Talk:Ventriloquism/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Ventriloquism. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Requirements

What are the requirements for adding a page to Wikipedia about a specific ventriloquist? (ApostleJoe (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)) In 1938, the Mercury Theater of the Air, directed by Orson Welles, aired weekly dramas, such as Treasure Island, Dracula and Julius Caesar, over the CBS network every Sunday night at 8 pm.. On October 30th 1938, it aired H.G. Wells’ The War of the Worlds rendered in the style of a radio news story with bulletins from reporters played by actors in the Mercury Theater. Ten minutes into the program, the announcer said: “Ladies and gentlemen, I have a grave announcement to make. Incredible as it may seem, strange beings who landed in New Jersey tonight are the vanguard of an invading army from Mars.” Then reporters announced snake-like monsters emerging from space ships and slaughtering Americans with their ray guns in Grovers Mill, New Jersey.

Although it had identified itself as a fictional drama at the beginning of the program, listeners who tuned it later understandably were confused by the mock news bulletins. Consequently, their were many calls to CBS stations and newspapers. 832 people called the New York Times. Although this represented only a minute fraction of the radio audience, the Times turned it into a front page story.

Thus, 1938 is the correct year.

How the Art is Produced

Information should be added on how the art is produced. -DSC

Agreed; that was the main reason I came to the article. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 14:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Double-agreed. The majority of this article is about ventriloquists, which is technically a separate issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.122.140.195 (talk) 23:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

This might be interesting to add?

http://www.brownielocks.com/ventriloquism.html

213.93.102.208 (talk) 22:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

A very good point. I agree. The art or profession should be separated from the practitioners also some mentions of the more notable ones could be made. Given there are a substantial number of ventriloquists such as Lester and Roy, great contributors to vaudeville; Edgar Bergen to radio and Paul Winchell, Senor Winces, Jimmy Nelson, Warren Chaney and Shari Lewis to early television; Jeff Dunham and Willie Tyler to late television; such an article could be quite valuable...and interesting.Neverland1 (talk) 14:16, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Claims concerning tribesmen/diviners/religions/oracles/etc.

I have deleted the second and third paragraphs of the first section, because the comments made there concerning tribesmen/diviners/religions/oracles/etc. were unreferenced and sounded to me like prejudiced guesswork on the part of the author. If these claims had any basis in research findings, then they should be so referenced.--Gloster 16:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

OK I have added in a section on its origins and its connections to necromancy with references. The one I can't track down is "The Magic Arts of Necromancy and Ventriloquism as Cited in the First Byzantine Period Sources" seemingly reprinted in the Byzantinische Zeitschrift but I can't track it down in the online catalogues but someone who speaks Greek might be able to shed more light on that. (Emperor 02:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

I have removed references to necromancy and to "the spirits of the dead"-type deception because, again, there are no references. In the absence of reference material which ties back to primary sources, especially on topics such as these that cross cultural paradigms, it's way too easy to inject one's own biases into these articles. (Gloster 20:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

The references for this are in the reference section so I have added it back in. (Emperor 20:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

The remaining paragraph is basically gobbledygook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.122.140.195 (talk) 23:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Where is the evidence that it developed in the 16th century? and where did this happen? Alchemist Jack (talk) 21:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Orson Welles

(By the way, what does the Orson Welles material above have to do with ventriloquism?)

Somebody please add information on how throwing of the voice is accomplished. 69.61.145.153 18:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The voice is not THROWN as such, the ventriloquist merely speaks without moving his (or her) lips.

There is quite a bit more to it than talking without moving the lips however, your point on "how" is an important one and should be summarized in the article. Neverland1 (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Ventriloquism techniques

This article currently claims that "Ventriloquism is an act of stagecraft in which a person (a ventriloquist) manipulates his or her voice so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere."

As far as I have always understood, "throwing your voice" is actually a myth. I read a library book on ventriloquism in high school, and the book claimed that learning ventriloquism does NOT involve making your voice sound like it's coming from elsewhere. Human perception of sound position is not very good anyway, and so if you talk without moving your lips while another character lip syncs the same words, it LOOKS like the other character is talking and that's good enough -- especially on stage or TV, where no one could tell the difference.

So basically ventriloquism is not really about voice manipulation at all, so much as it is about performance and misdirection, as well as practicing making certain sounds without moving your lips.

On a related note, I've watched Edgar Bergen on old video clips, and I was surprised to see that his mouth moves and he makes very little effort to disguise it. this video, for example -- Bergen's mouth moves a lot compared to more recent ventriloquists such as Ronn Lucas.

Not editing the article yet because I wonder how much of this is appropriate to put in.--Kazim27 17:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

That was my understanding. It is misdirection through cunning stagecraft that is a combination of skill (not moving your mouth obviously), acting (making the doll move as if it were a real talking person - notice in that clip how he exagerates the movements of the doll) and psychology (largely through Conversation analysis, non-verbal cues, etc. so we actually swap out attention to the doll when it is their turn - he does this in various ways the most obious is just turning towards them as ou would with a real person). You'd probably need a good source for it but it seems legitimate to say - this says as much. [1] (Emperor 04:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC))

"One difficulty ventriloquists face is that all the sounds that they make must be made with lips slightly separated. For the labial sounds f, v, b, p, and m, the only choice is to replace them with others." Not the only choice. I'm not an expert, but an alternative is to choose those problem words to turn one's head (perhaps to face the dummy) and speak out of the offstage side of one's mouth, or to use other misdirection. WHPratt (talk) 03:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The article should point out the incongruity of Bergen making his reputation on the radio! You'd think that radio is one theatre wherein ventriloquism is superfluous. WHPratt (talk) 03:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Ventriloquism strictly an illusion

To second the above comment, mention should be made in the introduction that to actually "throw one's voice" is a physical impossibility.Orthotox (talk) 05:04, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

An IP address dropped this in the middle of the modern-day ventriloquism paragraph and then User:Kennnyw editted it including adding inappropriate block capitals. It is out of place, of dubious relevance and origin, unsupported by references, etc. so I am taking it out and putting it here.

ACADEMIC WORKS ON THE SUBJECT OF VENTRILOQUISM: The late Edgar Bergen personally signed a highly regarded Masters Thesis entitled "The Revival of Ventriloquism in America" written by Kenneth Warren (popular stage/TV ventriloquist KENNY WARREN) at the University of Mississippi. The story of Bergen's career influence was a considerable portion of the thesis, comprising an entire chapter. Writes Bergen: "This is the most complete treatise on ventriloquism I have ever read." The thesis contains one of the most detailed and concentrated ACADEMIC studies of the history of ventriloquism ever written. Interestingly, it is Kenny Warren's ventriloquist figure "Joey O'Leary" that maintains the distinction of having appeared in more television commercials than any other ventriloquist puppet. "Joey's" American Tourister Luggage television commercial (his ventriloquist partner did "his" technical operation unseen, behind-the-scenes) was nominated for the advertising industry's prestigious Clio award. The commercial remains a classic within the ventriloquial community and currently may be viewed on various Internet web sites.

Some of it may be possibly worth editting into relevant places (with reliable sources) although if Kenny Warren and KennyW have any connection then conflict of interet issues surface so it'd be best for them to suggest edits here and some other editor add them in if they seem relevant and well supported. (Emperor 00:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC))

Mallory Lewis?

So what about this lady? Is she a ventriloquist herself - as suggested by the photograph - or just a daughter? If she's known for being an artist she should be mentioned as such. --134.2.167.9 09:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Doll, Dummy, Puppet

What is considered the "proper" word? and isn't there a specific type of puppet that they use? 208.53.104.68 (talk) 19:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)amyanda2000

I've never personally heard "doll" used, but I've heard it been said "dummy" and "ventriloquist puppet". Either of those I would think should be OK. (ApostleJoe (talk) 13:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC))

I have seen (American) people using primarily "puppet", but also "doll". panglossa (talk) 06:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Good Question. Ventriloquist seldom refer to their "talking counterparts" as puppets and almost never as dolls. The preferable word is "figure" followed by "dummy." You point I think (and it is a good one), is that it should be covered in the article. Neverland1 (talk) 14:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Hearing / Vision

While the lengthy paragraph about aural location being dominated by visual location certainly makes a valid point, I think it could be moved to a less prominent place in the article as it is not essential to understand what Ventriloquism is. Besides, at least today, the psycho-acoustic location of the source of the voice hardly plays a role when the ventriloquist sits at a distance to the audience and is being heard over speakers only and there is no discrepancy between aural and visual location in the sense that the named paragraph describes. 62.152.162.107 (talk) 01:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Automatonophobia

I removed the reference to the film Magic because it doesn't have anything to do with the dummy actually coming to life, or anybody (except maybe the audience) being afraid of the same. It portrays a completely different mental disorder, in which the ventriloquist (Sir Anthony Hopkins) goes insane and believes his dummy Fats is a real person who tells him to murder his agent in order to conceal his madness. Fats' head happens to be so large and heavy that it makes an effective murder weapon.

There are other, usually humorous, cultural references to this type of idea (for example, in the Monty (comic strip)), which poke fun at ventriloquists by implying some of them aren't too tightly wrapped and behave as if their dummies are real. This might be nice to add; does anyone know if this is recognized in psychology and has a name? (Less serious than the homicidal schizophrenia in Magic.)

Also, I wonder if that is the real name of the phobia (and if it's spelled correctly). There is no citation for the name. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Ventriloqusim in Arab world This kind of act is not فامووس an Arab world. We do not know why but there is a guy in Kuwait he practices this very well. His name is Bassil Al dossarri. He has many shows in Arabic regain. His dommies called Mazyoon, Haj Mahmood and other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.44.250 (talk) 15:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

The Only Choice

The article states that for some sounds, such as p or b, the only choice is to replace them, and uses gottle of geer as an example. However, some ventriloquists can perform these sounds without needing to replace them - Jeff Dunham springs to mind, as does Nina Conti. If it needs citations to be changed to reflect this - do they have to be in the form of reviews or something, or can we just cite the media; e.g., Dunham's shows, Conti's shows / QI and so on..? Lord loss210 (talk) 07:50, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The Citing sources article gives comprehensive info about the formatting of the citations; Identifying reliable sources describes in detail what sort of sources are required. You cannot just say "Dunham's shows", because that is unverifiable hearsay. Which shows, when were they performed, and where? Was the performance recorded? Who can verify that he did in fact do what you claim? The statement that you are trying to defend would require either a recognizable authority speaking about Dunham's technique (for example) or a verifiable statement from Dunham himself describing how he accomplished such a feat. I would bet big money that Dunham, in particular, does not "perform these sounds without needing to replace them", and that he does in fact replace them. He is simply so skilled at it that the uninitiated audience can't tell the difference. 12.233.147.42 (talk) 01:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

garbled sentence

"...by the Americans The Great Lester who used only figure, Frank Byron, Jr., and Edgar Bergen." (4th paragraph, "emergence" section)

Frank Byron, Jr. was Lester's dummy; what is this trying to say? Huw Powell (talk) 15:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Ventriloquist Dummy - Further expansion

Here's a good question - why is there no information regarding ventriloquists who use a special type of face mask to convert unwitting volunteers from their audience into a life-size dummy? I know for a fact there are quite a few ventriloquists who have done this - Nina Conti and Paul Zerdin are examples - and this would be a prime piece of information to add to the article, including how the mask is operated as well as variations on this mask type. GUtt01 (talk) 12:16, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of Dummy in this context?

Is there any Reliably Sourced info on why dolls whose main claim to fame is the apparent ability to talk have come to be called dummies, whih normally means people that can't talk, which seems a bit of an oxymoron (a talking dummy)? Tlhslobus (talk) 18:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The earliest citation given by the OED of "dummy" to describe a ventriloquist's puppet dates to 1936, but the word was in use before that to describe tailor's mannequins, as well as "one who is a mere tool of another" (citations include this from Law Times Reports, 1885: "The petitioner was from first to last a mere dummy in the hands of Mr. Tassie.") Either of those may have inspired the use of the term in the context of ventriloquism, but we'd need a source that says that. Ewulp (talk) 02:41, 5 March 2021 (UTC)