Talk:VHS/Archive 1

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times?

This article must reflect the current times, because when VHS first came out it was not a form of video playing, it simply referred to all types of video (including Beta), for example what is known as VHS now in the UK was originally called PAL.

Sounds like nonsense to me. PAL is the colour-encoding system used for TV transmission used in large parts of the world; it also commonly refers to a 625-line/50Hz PAL picture, but I've never heard it used to refer to any form of video cassette.

I think you're muddling up VHS cassettes for PAL TV systems; I've never heard anyone else make your claims. Fourohfour 17:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It's true. VHS was known as PAL in the UK, just like it was know as NTSC in the USA. If you look at early video cases that are made to hold both kinds of video tape, it says "VHS PAL and VHS BETA". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.116.9 (talk • contribs) .

I'm sorry, this is complete nonsense. I have never heard your claim made *anywhere* else, and I've never heard "PAL" used synonymously with VHS.

Furthermore, although I haven't seen the cases you refer to, it's probable that you're misinterpreting and reading stuff into the meaning of some isolated labelling. Even then, I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion from the label example you gave. Fourohfour 12:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Nonsence is it? Next they'll be saying email and chat rooms started with the Internet and it was the first type of usuage with a modem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.65.39.59 (talk • contribs) .

Meaningless defense. You may as well say something like "My claim [YADDA YADDA YADDA] is nonsense? Next they/you'll be saying that the earth is flat."

I won't, and I won't, so cut the irrelevance, and point us to any plausible evidence that the original claim ("VHS was marketed under the name PAL") is correct and not just misinterpretation. That's all I have to say. Fourohfour 19:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not a meaningless defence, I'm pointing out that some people sometimes change history when something becomes known as something else in another time, which is what the debate is about.. it happens. Also you wonder how I came to that conclusion looking at video cases that said VHS Beta and VHS Pal. Hmm, VHS is before both PAL and Beta on the case... maybe that is why? No?! 74.65.39.59 19:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

PAL is the colour TV standard in most of western Europe, established in the 1960s. It would have been pointless and extremely confusing for the consumers to market a video tape format under that name, 10 years after the word "PAL" was already established with a completely different meaning.

Some time later when people began to send each other video tapes across the Atlantic, they started to realise there was a compatibility problem due to the differing signal formats recorded on the tape, which are conveniently named "PAL", "NTSC" and "SECAM". This may have lead some people to believe that those are names for video tape formats, when they are really television signal formats. This may be the source of the confusion. Anorak2 07:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed, that may just be the case. So I accept that where these cases were printed may have made some kind a mistake based on what you have said (even though I thought otherwise for about 20 years) that probably makes sence. 74.65.39.59 19:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I do wonder why people who have little-to-no technical or historical knowledge bother trying to contribute to this type of article. As has been said, VHS was only, and I mean ONLY, used to describe the tape format we know and love/hate. Any other interpretation would be solely based upon misreading the facts and making baseless assumptions. Hardylane 03:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually "any other interpretation" mentioned here is based on error in information given out. As it happens none of this information was ever added into the article and was just discussed on this talk page, which is why this talk page is here. Wikipedia is an open forum and anyone is free to participate. If you don't like that, then maybe this isn't the place for you be using your wonderful knowledge on the subject of VHS tapes. One thing I do wonder myself, however, is why someone like you would make such a comment more than one year after this particular discussion closed and was settled! 14:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.39.59 (talk)

VHS/Beta race

The VHS/BETA race for popularity should be disscussed in the article. Noldoaran 21:54, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Moved

I moved this from Video Home System to VHS, because that's what it's best known as (sort of like NASA, or—more relevantly—PAL). --Delirium 05:44, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)

Removed from main aritcle

VCRs were taken to court and found to have substantial legitimate uses other than copyright infringing uses in the case of Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios. However, Senator Orrin Hatch has proposed the Induce Act [1], which, if made law, would effectively reverse this ruling.

In November 2004 the British retail group Dixons announced that it would begin phasing out VHS machines in favour of recordable DVD (DVD-R and DVD plus R) and personal video recorders, leading many observers to predict the imminent demise of the VHS system.

Former maybe belongs on main VCR page, latter lacks substance and is best left for the external links section Dtcdthingy 04:25, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How to store? (odd question)

How do you store VHS tapes? Legthwise ( = ) or heightwise ( || )?

Does either affect the tape at all?

I've heard that storing them heightwise (vertically) is best, in case the reels of tape inside the cassette have some "popped strands", which are winds of tape where their edges stick out slightly and aren't flush with the remainder of the tape wind. Storing a cassette horizontally could press down on these popped strands, resulting in small crinkles/creases on the edges of the tape. This could cause some minor tracking errors, since VHS' control track is recorded on the tapes edge, and possibly some muffled audio as well, since the linear audio track of VHS is recorded on the opposite edge of the tape. --misternuvistor 05:15, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Storage orientation is irrelevant. Maintaining constant temperature and humidity is what's important. You'll get the best life out of tapes stored at 60°F - 70°F and RH around 10%-30%. Temperature fluctuations can cause the tape to expand and contract, causing wrinkles in the middle of the tape pack, so maintaining constant temperature is essential. If a tape has been in storage for an extended period, before playing it, it should first be shuttled end-to-end and back, to relieve any accumulated stresses. Avoid atmospheric conditions which could lead to condensation. --Quicksilver 06:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually you're both right, except that storage orientation is NOT irrelevant. They should be stored 'heightwise' (||) as misternuvistor says, and at a moderate, steady temperate, as Quicksilver says. And to make the story complete: store them well away from magnetic sources like speakers, TV screens, amps, etc. Rien Post (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Under colour modulation

This is mentioned and linked to in the article, however the page linked to (under colour addition), doesn't really mention how this system works in VHS. Is there no specific brightness signal, and multiple colour information signals combine to allow darkness information to be recovered in some way? Maybe someone would consider adding more information with respect to VHS in that article. – drw25 (talk) 18:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The link is simply wrong, it's about a print-related process which has nothing to do with video. Someone should create a new video related "colour under" article and change the link to it. The "colour under" process isn't VHS specific, ot's used in many consumer and non-consumer video formats. So it's probably a good idea to keep it separate so that it can be linked from all relevant pages. Anorak2 10:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. There is actually an existing article: Heterodyne. :) Dulldull 19:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Page name

Uh, Video Home System would be a better name and that VHS redirects to this article, and so that people will learn what VHS stands for when they read this article. --PJ Pete

No, because VHS is far and away the most commonly-used name, and was the name used virtually-exclusively (at least in the past 20 or so years) to market the system. That alone is enough reason for VHS to be the title. In addition, there is some dispute over whether "Video Home System" is the correct/official expansion; has it *ever* been used officially? Fourohfour 14:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. In the late 70's/early 80's Video Home System was used extensively. I was there. Hardylane 03:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Notable VHS Companies

Is this really necessary? It looks more like a list of entertainment companies to me. Any comments?

--LesleyW 01:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't even know what it means. Is it just a list of companies that have released VHS tapes, or were all these companies somehow involved in VHS development? If the former, why don't we have a list of all the people in the world who have ever used a VHS tape? --DudeGalea 07:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have moved the list of companies that have marketed pre-recorded VHS cassettes to home video, which is a more appropriate article, since none of them are really concerned with developing the technology and so do not fit into the VHS article. Canadiana 06:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

E180 and E240

This article does not explain what E180 and E240 means on VHS tapes.

Just added, see chapter "Tape Lengths". Anorak2 11:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Tape length table

I added a table showing common tape lengths for North America and Europe. Anyone who can provide the missing data I would welcome them to add it in. --Cab88 13:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I've got a similar table lying around somewhere which I created myself. It's a bit more extensive. Would you mind if I replace it? (won't happen at once, but one of these days ...). Anorak2 13:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Existing table is quite good, but the way the columns swap round, and the way that lengths are written metric(english/imperial) in one, and english/imperial(metric) in the other is also strange. Fourohfour 14:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

If your table is better then by all means. --Cab88 12:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed waffle about VHS/Beta recording times. Implies that Beta had short recording time for most of its life, which is simply wrong. It still says that USA Beta machines limited to 60mins in 1980, which I doubt, but being in UK I can't remove this until verified; someone please look into this. Colin99 00:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please mention somewhere what "SP", "EP" and "SLP" actually stand for? Also, I was under the impression that (in the U.S.) there were three tape speeds allowing for 2, 4 or 6 hours with decreasing degrees of recording quality. Brad 04:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

-- I do believe those stand/stood for "Standard Play, Extended Play, and Super Long Play". They typically were 2,4,and 6 hours respectivly, but I have seen tapes that indicate being recorded in a certain mode, but either were too short or too long for that "mode", usually almost to the next level up or down.

Is it for sure that LP is 2/3 the speed and EP 1/3? I don't know about EP, but LP gives two times the recording time (as also in the table), so isn't it 1/2 the SP speed? Edwing 21:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You need to specifiy if you're talking NTSC or PAL, otherwhise it's unclear what you're asking.

NTSC EP = PAL LP

NTSC SP = 3 times NTSC EP

PAL SP = 2 times PAL LP, thus PAL SP is about 1/3 slower than NTSC SP

NTSC LP = 3/2 NTSC EP, "middle" speed between NTSC EP and NTSC SP and non-standard

PAL EP = 1/3 PAL SP, even slower than PAL LP and non-standard

It's all a bit confusing, the table is supposed to make it clearer. Doesn't it? Anorak2 11:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Lifespan?

Of a VHS tape. From a reliable source.

I'd also like to know VHS's lifespan. I know DVD's last about 4 years. 71.250.17.62 22:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Average lifespan is 10-15 years, but can be 2-3 years if not stored correctly. [2] 71.250.17.62 22:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt if there's a definitive answer, as it's clearly going to depend upon factors such as tape formulation, the conditions in which the tapes are stored, and how often they are played. Some of my own tapes are over 20 years old and are still perfectly playable; some are only 12-15 years old yet look very ropey. (During the early 90s, I made a lot of recordings on cheap off-brand tapes, but in hindsight I really wish I'd used the more expensive ones.) AdorableRuffian 22:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Tapes made in the 70s are notoriously bad. Apparently companies decided to experiment with a cheaper formulation, and sometimes as short as 5 years later, the magnetic material started peeling off the clear plastic tape. Around 1985 the companies reversed their decision and went back to the more-stable stuff. ----- Bottom line if you've got anything from the 1975-85 timeline, you probably have a pile of sticky, gooey black stuff rather than tape. If the tape is still serviceable, copy it immediately. - Theaveng 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I have hundreds of VHS tapes from the 1980s, still in perfect condition. Storage is an important factor. Store them upright (like a book), preferably cool, dust free, and away from magnetic sources like speakers and TVs (obviously). The original quality of the tape does have something to do with it, but generally speaking a properly stored tape should last a few decades. Making safety copies on DVD doesn't hurt, though :-) Rien Post (talk) 21:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Backronym

The article implies that the backronym of VHS = "Video Home System" is an internet phenomenon. In fact, this was the popular meaning given in the 70s too, so it's not new. I remember this particularly because even back then, there were people who pointed out that it 'really' stood for "Vertical Helical Scan". In fact, it's only because there was an argument that I can even recall that anyone claimed it stood for anything! --DudeGalea 14:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"Video Home System" was what JVC called the system back in the late 70s/early 80s; I never once heard any of the JVC guys from Japan refer to it as "Video Helical Scan". That would be an absurd name anyway; ALL domestic videotape formats are "Helical Scan"! However one of them DID mention that the "home" bit was meant to distinguish VHS from Betamax, in that VHS was designed from the ground up as a "Home" video system, as opposed to Betamax which started life as failed semi-professional format. It's not generally known that the original "Beta" format was just a cut-down version of u-matic, with guard bands and a maximum 60 minute playing time, designed purely as an "industrial/educational" format. When that failed to go anywhere, they re-engineered it to halve the tape speed and so give 2 hours play/record time, added a TV tuner and a mechanical alarm clock for a timer and released it as "Betamax". JVC looked at it and thought it wasn't a bad idea, the only problem being the short record time. Not being locked into "using up" any existing engineering, they just designed their own version with a bigger cassette and the rest (and Betamax) is history! If Sony had bitten the bullet and redesigned their deck to take longer tapes, the story might have been very different. But do try not to "reverse-engineer" history. At the time all this was happening nobody had any idea how big the VCR/rental industry was going to become, it was all about recording TV broadcasts.Elekas 08:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The "Vertical Helical Scan" is, as you say, a complete misnomer. As someone who was heavily involved with them at the time, this term was never, ever used as the name, trademark or brand of the system. In the UK, Ferguson, a division of Thorn EMI Industries, repackaged many JVC machines, and used the "Video Home System" name a great deal. We also have the citation here now from one the format's inventors stating the "Video Home System" facts, so I will revert any attempts to establish "Vertical Helical Scan" as the meaning of the acronym. Hardylane 04:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I admit I am a newbie and this is my first foray into Wikipedia, but as a 39 year old geek who remembers VHS's arrival, I strongly remember VHS standing for Vertical Helical Scan, as a child, and indeed read it spelled out as such in at least one magazine in the 70s, perhaps "Which?" in the UK as my parents subscribed to it.

I find it strange that Hardylane, with his particular memories, as old as mine are and as every other editor of this page, should decide he holds a monopoly on history or memory, and has decided the absence of evidence is somehow evidence of absence.

It was Vertical Helical Scan, and such a description is not "absurd", the vertical part refers to the alignment of the tape, in the vertical plane. The helical part is the scan pattern. And there you have it. If it was being named as a description of a home video system, it would have been called "Home Video System" or "HVS", the transposition of the first two initials renders it silly, or "absurd".

A quick Google shows many many pages including Answers.com, stating "Vertical Helical Scan" and some "Victor Helical Scan". I suggest that "Video Home System" is a "backronym" just as the V in DVD now "stands for" versatile, and the I in RAID for "independent". But nobody is trying to deny their origins, only Hardylane is adamant that VHS has always stood for it's corporate meaning today.

Can we at least change the page to be less authoratative on the subject, and say that with pages such as these: http://www.ukamerican.co.uk/site/rssfaq.htm and http://www.vhstodvd.co.uk/history.htm stating Vertical Helical Scan as fact, the page should at least recognise that many people believe the initials began standing for this, and were changed to their current meaning. The only other explanation is mass hysteria.

There's a Japanese movie out by TOEI, and created with the blessing of JVC called Hi wa Mata Noboru. In the movie, they have a scene where they're designing the VHS logo. One guy asks what VHS stands for, and the other says "Video Home System". Because JVC supervised the production of this movie, and seeing JVC invented VHS, I would say that this is compelling evidence that JVC themselves approved of the meaning of VHS. I can post a clip of this part as evidence if needed. I was also in my teens when my parents bought their first VHS unit in 1977 (a Quasar unit), and back then the company referred to VHS as video home system. Groink 08:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and uploaded the clip to my web site. Groink 08:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This does not prove anything, as it's consistent with the hypothesis that it is JVC who are trying to rewrite history and erase the "Vertical Helical Scan" origins of the initials. In any case I just cannot see how Wikipedia can totally ignore the mass of opinion evident from a quick Google, about 3,000 pages contain the exact phrase "Vertical Helical Scan" and VHS on the same page, no way are all of the authors wrong.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Magpie68 (talk • contribs) 10:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, your method of finding source also doesn't prove anything. What you're basically finding is a bunch of web sites that are spreading the same story - that's all Google proves. The difference between you and I is that I found a reliable source from an official source like JVC, while you on the other hard is applying the logic, "Well, if 3000 web sites say the same thing, then it MUST be true!" I can give you hundreds of examples of popular culture - from Britney Spears rumors to the old "Why are manholes round?" - where stories are passed on from site-to-site because 1) it sounds like it could be true, and 2) because they're not encyclopedias like Wikipedia, they don't have to cite or prove that it is true. Up to today, no one - I repeat NO ONE has been able to find an official source from a VHS manufacturer that those three letters actually mean something else. More likely, it MUST be a hardcopy of a advertisement brochure or manual, since back in the 1970s the Internet wasn't commercial. Also, that bit you said about JVC changing the meaning of VHS - exactly why would they even want to do that? It isn't like "vertical helical scan" means "burn in Hell" or "I love Flip Wilson". Again, that's just a rumor no one can prove with a valid reference. Remember - citing sources on Wikipedia isn't just about saying "Here, this guy and that guy is saying the same thing!" You must look under those sources and evaluate whether or not they're just repeaters of the same story. Groink 21:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I never said we should state with any authority that the initials ever stood for Vertical Helical Scan, but that the article should at least recognise the existence of the popular conception that it did. JVC may have decided that VHS sounded more friendly and, just as described in the talk section "backronym", reinvented it when it became clear it was going to mass market. I don't know. But it's conceivable. What's true is a lot of people believe that it did stand for something else, and will come here for clarification, and to not even have the popular (mis)conception recognised (in a similar way to recognising popular myths such as on the article about chameleons, we say "Despite popular belief, chameleons cannot change colour to their surroundings". That's what I recommend. 62.189.169.182 13:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, magpie68, I am not a "he", as my userpage would have indicated. Secondly, I was involved in the sale, promotion and demonstration of this equipment around that time, and nothing in that official literature used this incorrect meaning of the letters VHS. My professional involvement would therefore surely be of greater authority than the memories of a consumer? As someone who worked with these products on a daily basis? I would, in fact, suggest that the mistake has been made by some other media, possibly hobbyist or consumer magazines, and this is perhaps where it was heard... I have no problem with this erroneous backronym being included in the article, but surely only as it stands, which is as being incorrect. The reference already on the article: [3] is from the IEEE website, who are a world-standard professional body. This article clearly states that VHS stood for Video Home System, from the outset. What is the problem here? Hardylane 03:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

As a former video editor I wouldn't be at all surprised if VHS stood for Vertical Helical Scan while the system was still being developed in the JVC labs. Because technically that's what it IS. Makes perfect sense. But no consumer will ever remember such a term and it doesn't sound very catchy either, so Video Home System was PROBABLY invented afterwards to make the marketing a little easier. We'll never know for sure. In short, I think 62.189.169.182's recommendation makes a lot of sense. Mention both. Rien Post (talk) 22:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Pun

In fact it initially stood for Vertical Helical Scan - 'initially' 'stood for'. Very good! I was tempted to change it, but I think it's quite nice. :-) --DudeGalea 06:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's lovely. :ö) Edwing 21:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Do PAL E360 tapes exist?

I remember an advert on tv for them many years ago but I cant find any information to proove it though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atirage (talk • contribs) .

Probably best to leave it out then; at any rate, I've never heard of anything longer than a PAL E300 (and they were rare in the UK though not- apparently- Germany). Fourohfour 16:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

They might have popped up briefly before being withdrawn for reliability / picture quality reasons... I have a few E300s, but they are all of the same brand, from the same store, as that's the only place I ever found them on sale. The quality was alright for time-shift recording, but not so hot for the intended purposes (archive recordings and use with a PC backup-to-VHS card). 193.63.174.10 (talk) 09:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Better picture

I think we could do with a better picture of a VHS tape. The one used has a US coin for scale, but only people who live in the US know how big the coin is. A ruler would be better.

I don't have any VHS tapes any more, otherwise I'd make one. 217.154.30.28 21:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that using US coins for scale is a bad idea; however, I dislike the use of rulers. We can already say that something is XX inches. Putting a ruler in the photo simply *shows* that it's XX inches, but we already know that; having it in the photo is just redundant and intrusive.

It could be argued that a ruler provides visual scale, but it's not the best choice for that. Rulers vary in width, so a wide 30cm ruler may look similar to a narrower 15cm ruler in a photo. For this reason, I think an audio cassette might be a better size-comparison. Fourohfour 22:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the VHS tape is ubiquitous enough to serve as a measurement standard itself. In other words, if someone really doesn't know how large a VHS tape is, then they're not likely to know how big any other 'standard' object is either. Maybe in 10-20 years' time when the young 'uns have never seen a VHS before. Right now, I think the VHS is probably better known than the audio cassette. I've certainly used VHS much more recently than the last time I used an audio cassette (sometime in the late 1990s). --DudeGalea 06:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

"I think the VHS tape is ubiquitous enough to serve as a measurement standard itself. In other words, if someone really doesn't know how large a VHS tape is, then they're not likely to know how big any other 'standard' object is either."

Maybe so. However, if we accept that argument, then there's no reason to have the picture there in the first place, as everyone (supposedly) already knows what a VHS tape looks like. :-) AdorableRuffian 22:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

How about comparing to a CD/DVD then? That's a standard that's current, and so ubiquitious and entrenched that most people who are interested in the subject will recognise it, and it will take at least a decade (or two) to be "unrecognisable to the youth" even if it was withdrawn tomorrow. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 09:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

VHS Releases

Uh...officially, new releases on VHS was discontinued after 2005, because, there were no films released on VHS in 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.56.136 (talk • contribs)

Who defines "officially".... the big movie companies or every company putting stuff out? Where in the world does this apply, the US or in every country? This is pretty pointless without qualification and backup. Fourohfour 17:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the use of the word "official" isn't the right way to approach the idea. However, a community can also agree to an "official" date of sorts, based on a pattern of activities which lead to the conclusion. This is very much like when everyone agreed that disco music "officially" died when Studio 57 was shut down. It is the same thing with VHS. You won't see an authorative figure pounding his or her fist down and say, "As of XXXX date, movies in VHS will cease production." But when you don't see a single company releasing VHS movie in 2006, then you can very much draw this sort of a conclusion. Yes, disco will always be alive for infinity, but VHS is a tangible item that its life can physically be measured. Groink 04:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Re-format the "DVD and the decline of the VHS" section

Seeing DVD hasn't totally killed VHS, it would be good to modify this section to be a more generalized "decline of the VHS" section that include various technologies that will, together, kill VHS. Suggestions on sub-sections within the "decline" section include:

• Optical disc-based technologies, including DVD, HD DVD and Blu-ray.
• Tapeless digital video recorders (DVR), such as hard disk drive-based systems like TiVo and Scientific Atlanta, and PC-based systems like Windows Media Center.

Or, if the "decline" section becomes much too large for the VHS article, create a separate "Decline of VHS" article. Groink 23:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I've went ahead and performed the re-org. Groink 23:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say DVD has largely killed VHS in Australia, at least. There's only 1 Movie Rental place within about 20km of here that rents VHS tapes, I haven't seen new VHS pre-recorded movies for sale outside the bargain bin at Target for a couple of years now, and most of the new VHS players that are being sold tend to be simply for recording shows off TV, as DVD Recorders are still $300 and a new VHS player can be had for $70 or so, depending where you shop. --Commander Zulu 03:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)