Talk:Van Morrison/Archive 5

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Needs gutting

Good god this article is cringeworthy. Can it help anyone who wants to learn about Van Morrison to know that a few semi-literates consider him the greatest musician ever? I was trying to learn about his later albums but it's hard to read through layers of sycophancy. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Van could improve it, but most of the problems concern basic writing style. 82.69.106.43 (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

So sorry, you're not pleased but I do see from your contributions how discriminating you are. If you want information on the later albums, the discography is conveniently listed in the article where you may link on to them. Just a overall view of how he is unique and what he has accomplished is possible in the main article when a musician has had a fifty year career already. Happy Editing! Agadant (talk) 14:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

==I agree about the cringeworthy tone and standard of writing. Agadant is obviously a fan, which gives us something in common, but I think the article needs more neutral point of view and pruning with a focus on removing repetition and trivia. Much of the info in this article would be great in a magazine article but doesn't really fit an encyclopedia article. Good luck to anyone who tries their had at editing. I fear Agadant and some cohorts and bots guard the page a wee bit too closely.

Did I hear my name? The article was copy-edited, reworded and changes made - in some cases- by an experienced administrator and it passed a very thorough review that did focus on any issues that you have brought up and passed as a GA article, almost exactly as it is now. Articles that have reached GA or FA status have to be guarded against major changes especially by inexperienced and or subjective editors or they would no longer meet the criteria. Thanks for your interest in this matter and article. Agadant (talk) 15:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Instead of complaining, some specific suggestions on how to change wording would be helpful. "Make it more neutral" does not really contribute anything. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

OK. I won't point to every example, but here's an idea on how to make it more neutral - remove all the quotes/citations of people saying how wonderful Van's recordings/performances are. Quoting other people giving their opinions is usually just as inappropriate as giving your own opinions. I'm pretty sure that's what the person at the top of this discussion is talking about. How do you feel about that as a strategy to imrove this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.15.17 (talk) 09:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you're incorrect there. Quotes and opinions from notable sources is exactly what we want, to show the reader how Morrison and his recordings are critically received. For example, look at The Beatles, a Featured Article, which has plenty of quotes and citations. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

== I don't believe I'm "incorrect". I did look at several articles to see how quotes were used and found that they were generally used differently to the VM article. It's true that in the Beatles article quotes are used to praise some albums but they seem to be doing more than that, they are pointing out changes of direction, shifts in the music eg "a sequel of the highest order—one that betters the original by developing its own tone and adding depth." They don't just pull out a praising quote for each album. I'm not saying don't use quotes, I'm saying they have been overused and perhaps misused. I like Van as much as the next fanatic but I think the praise is overdone in this article - as does the person who started this topic. I have pulled out a dozen quotes referring to his albums/performances/songwriting from the article and pasted them below. I may have missed some. This dozen is easily matched in number by citations saying or paraphrasing "The album was well received critically." Read them and consider if they are overdone. I know I can see why the originator of this topic uses the term sycophancy. Personally I'm not using that word - but it would be great to see a more measured article.

"This is music of such enigmatic beauty that thirty-five years after its release, Astral Weeks still defies easy, admiring description." "like nothing he had done previously—and really, nothing anyone had done previously. Morrison sings of lost love, death, and nostalgia for childhood in the Celtic soul that would become his signature." "psychologically complex, musically somewhat uneven and lyrically excellent." "the definitive post-classic-era Morrison" "his most intriguingly involved since Astral Weeks" and "Morrison at his most mystical, magical best." "It carries the listener into a musical home so perfect and complete he or she might have forgotten such a thing existed." "Van Morrison turned the show around...singing to the rafters and ...burning holes in the floor. It was a triumph, and as the song ended Van began to kick his leg into the air out of sheer exuberance and he kicked his way right offstage like a Rockette. The crowd had given him a fine welcome and they cheered wildly when he left."[ "no white man sings like Van Morrison." "Morrison's voice has expanded to fill his frame; a deeper, louder roar than the blue-eyed soul voice of his youth – softer on the diction – but none the less impressively powerful." "like any great poet from Blake to Seamus Heaney he takes words back to their origins in magic...Indeed, Morrison is returning poetry to its earliest roots – as in Homer or Old English epics like Beowulf or the Psalms or folk song – in all of which words and music combine to form a new reality.""Morrison remains a singer who can be compared to no other in the history of rock & roll, a singer who cannot be pinned down, dismissed, or fitted into anyone's expectations." "He extends himself only to express himself. Alone among rock's great figures—and even in that company he is one of the greatest—Morrison is adamantly inward. And unique. Although he freely crosses musical boundaries—R. and B., Celtic melodies, jazz, rave-up rock, hymns, down-and-dirty blues—he can unfailingly be found in the same strange place: on his own wavelength." "his influence among rock singers/song writers is unrivaled by any living artist outside of that other prickly legend, Bob Dylan. Echoes of Morrison's rugged literateness and his gruff, feverish emotive vocals can be heard in latter day icons ranging from Bruce Springsteen to Elvis Costello".[231] His influence includes U2 (much of The Unforgettable Fire); Bono ("I am in awe of a musician like Van Morrison. I had to stop listening to Van Morrison records about six months before we made The Unforgettable Fire because I didn't want his very original soul voice to overpower my own."); —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.15.17 (talk) 09:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

In many cases, you are leaving out the preceding or subsequent quote that balanced the praise. And in all cases the quotation was chosen to show an authoritative view of the subject matter at hand or to use an expert writer's words to be descriptive. As example the quote by Greil Marcus (who was present) on the Caravan performance: if you have seen the video and truly "like Van as much as the next fanatic" (your words) (BTW: I would not describe myself as a fanatic) you would have to admit that this description by Marcus is right on. (Who could write it better?) If Morrison has earned accolades from experts during his musical career and if they are used judiciously to balance a more negative one, to be descriptive or to lend authority to a commonly held view than it would be censorship to keep them out of the article. Agadant (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

== I have watched Van singing Caravan in the Last Waltz numerous times. I don't really see your point about that. I agree with Greil Marcus. So what? Why do you point to this one example? What I am saying is that the article reads like the work of a fanatic - whether you are a fanatic or not - because of the cumulative effect of numerous positve quotes and citations. I know it is good writing to refer to awards won and quote authorites on a subject but when it comes to rock criticism I don't think there are many who bear quoting. Greil Marcus? Lester Bangs? OK, I like reading them - but I'm afraid I don't think that Greil Marcus is such a better thinker on rock than me or many many others! He's just written about it a lot more - while you and I have been doing other jobs. I find his writing interesting but often turgid. But this isn't about Greil Marcus - it's about this article and, I'm afraid I find dozens of quote/citations of Joe Bloggs saying Van M is great not so convincing. You obviously disagree. You use the word "judiciously" and I guess that's where we disgree. I think the use of the psotive quotes is OTT. I listed all the quotes to show how many there are. I think your statement that to leave them out, and I'm not talking about removing them all, would be censorship is extreme.

Also you talk of "the commonly held view" I think there is an equally common view that VM is a ranting, growling, miserable man whose music is not catchy or apecial. And there are billions who have never heard of him. you and I think differenlty but it's just our opinion and Greil's opinion. Why not let awards, album sales, and articulate descriptions of what he brought to music do the job of telling people VM is greeat. Plus the basic history of course.

Also consider, you mention negative quotes. How many cases of negative quotes were there? I have given 12 positives and there are many more positive citations with no quotes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.11.47 (talk) 11:09, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't think I know more than Greil Marcus, about rock or about writing, so you and I differ there and I really don't think you are a fan of Van Morrison, at all, to be honest. It seems like you also didn't like the Caledonia material as in the long discussion below. (the IP Address would indicate same person or a "real" close neighbor.) i will admit to being an optimist and taking care that when I work on articles on living persons, I don't fall into "character assassination". But I remain an optimist by not allowing myself to get hugely involved in spending time delving into any subjects that would indulge any negative thoughts and actions. So you can fault me there if you want to but I am not a fanatic just enjoy uplifting music, while I go about fulfilling my more positive interests. And I don't think this discussion is leading anywhere. The article was given a thorough review and all POV leaning entries were removed if there, but of course, there are as many different opinions as there are people who get involved with any subject matter in depth. Agadant (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Greil Marcus is a notable music critic so we cite him in the article. You, I, Agadant, or "Joe Bloggs" aren't so our opinions don't belong here. If you can find a notable music critic saying "VM is a ranting, growling, miserable man whose music is not catchy or apecial" then that might be worked into the article. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:30, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

To be honest I love VM's music. I have days of it in itunes. I listen to it often. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't like it. Perhaps it was because I suggested that some people, not me, have a negative view of it. My point was that their disliking and our liking of the music are ALL subjective. My main point is this: the article is full of POV. It's not the kind of POV where you say "I think VM is fantastic". It's the kind of POV where you choose numerous, selectively postive quotes and citatations to construct the POV. for example: "Rock Critic x says VM is great", "Allmusic guide says this album is fantastic." It still remains a POV and a very strongly biased one. Notice the reaction of the first person in this topic who found te otne sycophantic. I think all of the POV would be fine in a magazine article or school/college essay on VM. In fact it's very much what people are taught to do in school: appraise an artistic work and quote and cite. However, I don't think appraisal is what is required in an encyclopedia article.

Also, I don't want you to think I am completely negative about this article. It contains much relevant, interesting information. It is extensive and thorough. It is obviously the result of many hours of work. It gives a strong description of VM and his work. However, it does read as having a strong POV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.222.204 (talk) 04:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to let you know that the above comment, though having a diff IP address is indeed me - 58.106.11.47 - I'm at work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.222.204 (talk) 04:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys,

Just here to throw my two cents in. As somebody who isn't very familiar with Van Morrison's body of work, I was a little put off by the first few sentences in the article. Instead of differentiating him and establishing a picture in my mind of his work, personality, etc. it seemed to just praise him. I'd rather know how or why he is so good than know that everyone thinks he is, at least in the first couple of sentences. Also, I feel that the use of "regarded as... transcendental" is bordering on an example of weasel words, despite attribution to two positive reviews. I can imagine that a lot of people don't think he is transcendental, but they haven't written articles about it.

In short: if we were to find everybody that places in the "top 100" among reviewers and add "widely viewed as among the greatest ever made." to the top of all their articles, I don't think we'd be contributing much. I agree that this information should be presented, but perhaps in the third or fourth intro paragraphs.

Thanks, Djbob (talk) 20:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Stubborn and idiosyncratic in the very first sentence is quite descriptive of his personality and "his live performances at their best are transcendental and inspired" is what sets him apart as a performer and musician. Of course, everyone won't agree, music is VERY subjective! I don't think anyone can have a "picture in their mind" of a singer-songwriter's music from an article: they would actually have to listen to it. - But there are some music samples included in the article. Agadant (talk) 22:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

BBC Plagiarism

I noticed this morning that the BBC's piece announcing the birth of Van Morrison's son rather blatantly plagiarizes from this entry. I have contacted the BBC, and encourage others to do so as well. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8433453.stm Lutefish (talk) 17:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Link to Van Morrison Website

I have temporarily commented out the link to the official Van Morrison website as it seems to be infected with a trojan (as stated by my virus scanner Avast when I visited the site just now). If you wish to verify please ensure you are properly protected. Feel free to uncomment if you think the site has been repaired (I will check 3-4 times a day). --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 13:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

NeilN, I get a page that says: New and improved site coming soon. vanmorrison.com Agadant (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC): I have an Apple computer, may be the difference? I have received a warning in the past, but not today. Agadant (talk) 14:23, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

What website scanner are you using? Avast reports the site being infected with the JS:Downloader-FA [Trj] trojan. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 14:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Apple has it's own security updates for it's software which is much less vulnerable, almost invincible, to these trojans, etc.. But I have received the warning a few times temporarily in the last few days that the website was infected with Malware but it hasn't come up since Friday or so, just the page with info on a new website coming soon. Agadant (talk) 14:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I just checked and this trojan was added to Avast's database yesterday. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 14:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

The "Web Of Trust" Firefox extension is also reporting a malware infection [1]. This is community-reported, and might be wrong, but probably isn't. I support deprecating these links until there's proof the site is trustworthy. — Gavia immer (talk) 14:35, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

NeilN: Looking at some of the song articles, etc. that you are linking to, I had actually started to remove these links because they applied to the old website, before this newer one and it had links to lyrics, discography etc. that the latest one didn't. The new improved site will hopefully contain some of these resources. I must have missed or got distracted taking the links out on some articles. So when you come across the links to lyrics, videos etc. on External links, just remove the link and I will replace if the new website has the information. Agadant (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

NeilN: I see all the ones that you linked to were actually to the uk website not vanmorrison.com. Anyway, all of the references and links to Van Morrison's website will, I'm sure, be obsolete when the new one is put in place. So if you want to help check for all references and external links to VM.uk or VM.com, and just remove them, I'll watch to see when the new website comes up and redo accordingly. Thanks, Agadant (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

The .co.uk site is now redirecting to .com which seems to be uninfected. Give it a couple more hours then we can probably restore the official site link. The refs will likely have to be redone. What is this - the third time in the last two years that they've completely restructured the site? --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 16:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It says coming soon: new and improved, which was very much needed, so I'm optimistic that this time will be a "winner". Agadant (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

split article

This article is awfully long, I think maybe doing a separate awards thing might be good, any other ideas?--Levineps (talk) 18:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe seperate awards section would be a good idea. There also seems to be an aweful lot of info. on the live performances section on 2008 onwards and not all that much else. I think this shows an imballance, possibly suggesting his recent concerts are better than his other live work (most notably some of his officially released live work is hardly mentioned at all). The 2008-2009 info. could be moved to the album article Astral Weeks Live at the Hollywood Bowl as a "following tour" section or something. Would like to hear people's thoughts on the matter Kitchen roll (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

When it is considered that one live album and one DVD have been compiled from the live Astral Weeks HWB 2008 concerts and a documentary scheduled for 2010 will be based on the Astral Weeks 2008 and 2009 concerts and related appearances, the information is not an imbalance. All info on his last 2 releases fell to the Live Performances section. I've actually taken the time to look at other artists that have separate awards sections and they do not have the varying type of awards that Van Morrison does, as an example: Bob Dylan awards. Therefore, my unbiased opinion is that they are best listed in the article as now.

After looking at GA or FA articles for other artists, I think this article is neither too long for an artist of his prominence, length of career and much output: nor needs to be broken up. As only one example: Bob Dylan's is longer even with separate articles for tours, awards, discography, etc. And the section on Dylan's last two albums is much longer than the material on Morrison's 2008/2009 album/DVD. It took 3 years of hard work to reach GA status and with the help of a very experienced administrator in this area and a very involved and detail oriented reviewer, this article finally did. Let's don't now start talking of tearing it down: This is virtually the way it stood after a hard fought review and many article revisions to reach GA. Let's expend our energies on the many neglected articles elsewhere on Wiki that need much work with proper sourcing and research. (And there are so many found with just a quick look around.) It does take a lot of determination and resolve to really buckle down and do the work required, though.

Kitchen roll, I think it was you who has said for the last 1-1/2 years that you are going to write an article on Van Morrison's concerts. Are you progressing much with that? Let me know if you need advise and help with it. Agadant (talk) 01:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Citations for best album: Astral Weeks, Moondance, ITLTSN

for: Astral Weeks: A 2004 Rolling Stone magazine review begins with the words: "This is music of such enigmatic beauty that thirty-five years after its release, Astral Weeks still defies easy, admiring description." Alan Light would later describe Astral Weeks as "like nothing he had done previously—and really, nothing anyone had done previously. Morrison sings of lost love, death, and nostalgia for childhood in the Celtic soul that would become his signature." It has been placed on many lists of best albums of all time. In the 1995 Mojo list of 100 Best Albums, it was listed as number two and was number nineteen on the Rolling Stone magazine's The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time in 2003.

for: It's Too Late to Stop Now The 1974 live double album, It's Too Late to Stop Now, has been on lists of greatest live albums of all time.

Put in the article for ITLTSN: Acclaimed Music - It's Too Late To Stop Now

for: Moondance Moondance was listed at number sixty-five on the Rolling Stone magazine's The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. In March 2007, Moondance was listed as number seventy-two on the NARM Rock and Roll Hall of Fame list of the "Definitive 200".

Another for Moondance that is not currently in article that I can find, but is a great one The All Time 100 Albums:

more to come: Agadant (talk) 17:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• It's the claim for ITLTSN that I didn't see sourced. I suppose if you include 'top 500 album lists' it's justifiable to a degree, but claims of 'best ever made' still seem a little exaggerated somehow :) StephenJH (talk) 18:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it falls in the top fifty, not 500 on most of the lists cited.

Are you okay with the citations? And thanks for your edits. Maybe this did need a few more citations and also it showed up some fixes that were needed. Agadant (talk) 21:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC) (UTC)

Fine mate, you've put a lot into all this and done some good work. I'm sure it's appreciated by many, including me. StephenJH (talk) 11:18, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Fakebaby

The baby is not real! It's a fake baby who hasn't been born. The mother is also fake. She doesn't exist. He is already married to someone else. This must be told to the world. He is very upset. Who can have been so horrid! --86.40.212.50 (talk) 14:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, relax a bit. We get it. A link would have helped: [2] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This "In late 2009 and early 2010 Van Morrison's offical website was hacked and edited to state that the singer himself had fathered another baby, at the age of 64, however the singer denied these claims, stating they were false." is true and can be sourced but is it worth having in the article? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I also don't think it is worth it and removed it along with the names of the minor children according to WP:BOLP. Agadant (talk) 21:21, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph

The opening paragraph seems a bit breathless to me: "Van Morrison, ... is a critically acclaimed Irish singer and songwriter with a reputation for being at once stubborn, idiosyncratic, and sublime. His live performances at their best are regarded as transcendental and inspired; while some of his recordings, such as the studio albums Astral Weeks and Moondance, and the live album It's Too Late to Stop Now, are widely acclaimed as among the greatest ever made."

He has a reputation for being sublime? Really? Perhaps his music has been described as such but it seems a stretch to suggest anyone has a reputation for it. The rest of the paragraph seems a little overblown as well. Don't get me wrong, I quite like his music but a sentence like "His live performances at their best are regarded as transcendental and inspired while some of his recordings ... are widely acclaimed as among the greatest ever made" hardly seems fitting for an encyclopaedia. Surely it would be enough to mention that his music is critically acclaimed? It would also make more sense to me to say a little about the type of music he produces. TimTim (talk) 13:57, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to reword the opening sentence to "Van Morrison, OBE (born George Ivan Morrison, 31 August 1945) is a critically acclaimed Irish singer and songwriter with a reputation for being stubborn and idiosyncratic." but other editors may feel that's unbalanced. Other opinions requested. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:06, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that would be an improvement, NeilN and with the critically acclaimed included is a balanced statement. Agadant (talk) 17:18, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Personal Life

I have removed part of the section on Van's personal life for two reasons: it didn't actually detail his personal life and it seemed poorly conceived as the paragaph doesn't mention that Caledonia is the Latin word for Scotland. As it stands the paragraph seems to be saying it is a person's name only and is quite mystery that Van should use the name so often. This clashes with the section on Genre whre it is well explained that Calednia is Scotland, the home of Van's ancestors and a place with which he has a great affinity - not mystery at all.

But most of all it is not really detail of Van's personal life.

Thank you Teapot George for pointing out correct editing etiquette to me. I AM a newbie, as you have guessed. (but I must say I don't think my edit was controversial and was "on the money" - therefore not really needing an entry on the discussion page?. But I should have at least entered a frief reason with my edit I agree.

The section I have deleted is shown below.

The name "Caledonia" has played a prominent role in Morrison's life and career. Biographer Ritchie Yorke had pointed out already by 1975 that Morrison has referred to Caledonia so many times in his career that he "seems to be obsessed with the word." As well as being his daughter's middle name, it's the name of his first production company, his studio, his publishing company, two of his backing groups, and he also recorded a cover of the song, "Caldonia" (with the name spelled "Caledonia") in 1974. Morrison used "Caledonia" in what has been called a quintessential Van Morrison moment in the song, "Listen to the Lion" with the lyrics, "And we sail, and we sail, way up to Caledonia".

I disagree: the information as quoted does belong in the article, if not in the personal life section than in one of its own. This is where it originally was. It is important information that gives the reader a greater understanding of Morrison's unique genre of music called "Celtic Soul" and why his music derives most particularly from Scotland compared to what is usually referred to as Celtic music. Agadant (talk) 14:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Agadant. I have to disagree with your disageement! I guess it was you who moved the paragraph out of "Personal Life" (which I think that is a good call and put it back in as a subsection of Music. However I don't think it works there, either for 2 reasons.

1 - "Caledonia' doesn't seem to be the kind of heading which would fit a template, like Genre, Performance style, vocals etc.

2 - And this is my main point, which I made with my previous edit: It is already dealt with substantially under the sub-section genre. The restored paragraph adds very little to whatis already under "genre" I think if you wanted to add anything, that is where it should go, in a merged form. However, I think the whole idea of Celtic soul is already pretty much dealt with. And as much as I love Van, I think this whole articel is a bit overly long anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.8.214 (talk) 02:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

However, per WP:BRD, sourced content should not be removed pending consensus, and I've replaced it. Rodhullandemu 02:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I've had a look at the BRD and feel like I'm following it in principle - being bold (but not aggressive). I did consider waiting for Agadant to have a look at my comments before removing the paragraph I feel was in the wrong place and repetitious. I've left it alone this time, just adding these comments. Up to you guys and any other interested parties. Have a look and consider if it is repetitious and still in a wrong place. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.8.214 (talk) 02:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Bold isn't necessarily aggressive, however, not being an expert on Van Morrison, it appears to me that this sort of thing belongs in a "Themes and Influences" section, and it would take an editor more familiar than I to construct it. Rodhullandemu 02:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm very familiar with Van Morrison (won't make any claims to being an expert) and I feel like the Caledonia material stating how the name "Caledonia" has been so important to him during his career is a part of his history as a musician and definitely belongs in the article. It is information that helps to determine what makes him unique as an artist and a person. And it was in the article when it passed as a GA. Perhaps the heading can be changed. I'll research what might be better. Agadant (talk) 04:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Agadant. I think you are an EXPERT! And I have come to realise that you have written most of this article and many Van related articles. And I like how this article talks about the music of VM and describes it and his vocal style - it doesn't just suppply birgraphical detail and lists of recordings. I also agree that the name/concept of Caledonia IS central to Van Morrison and his music. However, you, and others, don't seem to be taking on board (or at least not addressing it in this discussion) my comment that the paragraph I removed basically repeats the information in the section on genre. It's a tidying up the article issue, rather than me rejecting the content out of hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.8.214 (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Some of Morrison's music has been classified in a genre of its own and referred to as "Celtic soul" or what biographer Brian Hinton referred to as a new alchemy called "Caledonian soul." Another biographer, Ritchie Yorke quoted Morrison as believing that he has "the spirit of Caledonia in his soul and his music reflects it." According to Yorke, Morrison claimed to have discovered "a certain quality of soul" when he first visited Scotland (his Belfast ancestors were of Ulster Scots descent) and Morrison has said he believes there is some connection between soul music and Caledonia. Yorke relates that Morrison "discovered several years after he first began composing music that some of his songs lent themselves to a unique major modal scale (without sevenths) which of course is the same scale as that used by bagpipe players and old Irish and Scottish folk music."The name "Caledonia" has played a prominent role in Morrison's life and career. Biographer Ritchie Yorke had pointed out already by 1975 that Morrison has referred to Caledonia so many times in his career that he "seems to be obsessed with the word." In his 2009 biography, Erik Hage found that "Morrison seemed deeply interested in his paternal Scottish roots during his early career, and later in the ancient countryside of England, hence his repeated use of the term Caledonia (an ancient Roman name for Scotland/northern Britain)." As well as being his daughter's middle name, it's the name of his first production company, his studio, his publishing company, two of his backing groups, and he also recorded a cover of the song, "Caldonia" (with the name spelled "Caledonia") in 1974. Morrison used "Caledonia" in what has been called a quintessential Van Morrison moment in the song, "Listen to the Lion" with the lyrics, "And we sail, and we sail, way up to Caledonia". As late as 2008, Morrison used "Caledonia" as a mantra in the live performance of the song, "Astral Weeks" recorded at the two Hollywood Bowl concerts.

Here it is all together: One part discusses the music genre influenced by Caledonia or Scotland and the other discusses how the name influenced many aspects of his life, even his daughter's middle name, for example, showing of what importance it was to him in many other ways than just in his music. Agadant (talk) 05:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

References

Discography

I found this album which is missing at the English and Dutch Wikipedia: The 1967 New York sessions Audio CD (22 Sep 1997) Number of Discs: 2 Format: Original recording reissued, Original recording remastered Label: Snapper ASIN: B00000I5VV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.67.191.120 (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It has it's own page as an album, New York Sessions '67, it's listed in the Van Morrison discography and in the template for Van Morrison. It doesn't belong in the main article as: besides being issued unofficially, it's a compilation. Agadant (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Them had a routine and a set-list

No one doubts the spontaneity of a VM performance, from Them on. But the idea that they had no routine is not true. Rogan, p. 82:

"Their new repertoire was honed in a room above a bicycle shop in Victoria Street owned by blues enthusiast Dougie Knight. 'We disappeared off the scene, unintentionally really, to do some practising and rehearsing together," Harrison recalls. "We knew the numbers we wanted to play."

I may be new to this entry, but I am not new to VM lore. I consider Billy Harrison to be a pretty good source regarding early Them. 12 March 2010 Nada-es-nada (talk) 17:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Nada-es-nada

You are not using your editing on Wikipedia in a proper manner. You don't just barrel in and change an article to your satisfaction, then when pressed come to the talk page make a general statement , about who you consider a good source and then with no consensus go back and change the article again according to your tastes. This is not the way that Wiki works. One new editor does not come in and decide how he wants the article because he considers himself an expert. There are many different opinions on everything and I have often seen Harrison's accounts of Them disputed by biographers, other band members, etc. I would urge you to stop reverting me and that you stop arbitrarily changing this article with no consensus. Performing without a routine is taken to mean the same thing as the manner in which he performs nowadays - no set list - it doesn't mean he or the band never rehearses. Thanks, Agadant (talk) 18:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the nature of my edits, you will see that I am simply striving toward accuracy. For example, correcting the fact that Magic Time was not the next album after Down the Road, or that it was "Ilene" Burns, not Eileen. (Do we need a consensus on facts that are just outright *wrong*? There are a lot here that I haven't even touched.) I think this pretty much shows that my intentions are far from aggressive. This idea about "barrelling" is simply not true and some of your comments toward my revisions have been outright trollish and not about facts or sources. I'm glad to keep my hands off the VM entry, but someone should really get in there and fact-check, as wikipedia is a pervasive source and this is a major recording artist and historical figure. The entry is a noble effort with lots of pertinent information, but needs some vetting. But based on the history here it looks like any new entry who steps in gets a smackdown rather than inspiring any kind of engaging research or debate. But I don't really have a horse in this race. Nada-es-nada (talk) 18:59, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Nada-es-nada

The Van Morrison recent history speaks for itself. I've only made two comments to you as "Nada-es-nada", in which I asked you to engage on the talk page about a change that I felt was uncalled for and in error. I don't have to say anything in my defence. There is always a story to be learned in all written records, that is, if someone troubles themselves to look for it. I always do and learn a lot that way..Agadant (talk) 03:25, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

FA?

I am wondering what is preventing this article from being considered for FA Status! I just came along it, and after working well and hard on some musician's biographies, I find this treasure of an article! I believe it's one of the finest in this area, and so am baffled that it is only a Good article. What is holding it back from being a Featured article? --Leahtwosaints (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Words of praise and appreciation from a highly qualified editor and one who has actually worked on musician's biographies = PRICELESS! Thanks, Leahtwosaints... Agadant (talk) 11:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Words of kindness! Thanks for the high opinion. I especially love the flow of this text, the choice of music clips and their relevance to the article! I'm working some and trying to find other editors to help with another Irish blues-rock performer, Rory Gallagher, who has been horribly neglected, (in part because of his fear of flying) so he was by FAR less known in North America. There are only a few musicians who have merited stamps of Ireland: Van Morrison, Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy, and Rory Gallagher. A little help for Rory Gallagher's article especially would go a long way! There are a lot of sources listed in his talk page. I'll sadly be offline for a couple of days, but contact me via my talk page and I'll get back to anybody interested; there are a few of us now. I'd love to return the favor helping here in some way, too. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)