottom. Please also use headings to set off new topics.--Stephen Hodge 17:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Vibhajyavada/Vibhajjavada

When i look at a Sanskrit dictionary & Pali dictionary and make a comparison on those word. i noticed that it have a slight different meaning. Vibhajjavada (Pali) Vibhajyavada (Sanskrit). Dictionary:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/

http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ (Sanskrit, Tamil & Pahlavi) 218.208.24.235 01:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither word appears in either dictionary that I can see. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 20:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

hi Nat,

for http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ pls key in "Vibhajja" you will get:

Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail (˚ -- ) D iii.229 (˚vyākaraṇīya pañha "discriminating reply" trsln); A ii.46 (˚vacana analysis). -- ˚vāda the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravāda, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -- ˚vādin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha Mhvs 5, 271; Tikp 366; VbhA 130; cp. Kvu trsln introd. p. 38.

for http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ pls key in "Vibhajya" you will get:

vibhAjya mfn. to be divided or apportioned , divisible Mn. ix , 219. 05:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)~~

This argument from dictionary definitions is specious. The Cologne Digital Dictionary is based on rather old sources, adequate for standard Sanskrit, but which does not reflect Buddhist usages of Sanskrit. For something a bit more up to date, look at Edgerton Dictionary of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, where vibhajyavada, vibhajya-vyakarana etc are listed. In all cases, Edgerton glosses vibhajya as "analysis", "distinguishing" or "understanding in detail". It is also clear from Sarvāstivādin sources that Vibhajyavāda is exactly the same thing as Vibhajjavāda.

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This page was created to give a description about the 1) Ancestor of Theravada 2) The Concept promoted by Theravada. Theravada use Pali as their religion language. Sanskrit word don't have a place here. When i look at a Sanskrit dictionary & Pali dictionary and make a comparison on those word. i noticed that it have a slight different meaning. Vibhajjavada (Pali) Vibhajyavada (Sanskrit). I will modified it and move it to another page.

Dictionary:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/

http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ (Sanskrit, Tamil & Pahlavi) - 218.208.24.235 00:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this argument. The information that we have an Wikipedia so far says that there were other Vibhajyavada school, not only Theravada. For instance, Schools of Buddhism says that the Dharmaguptakas were also Vibhajyavadins. By English-language tradition, the default language for talking about Buddhism in general is Sanskrit (or BHS). "Vibhajyavada" and "Vibhajjavada" are roughly equal in Google hits, with a small advantage for Vibhajyavada. Charles Muller's Digital Dictionary of Buddhism also has it as "Vibhajyavada". Nevertheless, I'm going to leave the article where it is for the time being. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 20:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

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If u search in google, u will realized that website that belong to Mahayana & Vajrayana list it as "Teaching Of Seperation" or " Doctrine Of Distinction". While website that belong to Theravada list it as "Teaching Of Analysis" Or "Doctrine Of Analysis".

"Vibhajjavada" was a Pali word, the Pali language was currently used by Theravadins as their religious language. No other Buddhist sect use Pali. Pali is based on a dialect of Middle Indo-Aryan that was probably spoken in central India during the Buddha's time. It currently no longer used as a common spoken langauge in India. If u wana know the true meaning of a Chinese word, will u ask a Chinese or a Japanese to translate the word correctly, even thou the Japanese may had learned Chinese at University Of Tokyo and created his own Chinese Dictionary?

Here was meaning of "Vibhajjavada" from Theravadins themself:

http://watthai.net/bluws/ebud/ebdha136.htm "Vibhajjavada, the "Doctrine of Analysis" or the "Religion of Reason" though the two terms are identical." by Maung Kyauk Seinn, Burma

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/councils.html "The members of this Council also gave a royal seal of approval to the doctrine of the Buddha, naming it the Vibhajjavada, the Doctrine of Analysis." by Venerable Dr. Rewata Dhamma, Sri Lanka

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/way_of_mindfulness.htm "The Buddha is the Master of analytic knowledge and his doctrine is called the Teaching of Analysis [vibhajjavada]." by Soma Thera, Sri Lanka

http://www.dailynews.lk/2003/11/24/fea06.html "Buddhism is a doctrine of analysis ('Vibhajjavada')" by Aryadasa Ratnasinghe, Sri Lanka

Other buddhist sect may argue about the true meaning of "Vibhajjavada", but it will be just like a Japanese arguing about the true meaning of a Chinese word with a Chinese from mainland China.

regards—Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.208.24.235 (talk • contribs)

POV-biased Censorship

Please do not remove material just because it does not comply with your POV. This amounts censorship. Mention of the Sarvastivadin views is quite justified and informative for the general reader who might otherwise conclude that Vibhajjavada really was orthodox, while in fact, historically speaking, the majority of Buddhists in India would have deemed Vibhajjavada as heretical. The aim of Wikipedia is to be NPOV.--Stephen Hodge 17:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Disputed Content

1) Pls prove that 'Vibhajya' (Sanskrit) mean 'Analysis',

2) "The followers of Vibhajjavāda comprised the ancestors of the Mahīśāsaka (P: Mahiṃsāsaka), the Kāśyapīya (P: Kassapiya), the Dharmaguptaka (P: Dhammaguttaka) and the Tāmraparnīya (P: Tambapanniya)" is the point of Contention.

"During Asoka's council (around 250 B.C.) the Sthaviras spawned the Sarvastivadins and the Vibhajyavadins... Other major groups spawned by the Sthavira tradition include the Sautrantikas and Dharmaguptakas. " by Crim, Keith (ed.). The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989). Reprint; originally pub. as Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions, 1981; pg. 151.

"The Hinayana enumerates the traditions of 18 schools that developed out of the original community... Two other schools that splintered from the Sthaviras are the Sarvastivada, out of which, around 150 B.C.E., came the Sautrantikas, and the Vibhajyavadins, who see themselves as orthodox Sthaviras. Out of this last school arose the Theravada, Mahishasakas, and Kashyapiyas; from the Mahishasakas came the Dharmaguptakas." by Fischer-Schreiber, Ingrid, et al. The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy & Religion: Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zen. Shambhala: Boston (English: pub. 1994; orig. German: 1986); pg. 129.

pls see -> http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_256.html

--218.208.24.235 04:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I would seem from your comments that you do not have access to a decent reference library. This is a pity because it prevents you from making intelligent judgements about information in Wiki Buddhist articles. I'll try and fill you in on a few things.

First, as I have already mentioned, Monier-Williams is a good basic dictionary for general Sanskrit literature but it is pretty hopeless for Buddhist materials -- there were very few published editions available at that time. The standard work now for Buddhist usages in Franklin Edgerton's Dictionary of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit.

Secondly, vibhajja / vibhajya is a gerund derived from vibhajati. Any meanings that the verb has will be transferred to the gerund or other parts of speech. Thus, if you look under vibhajati in Edgerton, you will find this: "explains / understands in detail". He gives these examples from Buddhist Sanskrit texts: arthaṃ vibhaktum (Divy 494.26), ācikṣati deśati prajñāpayati vivarati vibhajati (Mv.III.408.18). Notice how the latter example parallels the equivalent Pali chain of synonyms. The menaing is the same.

Then he gives several derivatives:

• vibhajana: differentiation, classification
• vibhajitar: one who classifies, differentiates, explains in detail
• Vibhajyavādin: name of a school, cf. Pali Vibhajjavādin
• vibhajya-vyākaraṇa: elucidation by analyzing or distinguishing

It is therefore quite clear from this that the Sanskrit form vibhajya covers the same range of meaning as the Pali equivalent.

As for your other point, I wasn't sure whether to laugh or not. Are you seriously using those two books as your reference material ?? The information you reproduce from both of them is completely wrong and borders on nonsense. The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy & Religion is notorious: if you have a copy, the best place for it is in the dustbin and that might save you making such a fool of yourself. Get one of the recent Buddhist encyclopaedias such as the OUP Keown work. Look at the bottom of the Vibhajjavāda article. What do you see there ? Do you know who Lance Cousins is ? He is President of the Pali Text Society and the accepted authority on early Theravada history. Do you seriously think that his work is less reliable than Fischer-Schreiber, Ingrid, et al. who nobody has ever heard of ? Not only that, but Cousins bases his work on decades of published epigraphical studies, the huge mount of work by Bareau and Lamotte whose conclusions all corroborate Cousins and are regarded as standard in Buddhist studies. If you at serious, read the work of the relevent experts in the field and spare us your ignorance. I the meantime, I shall continue to revert to the version which accurately reflects modern scholarship on the matter.--Stephen Hodge 17:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I accepted your point. Your fact from Lance Cousins will remain.--218.208.24.235 00:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. That is the sensible thing to do.--Stephen Hodge 14:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes

1. The idea that the Tambapanniyas did not have any doctrinal innovations is wrong. See the account given by Bhavya and Vinitadeva of the relationship between the schools. Also Lance Cousins paper, "On the Vibhajjavadins" (reference given above). 2. Inclusion of the Sarvastivadin view of the Vibhajjavadins is quite legitimate. Deletion of this passage without any discussion by a recent editor suggests suppression or censorship of inconvenient facts.--Stephen Hodge 01:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

See also my previous message above, which I quote again here: "Please do not remove material just because it does not comply with your POV. This amounts censorship. Mention of the Sarvastivadin views is quite justified and informative for the general reader who might otherwise conclude that Vibhajjavada really was orthodox, while in fact, historically speaking, the majority of Buddhists in India would have deemed Vibhajjavada as heretical. The aim of Wikipedia is to be NPOV."--Stephen Hodge 01:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

From Pali Canon

The quote from the Pali Canon I added, suggests that the general direction of this article is a bit off. I only recognizes analysis. But it seems that true meaning of Vibhajjavada is more like discrimination: what is good, what is bad?Greetings, Sacca 04:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

On discrimination

"Discrimination" does not neccessary mean defining "what is good" or "what is bad", but it can go into a much broader sense of "defining", especially when it comes to Dhamma itself. Maybe it's the english translation which give this idea.

If we go into the meaning of "Vibhajja" in Pāli, it means: "having divided or analysed." (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)

"Vibhajjavāda" in full means: The words of reasons or "the religion of reason" (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)

and interestingly...

vibhajjavādī means "one who accepts the Theravāda doctrine" (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)

Another source from Pali-text society's English-Pali Dictionary...

Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail (˚ -- ) D iii.229 (˚vyākaraṇīya pañha "discriminating reply" trsln); A ii.46 (˚vacana analysis). -- ˚vāda the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravāda, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -- ˚vādin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha Mhvs 5, 271; Tikp 366; VbhA 130; cp. Kvu trsln introd. p. 38.

Sorry for my POV... = ) I find this whole article quite alright.

Buddhosavaka (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

vague emptiness

The article is vague and does not say anything meaningful. From an Abrahmist perspective it is possible to say how Judaism differes from Christianity and within Christianity Protestant from Catholic with specific doctrinal examples e.g. transubstantiantion and what thet means. WHY can someone who is familiar with this subject not do the same for these schools. At present all you can see are arguements about if Pali or Sanskrit is the correct etymology, BUT nothing about what are the differences in a supposedyl heretical group or school or label. The word "some" is used, very vague how many? of what degree? and what kind of differences?

How can anyone spend so much time writing this ENCYCLOPEDIC article without the slighetest idea of how buddhism may vary between adherants rather than arhants beggars belief.