Talk:University of Central Oklahoma

RfC: Is UCO oldest in Oklahoma

Ongoing on this talk page discussing weather or not UCO is the oldest university/college in Oklahoma. Sources show its not but it keeps being changed.--CPacker ^{talk to me} 23:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello, just came here when I saw it listed in RFC. Is there some reason why we can't simply outline the dispute? They're both decently valuable sources. There should be a simple way to list the discrepancy and let readers decide for themselves. That way we aren't trying to judge the truth ourselves, when we simply don't have the facts to do that. I've seen lots of people carrying out this argument in the revisions history, but I'd like to see some discussion here. As a newcomer to the debate, can folks please bring forth their sourcing here in talk so we can work out what's what? Thanks. — e. ripley\^talk 22:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I discussed the issue a little bit in the section above. One source (the UCO website) says it is the oldest school, whereas The Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education says that is NSU. However, there have been seven sources added since supporting OCU being the oldest, but two are from the OCU website, ones does not support the claim (saying it is "one of the oldest"), one is about.com (not a reliable source), one is something quoted in a yahoo directory (not reliable), and one seems to be more credible than the rest. However, since reliable sources say that NSU was founded decades prior to UCO's founding date of 1890, this is questionable. For now, I will remove all but the one good recently-added source. Okiefromokla ^questions? 02:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Correction: There are two sources that seem, at least at face value, more reliable than the others. I left those two. Okiefromokla ^questions? 02:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'll do it. I'm laying out here the sourcing used (including the ones Okiefromokla deleted) and why they are or aren't adequate as well as facts gleaned from those that are acceptable as reliable sources. Generally, we should use material that is as close to the source as possible; the rest is superfluous.

[1] A timeline from UCO's own archives. Perfectly legitimate to establish its own founding date (1890).

[2] Another UCO page that mentions its founding date; also legitimate but we don't need both this one and the one above.

[3] Ditto above.

[4] About.com is typically a rehash of information found online in other places; it is not particularly credible.

[5] US News is a fine source (although they likely got the "oldest" assertion from the college itself), but I don't think it's particularly necessary since we can compare the dates of founding ourselves.

[6] This link could disappear at any time; though the information seems to have come from the college, I would prefer it not be used. It's not particularly reliable as a source, and beyond which, it doesn't say anything the reliable sources don't.

[7] Not at all reliable to prove much of anything.

So, to recap the list, we have two sources from the same place (UCO) both suggesting the college was founded in 1890. Let's get beyond their claim that it's the oldest and focus on founding dates. Someone mentioned that there's a page from the regents saying another institution is older, but I haven't seen a link to it. Can you provide that please? Meanwhile I'm going to add back the UCO link to support the 1890 date; the rest are really unnecessary. — e. ripley\^talk 04:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I poked around a bit and found that Northeastern State U was originally founded in 1851 as the "Cherokee Female Seminary." However, the claim that UCO is making is that they are the oldest institution of higher education, not simply the oldest school, and it's not clear to me whether the Cherokee Female Seminary was in fact a collegiate-level institution. In fact, it would seem that it was not; at least, not at its founding, according to this [8]. In identical, three-story, brick structures, the Cherokee Nation offered students a high school education. Then, we need to figure out in what year the school became a university, or at least, when it began offering collegiate-level classes. (Here is another source that would seem to support the idea that at least at some point they offered collegiate classes [9]) — e. ripley\^talk 04:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The first instance I've found referring to the school as offering collegiate classes is here: [10] "On March 6, 1909, the State Legislature of Oklahoma passed an act providing for the creation and location of Northeastern State Normal School at Tahlequah, Oklahoma, and for the purchase from the Cherokee Tribal Government of the building, land, and equipment of the Cherokee Female Seminary. The educational program of the normal school consisted of four years of high school and two years of college level study. This is the first reference I've found to collegiate-level classes there, and that is not until 1909. Still looking. Here's a source that says at least part of the seminary's mission was to provide "higher education to women." In 1851 this may have had a different meaning than in modernity... however it does make the case. [11] — e. ripley\^talk 05:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok well here is a link [12] showing iformation on Council Bill #106 which was the bill that created the University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University and the University of Central Oklahoma all in Dec of 1890. This source says OU became a university by law on Dec 24 the same day as UCO (here is a link to their own website stating that [13]). So this already makes ou, osu and uco the same age because they were all signed into law on Dec. 24 1890. But NSU was est in 1851 and in 1909 purchesed by the state making it the oldest school of higher education in the state not that it is the oldest state est school in oklahoma. Also Bacone College was founded in 1880, ten years before uco, ou, and osu. Here is a link from the Oklahoma Association of Colleges for Teacher Education showing this information [14].--CPacker ^{talk to me} 06:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This Bacone College may be a bit of a slippery slope; it wasn't accredited until 2001. It's a bit like comparing apples to oranges to compare it with the other colleges. Instead of getting into all that, (for now) let's stick to trying to figure out whether or not the Cherokee Female Seminary offered collegiate-level classes before 1890, and can revisit this later if needed. Do you have a source that would prove or disprove that question? — e. ripley\^talk 06:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link [15] from the Oklahoman saying that "The Cherokee National Male Seminary opened May 6, 1851, and the Cherokee National Female Seminary opened the next day to fulfill the terms of the Treaty of 1835 between the United States and the Cherokee Nation. The treaty stipulated that public and higher education be provided for the Cherokees." Here is link [16] from the University of Tulsa stating (Article 11) "The sum of one hundred and sixty thousand dollars, to constitute a permanent school fund, the interest of which shall be applied annually by the Council of the Nation for the support of common schools, and such a literary institution of a higher order as may be established in the Indian country". So here are two links from reputable sources stating that the Cherokee's taught higher education.--CPacker ^{talk to me} 20:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. So at least the school was intended to offer whatever passed for "higher education" in that time. I'm not so sure what that would have meant in 1850, as opposed to 1890; in any case, what I would propose is something like this: "The University of Central Oklahoma claims to be the oldest institution of higher education in the state [ref], however the Cherokee National Female Seminary, which later became UNO, when it was established in 1851 was tasked with providing "public and higher education" in Oklahoma decades before UCO was founded [ref]." You see what I'm getting at. We can thus present both sides and folks can decide how they like. How's that? — e. ripley\^talk 20:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I like it, I have no objection. Good suggestion. Although, for the final draft of that sentence, it should be NSU, not UCO, and if we remove "when it was established in 1851", the sentence would read better. In any case, thanks for the very good and thorough look into this issue, E. Ripley. Okiefromokla ^questions? 07:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well im not trying to beat a dead horse but if UCO says there the oldest would OU and OSU say they were the oldest too sense all three were founded on the same day? I think it should be reworded to somthing like "UCO was founded on December 24, 1890 along with the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State University by the Oklahoma territorial government becoming one of the three original state founded universities [17]. What do you guys think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CPacker (talk • contribs)

Well, I see what you're saying -- if they were all founded at the same time that would tend to make them all the same age. But that does nothing to address the claim that UCO makes quite publicly and in many places. We are not really tasked with determining the truth of something, only presenting properly-sourced and verifiable claims. I think your sentence tends to border too closely on passing judgement on the truth of UCO's claim by simply excluding it; although perhaps we can mention after that that UCO claims to be the oldest despite their establishment dates. I find that really curious if they were all created on the same date; why would they do that? Was there some significant gap in their actually opening their doors? I feel like we're missing something. Anyway, I'll craft something more elegant than what I mentioned a bit above this and place it in the article tonight. — e. ripley\^talk 20:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I contacted the school to find out some more info this is the email I recived back:

Caleb, While all three institutions were established by the legislature on the same day, UCO, then called the Territorial Normal School of Oklahoma, was the first institution to conduct classes. It was also the first institution in the territory to construct a building, Old North, for the purpose of high education. See the article at the following link. I hope this answers your question. Nicole Willard

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/U/UN009.html

So their reasoning for saying they are the oldest is that they were first to hold classes. Not that they are the oldest in Oklahoma. Hope this helps. --CPacker ^{talk to me} 18:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That's something similar to what I thought it might be, although honestly we can't simply use this answer in formulating how we treat the article. That would be considered original research, which Wikipedia forbids. What we can do, however, is quote from an already-published source, which it appears this link is. That's helpful. What we can do, then, is say that they claim to be the oldest institute of higher education in the state, then we can use that article to back up the reasons. I'll see what I can formulate here in a moment. — e. ripley\^talk 18:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I've couched their claim in the intro paragraph, then expanded on it in the history section. Take a look and see what you think. — e. ripley\^talk 19:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)