Talk:Valencian pilota

Suggestion re. clarity of article

This doesn't look like a much frequented page, but hopefully someone will notice this! Having come here from an article on Olympic sports, I was keen to learn what on earth Basque pelota and it's variants were all about. Unfortunately, there is not a single paragraph in the article that sums up the core of the game. For any sport let alone an obscure-ish one, I'd expect something akin to: Football - a game of 2 teams of 11 players with the aim to kick a ball into the opponents net etc. etc. Even after scouring the whole article and reading it all a couple of times, I still don't have a real idea of how this game works. I can see there are many variants which adds to the confusion, but perhaps someone familiar with pilota can write a précis of the most common elements. Dutpar (talk) 12:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Some improvements that could be made

I have made a series of edits, most of them stylistic, trying to improve the text. Some may have achieved so but probably some others are not any better, so please feel free to revert those which are not interesting or well redacted.

On the things which could substantially improve the article and are relatively easy to add are

• Those "misterious" three towns in the Vinalopó Mitjà..which are? I guess Petrer, Monóver and...? It is not that important but, since they are only three, I guess it is worth noting them. Done.

• More important than that: it is missed from the text in its present version whether all variants can be played indistinctively by individuals or teams or whether there are some variants reserved to individuals or teams only. It doesn't follow from the text why some games are played individually and others by teams and this fact is only mentioned incidentally.

• I think enlarging the betting section could be interesting: I am not familiar at all with the sport, but I do know that betting does matter.

• Also, I think that recently some sort of "league" has been created which, at first sight, I haven't noticed in the article. It would be interesting to make a mention to it and which are the teams participating, just to get a better idea where the game is currently played, because this is another part which could be improved: its regional distribution within the Valencian Community (in some areas the sport is really popular and in some others completely absent: it may be good to have some basic sketch regarding its distribution).

• Finally, the statement that "some indirect rules have been introduced recently" is a bit obscure. I am not sure if the meaning is that indirect rules have been introduced in direct games or that, actually, what have been introduced recently are indirect games (Frontó and Frare). Since the game is traditional and, I suppose, well established, probably the meaning is the latter. If so, the article should be edited to make this more clear.

Mountolive | Talk 05:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's reply one by one:

* Galotxetes is nowadays only played in Monòver, El Pinós and La Romana, Alicante, but only the first town has decent courtfields, the other two villages are not covered, so wind and rain affect.

* Variations that may be played individually are Escala i corda, Fraré, Frontó, Galotxetes, and Raspall. In the case of professionals (Escala i corda) and (Raspall) one-on-one matches are very prestigious but they play not more than 10 a year, since it's very tiring. For amateur players one-on-one matches of those two variations is impossible.

* The betting section is largely explained in the Catalan article [1].

* I guess the "league" you name is the Circuit Bancaixa. It's a championship for professional players who form teams as their firm (ValNet) says. At the beginning of some seasons some players complain of who their team partners are, but the firms claims that teams are done to have a same level. Also, those teams are sponsored by towns, it doesn't matter if any of the players of that team is from that town, but usually towns use to help the local hero such as Miguel from Petrer or Mezquita from Vila-real.

* The distribution of the game is very irregular: Not all variations are played everywhere. While some as Frare and Galotxetes are very local based, others such as Llargues and Galotxa are known everywhere or have been played until recently. The List of Valencian trinquets may help you to know where Escala i corda or Raspall are played, it lists the active courtfields and the places which had trinquets or they are not active right now.

* Indirect games was the first version, and they were meant to be Frontó and Frare.

In case of doubt, refer to the Catalan article, whom this English one is based, and which is updated and improved.

Thx for your help and suggestions. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

So would it be correct to say that the standard way to play Pilota is by two teams of two people each? and then individual matches would the a very anticipated and expected exception to the rule only for the best players and gathering the highest bets?

Yes, that "League" is the Circuit Bancaixa. I see it is in See also; I think it would be worth it to include some reference to the text.

Ok, so I understand from what you are saying that what has been introduced recently are Frare and Frontó, both indirect games, while the traditonal pilota keeps its direct rules character unchanged. I am going to edit accordingly: please amend if this was not correct. Mountolive | Talk 01:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

So would it be correct to say that the standard way to play Pilota is by two teams of two people each? and then individual matches would the a very anticipated and expected exception to the rule only for the best players and gathering the highest bets?

Yep, I'd say Pilota Valenciana is mainly a team sport. The number of players on each team depends on the variant.

It should be taken into account that the oldest game, Llargues, requires 5 players at most, while the professional games (Escala i corda and Raspall) feature one-on-one championships since 1986.

Players in every variant:

* Escala i corda: Teams of 2 or 3 players, depending on their quality. May be played individually, but it's a very tiring and quality demanding experience only for professionals.

* Frare: As in Frontó.

* Frontó: May be played one-on-one or by teams of 2 players each.

* Galotxa: Teams of 3 players.

* Galotxetes: As in Frontó.

* Llargues: Teams of 4 or 5 players.

* Raspall. As in Escala i corda.

(In Escala i corda and Galotxa there's an additional player, the feridor, who only plays the serving ball. He may be replaced by the punter player)

I didn't explain the number of players because in the main article I only tried to give a slight idea of every variant, I think games played by teams or individual are clear in their own articles. That's just my opinion, of course. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right in not explaining in detail here how each game is played and leave that to the more specific article. Still, I thought that some general statement should be done in the lead of the article, in order to give a general frame from where to start reading the article. I edited accordingly, hope you agree. Mountolive | Talk 05:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything's all right. Thx a lot. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Territorial distribution

Ok, I think my questions above are all pretty much answered (thank you) and now included in the text. There is only open the question of the territorial distribution: I saw the list of trinquets and, indeed, it is quite anarchic and so difficult to summarize in the text (by the way, I don't think Elx has one trinquet, but that's a different story)....

Would it be safe to add that the sport is stronger in the Valencia province? I know for sure it is stronger there than in the Alicante one, but I am not sure how is it in Castellón. I think to mention this would be interesting, still, it is potentially tricky as well, as it may be very important in some towns of the Alicante province and not at all in some others in the Valencia one....what do you think? Mountolive | Talk 05:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know pilota was played in Elx:

• There is a Trinquet Street in the center of the city.
• There was a trinquet in the Carretera del León until the 1950s.
• There was a trinquet in La Baia countryside. In case it still exists it's no longer used as a sport place. I don't know.

I disagree with your comment about where the sport is stronger. Llargues are very popular in the north of the Alacant province (les Marines comarques), and one of the best players at the moment (Martínez) is from El Campello (very close to Alacant). Even in places far from the center there are still some remains of this sport as in Crevillent and its old trinquet, Petrer and its hero, Miguel, Monòver and its Galotxetes and many more... So it wouldn't be fair that comment...

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed there is Carrer Trinquet there, but it only retains the name from its former use and, for the other two, as you say, they are both out of business. That is why I said that I don't think that Elx has one Trinquet, I guess I should have said an active one. Anyway, this is not important.

I got your reply above regarding territorial distribution. Ok, then. So now I am pretty much done with this article at this point. It probably looks a bit better after our recent edits, right?. Mountolive | Talk 20:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, as you can see in the List of Valencian trinquets Elx doesn't appear in bold text, that means there is no trinquet now there or it's not active.

And you are right again, I think this article has improved so much with your help! Now it's time for some English native speaker to think so too!  ;-)

Good job, --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

ahhhh, you are very much correct: I just looked at the list without noticing the bolding advice. Well, I only "polished" the article a little, but for that you had to take before the lion's share of the work, which is creating it, so, thanks, but I don't deserve any congrats. You do. Mountolive | Talk 00:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)