Talk:Valet will ich dir geben

A fact from Valet will ich dir geben appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 16 April 2014 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Sterbelied "Valet will ich dir geben" is described in a subtitle as a song of consolation, in which a pious heart bids farewell to this world?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2014/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Valet will ich dir geben.

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Will?

Gerda, what would you say was the force of the "will" in the title, at the time this was written? Moonraker (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about a different meaning then, from today's "I make an effort to (even if it is hard / doesn't come naturally)". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First verse

Has anyone ever published a translation of this hymn? Here's an attempt at the first verse. (The need to find rhymes always changes the meaning slightly.) Moonraker (talk) 02:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Now fare thee well, I say to thee,

Thou false, ungodly World;

Thy plagues of sin and evil

I care no more to see.

My heart is fixed on Heaven,

There now I long to be;

May the Lord God's lordly welcome

For his servants come to me.

Beautiful. I started this article - improvement welcome - in memory of Cindy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

About the "title"

Christoph Albrecht was wrong about what he called the title of the hymn. For German speaking users: de:Diskussion:Valet will ich dir geben#„Ein andächtiges Gebet“. --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Understand. Can you fix it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:20, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nein, bitte, dein Englisch ist besser und du kennst die Gebräuche hier :) Gruß, --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 21:43, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

nur nicht gleich, nicht auf der Stell - I am behind with 2 recent deaths, uncounted reviews due, promises to help (see my talk), not even speaking of article writing ...

Moonraker, can you please translate the "real" title "VALET VALERII HERBERGERI, das er der Welt gegeben / Anno 1613. im Herbst / da er alle stunden / den Todt für Augen getragen / aber dennoch gnädiglich / vnnd ja so wünderlich als die drey Männer im Babylonischen Fewerofen erhalten worden"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

... DYK had the right part of the description, see top ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am puzzled by Valet, Gerda. If it’s a Latin word, it means he or she is strong or well, but I don’t see how it’s intended in the first line of the verse, do you? I guess it’s also the title of the verse, <Valerius Herberger’s “Valet”>? I am just going to bed but will look back tomorrow. Moonraker (talk) 22:08, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that the Latin Valet should remain untranslated, a fair-well greeeting, and so similar to his name. I just saw that you translated the first stanza, and in the article is a small-print Winckworth. - Also too tired to look closer now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:17, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Latin valete is the imperativus pluralis of valere, which means be well / strong. Already in classical times it was used as a greeting farewell. In German, the Latin word was used abbreviated (without the last e), but stressed on the second syllable, and it became a noun: das Valét = the farewell. --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 22:21, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move

I am not happy with the undiscussed move from Valet will ich dir geben. The lead now reads as if Bach and Reger set "Farewell" which is nonsense. Best solution would be to move back. Otherwise, please clarify. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above DYK notice as now also wrong, of course. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am also not happy about the page move, which was done without any discussion and seems quite controversial. The new version of the page seems quite anachronistic, which will be confusing to readers. Mathsci (talk) 13:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So I moved it back. It should be left that way or first discussed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Valet will ich dir geben → Farewell I Gladly Bid Thee – WP:RECOGNIZABILITY: the English-language title will generally be more recognisable for users of the English Wikipedia. See also OCLC 228506066, which even has a chorale prelude by Bach mentioned by its English name (and German Bach is certainly not the only context in which this hymn is mentioned – it also appears in English-language hymnals, see its page at hymnary.org). Compare also a similar RM on another Lutheran hymn originally written in German at Talk:A Mighty Fortress Is Our God/Archive 1#Requested move 30 October 2018: such RM does, in itself, not indicate which way this RM should go (per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS), but can indicate which kind of arguments can be made on both sides, and which may to a certain degree be valid in this RM too (although "A Mighty Fortress" is arguably a better-known hymn than "Farewell I Gladly Bid Thee"). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Oppose English readers are also likely to be coming here from the settings in Bach's work, whose organ works I have not heard mentioned by their translated titles, database listing aside (or even from the hymn much more commonly sung to the tune, "All Glory, Laud and Honour"). In any case, "Farewell I Gladly Bid Thee" is not a particularly popular text (hymnary lists only a few instances, most of them in very old hymnals), and is unlikely to be as "recognizable" as you claim. A google search in any case yields much more results for "Valet will ich dir geben" (about 60000) than for "Farewell I Gladly Bid Thee" (about 6000). Also mind explaining the obsessiveness with Zahn numbers? They don't seem particularly helpful (since most of our readers won't have a clue what is being referred to), and it would be much more pertinent to actually list the melodies in the article using lilypond (with the caveat that in this case the first one, #5403, does not seem to be very popular...). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that the contemporary Canterbury Dictionary of Hymnology does not appear to have an entry for "Farewell..." (though it has for "Valet..." (and if I had full access I guess they'd mention a translation there) and also for both "Ein feste Burg" and both ([1] [2]) common translations). Fenner also does mention "Valet" in the context of the more communly sung English text, but there's no mention (though probably because it is entirely out of scope) of Winkworth's translation. Per the same source, do note that some hymnals also refer to the tune for the Palm Sunday hymn by the original German name, VALET WILL ICH DIR GEBEN, and that is yet another indication that the German name is very likely recognizable, too... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, "Ein feste Burg" (under its various English translations, although of course one is preferred) is not comparable because it is widely sung and published in modern English-language hymnals, unlike this hymn, so the argument "we should have this hymn title in English because there's another one in English" sounds even more like a bad comparison than the other way round. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. When the page was moved (without a discussion, see above), it correctly said that "Farewell ..." is the translation of "Valet", - not the same thing. The translation does not fall into category 17th-century hymns, nor was it set by Bach. The poet made it a clever acrostic of his given name, which doesn't work in English. Of the commons items, only one refers to Farewell, all others to Valet. I wouldn't object to splitting the article into one which covers all that relies on "Valet", and one which covers "Farewell", but am afraid the latter would be too short. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Gerda's comments on "Valet" are relevant. In addition there seems to be no preferred English translation for the German Lutheran hymn. The German text on the other hand is unambiguous. The German hymn and its related narrative—Fraustadt plague victims in 1613—seem wholly appropriate. The English translation of Catherine Winkworth (1865) seems acceptable but no more distinguished than her many other hymn translations. Mathsci (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.