Talk:Van (Dutch)

Capitalisation

The following is a spin-off of discussions at the reference desk and the van Gogh talk page.

Maybe it's time to face the facts, Dirk. Buy any Dutch magazine or newspaper, and read the articles on Lousewies van der Laan, Jozias van Aartsen, Marco van Basten or Edwin van der Sar: you will see that every time they are mentioned without a first name, their names are written Van der Laan, Van Aartsen, Van Basten, Van der Sar. Go to a library. Read any Dutch book that mentions Karel van het Reve, Marinus van der Lubbe or Johannes Diderik van der Waals, and you will find that they are always called Van het Reve, Van der Lubbe and Van der Waals if their first name is omitted. Read the Dutch Wikipedia, articles like Volkert van der Graaf ("Toen Van der Graaf 17 jaar oud was..."), Ed van der Elsken ("In 1988 hoorde Van der Elsken..."), Medy van der Laan ("In 1991 trad Van der Laan in dienst..."), Jannes van der Wal {"Een bekend citaat van Van der Wal is..."), Max van der Stoel ("Tot de opheffing in 1992 was Van der Stoel leider van..."), and discover the exact same thing. Woordenlijst.nl says "Voorzetsels en lidwoorden in sommige familienamen krijgen in Nederland een kleine letter als er een voornaam, initiaal of familienaam aan voorafgaat." Taalpost.nl, edited by Ludo Permentier of the Van Dale dictionaries and Marc van Oostendorp of Onze taal: "Het voorvoegsel van een achternaam wordt in Nederland met een hoofdletter geschreven als er geen voornaam of voorletters aan de achternaam voorafgaan." Groene boekje, official guide to writing Dutch: "Persoonsnamen krijgen een hoofdletter. Het voorzetsel of lidwoord krijgt een hoofdletter als er geen naam of voorletter aan voorafgaat." The rule could not be more clear. I understand that it was not fun for you to find out that you don't know how to write your own name, but to add to this article, as you have done several times now, that "in Dutch names it is written in lower case, except at the beginning of a sentence or sometimes if the first name or initials are omitted" is simply wrong. Sorry for driving the point home this way, but I don't want to correct this text every day. David Sneek 09:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am starting to think that maybe the non-capitalisation is a southern Dutch thing, since the article says the capitalisation is not done in Flanders. Limburgian tradition has closer ties to Flanders than to Holland. I suppose the claim should be the other way around, that "some people don't ever capitalise the prefix of their last name, as in Flanders". That would require a little more research, though. Ultimately, I know quite well how to spell my name. It may be that the official rules don't agree, but then that's their problem. :) DirkvdM 09:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is odd, though, that 'van der Waals' is filed under 'w', making 'Waals' the name proper and 'van der' just prefixes, that those prefixes (well, only the first one) should officially be capitalised. This should probably be addressed in the article. And there is still the question why 'van Dale' does not capitalise its own name, even though it is supposed to be the bible when it comes to the Dutch language. DirkvdM 09:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the Van Dale website and it seems to me they only use lowercase "v" in the logo, but in the text it's always "Van". As for "Waals", I have to say that I don't really see the problem. Even if a prefix is capitalised in certain positions, it still remains a prefix. David Sneek 16:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't claim it isn't a prefix, but then I don't suppose you mean to suggest that. You just present my argument the other way around. I just meant to say that it is more logical for a prefix (which when filed officially even becomes a postfix) not to be capitalised. But I'm willing to accept that that is nevertheless the official rule. Which still leaves the question whether I am such an exception and if this has anything to do with being from the south. I wish there were a Dutch ref desk where we could ask this. Or which would be a good Dutch article for this? Anyway, I've Googled 'van der' and all possible variations seem to be used; no capitalisation at all, all capitalised, capitalised 'v' but not 'd' with the first name. And the first mention of 'van der Waals' (forces) was with small 'v'. So I googled that. The terms 'van der Waals force', 'van der Waals equation', 'van der Waals radius' and 'van der Waals attraction' (hell, there's even a 'van der Waals stamp' :) ) seem to usually be spelled with a small 'v'. I'll have a go at another edit. See what you think. DirkvdM 07:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And while I was at it I did a slight rewrite because it ahd become a bit of a mess and to add some info. DirkvdM 07:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed the sentence "However, in practice the latter rule is not always followed," again. This is bullshit! Every Dutch publication follows this rule and it is in every manual of style. Maybe some uneducated individuals are unaware of it - as in the examples above - but that doesn't change anything; we don't add "In practice the -t in 'hij wordt' en 'hij vindt' is often omitted" to the article on Dutch grammar, just because 'hij word' and 'hij vind' give 100,000 and 143,000 (!) google hits... Those are mistakes, not legitimate alternatives. Skarioffszky 18:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

" v. " abbreviation

The article doesn't seem to mention the abbreviated form I've seen on footballers' shirts. It's usually lower case, as in v. Nistelrooy or v. Persie, as I recall. Is there a protocol here, or is it just ad hoc? Slumgum T. C. 21:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ad hoc.

Rex 15:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven?

Why is he van and not von? Did Germans use van before? Astroguato 15:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, he has "van" in his name because his father was Dutch.Rex 15:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His father was German I think, but his grandfather was from Mechelen (present day Belgium)--Lamadude 19:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His father, Johan van Beethoven, was of Dutch/Flemish ancestry.Rex 20:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Is Van pronunciated phan/fan or simply van? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.8.178 (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

neither: *v*, *a* as in bar/water/bath, *n*

(posting this for future reference:) In Dutch it would indeed be pronounced as above - just try to replace the r in run with a v and you should be close enough. In English the standard pronunciation has been to simply pronounce the word van (as in the vehicle), but perhaps with an even longer a. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 16:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nobility

The article states: "unlike the German "von", the Dutch "van" is an indication of nobility or royalty." This appears to be a mistake. I am quite sure, from consulting the Wiki entry on "von" as well as my own personal experience, that it is the other way round. Ivandh 4:49, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

You should leave a message on the talk page of Kraxler. This user is knowledgeable in the details surrounding the correct usages of Van/van/von. upstate NYer 19:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i don't know about 'von', but 'van' does not indicate any kind of social status or nobility. (only double last names typically indicate nobility, but there are many exceptions to that rule) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.127.245.72 (talk) 00:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Van as a surname in Dutch?

@Ongast: hi. You wrote that "Van also exists as a surname in its own right, but as such it's very rare." No source indicated. In America it is, but that's irrelevant here. Are you sure? Are you a native Dutch speaker? If not, it's been tagged "cn" and will be removed. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 10:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am from South Africa, my language derives from German and Dutch. "Van" literally means "from" for example: "He is from Johannesburg" = "Hy kom van Johannesburg af" (direct translation = He comes from Johannesburg. An example of a ditch last name.... van den Steen = meaning: from the Rock or stone / made out of stone 174.247.236.40 (talk) 18:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Native Dutch speaker here. Never came across "Van" as a Dutch surname, neither in modern times nor in historical sources or literature. I'd support removal. 185.33.153.226 (talk) 02:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation in Belgium

I think the article is a bit too definitive when it comes to Belgium. I would like to see a source for the statement that Belgian sources often write Vincent Van Gogh. A quick Google search doesn't support it. And even certain Belgians have a nonstandard capitilisation. Just check how Wout van Aert's name is usually written in Belgian media. Quick hint, it's not Wout Van Aert. Oskkar (talk) 17:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]