Talk:United States military aid to Israel

Untitled

There was also a deletion review, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, related to this incident report: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. --Timeshifter 00:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone has recently started an overall article called United States military aid. The article in question here, United States military aid to Israel, is already too long to merge with that overall article. It is also too long to merge with Israel-United States relations#United States military and economic aid. So WP:NPOV help is needed here to fill out this article more. --Timeshifter 00:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Another article has recently been started: Israel-United States military relations. That great page covers some of the same material in United States military aid to Israel. But it does not have the detailed weapons lists. And it is not as detailed in some areas of the funding info, tables, and notes. I would like to see more info on the controversial weapons such as land mines, cluster bombs, flechette bombs and tank rounds, depleted uranium rounds, etc.. This is not a partisan POV desire to focus criticism on Israel or the USA. It is an ongoing controversy worldwide concerning these and other weapons being used, sold, traded, or given away to any nation from any nation. I would also like to see articles on Iranian military aid to Hezbollah. There is a small section about this in Military and economic aid in the 2006 Lebanon War. I would like to see a spinout article on it.

I would also like to see United States military aid to Colombia. There is the article, U.S.-Colombia military relations, but I could not find anything so far in my quick skim of the page about specific weapons. The overall article called United States military aid could be used to catalog some of the funding and weapons to various nations. One nation per subheading. Spinout articles can be created if needed for some nations if any subsection becomes too big. --Timeshifter 15:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

There is some related info at Arms industry, but it is more of a general article, and does not have much of a breakdown for individual nations, and bilateral transfers. --Timeshifter 15:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

List of weapons transferred

Tewfik blanked a large part of the article with this edit summary:

"rmv list, suggest merge"

Lists are common on wikipedia. Certain kinds of lists are OK. See: WP:NOT#DIR (emphasis added):

Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed. Wikipedia articles are not:

1. Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. This site search, and this one, pull up thousands of examples of lists and comparison tables. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are certainly permitted; see List of locations in Spira for an example.

The list of weapons is not "loosely associated". It is a very specific list. --Timeshifter 11:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Why does everything have to be an edit-war with you? The "list" has no source tying it to anything, much less the topic of this page. Tewfik^Talk 15:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't do mass reversions as you do. I give people a chance usually before deleting stuff. Unless it is vandalism or really inflammatory unsourced stuff, I usually ask on the talk page for citations, references, etc. before deleting stuff. There is a reference section to the article. It looks like the list was taken from those references. It needs to be clarified, though. Maybe the other editors of this page can explain. --Timeshifter 15:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Tewfik, you again blanked the same large part of the page with this edit summary: "rmv unsourced information; the burden is on the user 'inserting' the information". Here is the [diff]. You did not bother to check the reference section before blanking. So the material was sourced. If this blanking continues I will report you to WP:ANI. Did you know that some editors have been banned from editing certain topics on wikipedia? Your habit of mass reversions of sourced material could cause this to happen to you. Just a friendly warning as required by wikipedia dispute resolution before escalating to other levels of dispute resolution such as WP:ANI, etc..--Timeshifter 16:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, your source does not say that this list of materiel was aid, hence it is OR at best. I request here, as I have elsewhere, that you stop the threats and "friendly warnings". 17:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You;ve included the list of weapons again. The appendix is titled "U.S.-SUPPLIED WEAPONRY" and has no reference to aid. You'll need to produce such a reference to include this information. Tewfik^Talk 21:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a quote from that same reference PDF. It shows that it is aid. Concerning warnings - As I have said before I am only following wikipedia protocol. Go to the warning template chart and see the many levels of warnings given:

Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace --Timeshifter 21:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If the U.S. supplies these weapons to Israel it's military aid, isn't it? Or don't these weapons aid Israel in some way? -- Kendrick7^talk 21:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Only weapons supplied as military aid are "military aid", and we do not define every purchaser of weapons to be subject to such aid. The list makes no claim of being the result of such aid. Tewfik^Talk 21:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

But if the U.S. is giving Israel the money with the understanding the Israel is going to go right out and spend it to buy these weapon systems from U.S. contractors (?) that's no different than the U.S. buying the weapons and giving them to Israel. I haven't looked at this particular source, but from the sources I have seen, that's the impression I've gotten as to how this aid-system works; we shouldn't wish to hide the reality behind fancy accounting tricks.... -- Kendrick7^talk 21:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. I think the latest quotes make the accounting involved in this military aid more clear. The 2 PDF files cover it in great detail. --Timeshifter 21:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The source specifically doesn't say that this list is the result of aid. That conclusion is OR. Part of the reason they can't make that claim is because the Israelis pay for a portion of US weapons out of pocket. Tewfik^Talk 21:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. The quotes now make it clear that the bulk of the weapon system costs is borne by the USA. --Timeshifter 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if I accepted that, we cannot include a specific list, much of which could have been, but some of which you admit was not. Tewfik^Talk 22:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes we can, because the quotes now make it clear. --Timeshifter 22:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

None of the sources you have presented say that the list is military aid. The quotes imply that some of it may be. We only include verifiable information, and not "maybe". Tewfik^Talk 22:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I just clarified the list further after reading your last comment. I also changed the section title. --Timeshifter 22:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That section looks like a bad case of OR. Some systems were developed jointly. What does it mean, "Weapon systems" or "U.S.-supplied weapon systems"? Are we publishing similar rosters for all armies or singling out Israel only? And where did the number 362 F-16 come from? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

See my comment below to Tewfik. Feel free to clarify things, and to create similar articles for other nations. --Timeshifter 07:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't include information with the "clarification" that some of it is untrue. The source does not say that that list is aid, and including it is simply OR. Tewfik^Talk 00:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a list of U.S.-supplied weapon systems. As the title of the section explains. That is clear now. The quotes at the beginning also explain that most of it is purchased with U.S. military aid money. That is also now clear. If you have further problems, clarify the section, don't delete it. This page survived an AFD. See the top of this talk page. Tewfik, you are trying a roundabout way of deleting the page in parts. If you delete the list again, I am reporting you to WP:ANI. --Timeshifter 07:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"It is a list of U.S.-supplied weapon systems" - exactly, and the sources do not claim that it is a list of things given as military aid, which is the topic of this page. Hence including the list is original research. Feel free to report me to wherever you like, as you even admit that your sources do not make that claim. Tewfik^Talk 07:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The info below is from the introduction to the list in the section currently titled "U.S.-supplied weapon systems". The quotes clarify the list. Further clarification, not deletion, may be needed. Can we not be civil here, Tewfik? Introduction begins:

(this is not a comprehensive listing)

The list below is from Appendix 1 of "U.S. Military Assistance and Arms Transfers to Israel: U.S. Aid, Companies Fuel Israeli Military." A World Policy Institute Issue Brief. By Frida Berrigan and William D. Hartung. July 20, 2006.

Appendix 1 is titled "U.S.-Supplied Weaponry in Israel’s Military Inventory"

From that report: "The bulk of Israel’s current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. military aid programs."

From another report (January 2006): "Recent U.S. Military Sales to Israel. Israel uses almost 75% of its FMF [Foreign Military Financing (direct military aid)] funds to purchase U.S. defense equipment."

So the above info is in the current introduction.--Timeshifter 07:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

OR with a disclaimer is still OR. You are explicitly saying that your source does not call that the list military aid. It only says they came from the US. Tewfik^Talk 07:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not original research. Everything is sourced. Follow the footnote links in that section of the article.--Timeshifter 08:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've read through and I agree it it is OR. The sources say it is supplied by the US, but do not say through aid. They even say that not all israeli weapons are from aid. In other words, the fact Israel has american weapons doesn't mean it's from aid. Actually, Israel both imports and exports weapons. Israel has financial aid which then Israel obligates to buy weapons from the United States so it comes back to American economy + there's regular trade. We can't do these leaps. In fact, there's a great deal of misinformation about the issues. Aid to Israel is not very large and has been cut in recent years. Is there an article described the even greater American Aid to Egypt - and if so it should be made in the same form. Amoruso 08:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

All the info in that article section is sourced. Just below is a link to the last intact revision of the article before you blanked a large section of sourced material from the article, Amoruso.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&oldid=127900153

Here is the diff of your blanking, Amoruso:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&diff=127904486&oldid=127900153

See the following talk sections below for more info. --Timeshifter 08:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"Article for deletion" (AFD) report

United States military aid to Israel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. The original closing admin (Doc) wrote: "The result was KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages." Another admin deleted that closing improperly, and changed the closing admin comment to "The result was Delete - with a strong suggestion to merge." See: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. During the DRV, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, the original closing admin (Doc) clarified his closing comment and changed it to, "The result was No Consensus = default KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages". The DRV closing admin wrote: "After examining the comments carefully (and ignoring the boldfaces here, which were often confused), there is a ~75% consensus in support of Doc's original closure. Relisting is at editorial option; merge discussions belong on the appropriate talk pages." --Timeshifter 07:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There are overall articles called United States military aid and Israel-United States military relations. The list of U.S.-supplied weapons systems in the article in question here, United States military aid to Israel, is already too long to merge with those 2 articles. It is also too long to merge with Israel-United States relations#United States military and economic aid. WP:NPOV help is needed to fill out this spinout article more. --Timeshifter 07:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

A WP:ANI incident report has been filed

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#United States military aid to Israel. Here is the initial report:

Some editors are trying to delete the weapon systems list from this article. It is the main part of this article. Here is the last revision of the intact article:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&oldid=127900153

This article already survived a recent AFD, a recent incident report, and a recent DRV.

United States military aid to Israel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. The original closing admin (Doc) wrote: "The result was KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages." Another admin deleted that closing improperly, and changed the closing admin comment to "The result was Delete - with a strong suggestion to merge." See: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. During the DRV, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, the original closing admin (Doc) clarified his closing comment and changed it to, "The result was No Consensus = default KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages". The DRV closing admin wrote: "After examining the comments carefully (and ignoring the boldfaces here, which were often confused), there is a ~75% consensus in support of Doc's original closure. Relisting is at editorial option; merge discussions belong on the appropriate talk pages." There are overall articles called United States military aid and Israel-United States military relations. The list of U.S.-supplied weapons systems in the article in question here, United States military aid to Israel, is already too long to merge with those 2 articles. It is also too long to merge with Israel-United States relations#United States military and economic aid. WP:NPOV help is needed to maintain and to fill out this spinout article more. --Timeshifter 08:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please make your comments at the incident report location, or below.--Timeshifter 08:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Changed to more condensed form of list

Here is the diff for the change.

Below is one example of a condensed format of the list. An example is found at this revision: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&oldid=127920677 --Timeshifter 10:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

U.S.-supplied weapon systems

(this is not a comprehensive listing)

The list below is of U.S.-supplied weapon systems paid for from funding provided by the USA, by Israel alone, or by a combination of funding from both nations. The list is from Appendix 1 of "U.S. Military Assistance and Arms Transfers to Israel: U.S. Aid, Companies Fuel Israeli Military." A World Policy Institute Issue Brief. By Frida Berrigan and William D. Hartung. July 20, 2006. Appendix 1 is titled "U.S.-Supplied Weaponry in Israel’s Military Inventory". From that report: "The bulk of Israel’s current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. military aid programs.". From another report (January 2006): "Recent U.S. Military Sales to Israel. Israel uses almost 75% of its FMF [Foreign Military Financing (direct military aid)] funds to purchase U.S. defense equipment."

Military aircraft:

Fighter aircraft. A-4 Skyhawk. F-15 Eagle. F-15I. F-16 Fighting Falcon. F-16I. Israel has the world's largest F-16 fleet outside the United States Air Force. With the delivery of 102 F-16Is, scheduled through 2008, the Israeli Air Force will have a total F-16 inventory of 362, in addition to 89 F-15s.

Transport planes. C-130 Hercules. Boeing 707. Gulfstream G-550.

Utility aircraft. Cessna 206.

Training aircraft. Northrop Grumman TA-4.

Attack helicopters. AH-1 Cobra. AH-64 Apache. AH-64D Apache. CH-53 Sea Stallion.

Utility, cargo, and support helicopters. Bell 206. Bell 212. C-47. Sikorsky S-70. UH-60A Black Hawk.

Land warfare systems:

Armoured personnel carriers. Over 6000 M-113.

Tanks. Over 700 M-60 Patton tanks.

Assault rifles. M16. CAR-15. M4 carbine

Sniper rifles. M82. M24 Sniper Weapon System. SR-25. Ruger 10/22

Machine guns. M1919 Browning machine gun. M2 Browning machine gun

Shotguns. Remington 870. Mossberg 695

Artillery. M109 howitzer. M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System.

Munitions. Precision guided bombs. Bunker buster bombs. Missiles (air-to-air, surface-to-air, anti-ballistic, e.g. MIM-104 Patriot)

Missiles:

Man-portable air defense missiles. Stinger.

Surface-to-air missiles. Redeye.

Tactical Air-to-Ground missiles. Hellfire, Walleye, Maverick, Standard.

Tactical Air-to-Air missiles. AMRAAM, Sparrow, Sidewinder.

Air-to-surface missiles. PAC-2.

Sea-to-sea missiles. Harpoon missiles.

References

---

Open to other ideas, too. --Timeshifter 10:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the list from here: this is a talk page. You were asked earlier not to crosspost long paragraphs of the same text to many places. Repeating OR doesn't make it less OR and the Delrev does not endorse your OR either. BTW, I have asked you about the number 362. Where is it from? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I returned the suggested changes. Editing other editor's comments on talk pages is against WP:TALK. We are discussing changes to the article. It is common to post suggested changes to talk pages. If this talk page deletion continues I will post another report to WP:ANI or WP:AN. --Timeshifter 10:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I missed the fact that USer:Humus Sapiens deleted the section you added almost immediately. My edits afterward were not an endorsement of this move, but I am unsure how to return the material now. Could you restore the list you would like to see included to the talk page again (I notice he just deleted above). It would be helpful so that others can reinsert it when it is summarily deleted without rhyme or reason so that you don't end up violating 3RR fighting this kind of editing (the deletion of sourced, reliable and relevant information) which really constitutes vandalism. Tiamut 11:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry thanks. I see it now. Will just copy and past it back in myself. Tiamut 11:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Not any of the sources make a connection between the list, in whatever form, and military aid. that is your own logic, your own OR. Tewfik^Talk 17:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Would someone please care to quote the lines in the included references that say that that list of weapons is military aid? What I see is an appendix listing many of the weapons included (some of them aren't even mentioned there, like the small arms) title "U.S.-SUPPLIED WEAPONRY" - ie, some probably were aid, some were purchased, with no distinction. The WPI report says "The bulk of Israel’s current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. military aid programs" - ie some is not, in addition to not specifically mentioning what was and what wasn't. Under "Recent U.S. Military Sales to Israel", the CRS report says "Israel uses almost 75% of its FMF [Foreign Military Financing (direct military aid)] funds to purchase U.S. defense equipment." - that has no relevance at all, since in addition to not tying the money to any specific products, it doesn't even say what part of the purchase is is FMF. Tewfik^Talk 22:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

You just answered your own question. The list makes no claim to be a list of strictly 100% military-aid-paid-for weapon systems. --Timeshifter 00:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It makes no claim of any aid for any part of it. While it is likely that parts of it have aid involved, drawing that connection without explicit sourcing is OR. Tewfik^Talk 01:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR says that

"Original research (OR) is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."

It is in no way novel to list US munitions in the report cited above as forming part of the US military aid program. The report itself states that The bulk of Israel’s current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. military aid programs. In other words, the information is contextualized and while there may be one or two items in the list that were not purchased directly using military aid, the prefacing of the remarks as such does not mislead the reader, nor does it in any way constitute original research. Tiamut 09:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Should we merge this into the recently created Israel-United States military relations? —Ashley Y 02:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

That discussion is already being held here. Tewfik^Talk 02:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

But that's the wrong place for it, isn't it? This is the article that would be turned into a redirect if they were merged. —Ashley Y 02:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is appropriate to merge it now, it was a fairly weak article when it was standing alone. I knew the basic details outlined in this version, but I learned a bunch of stuff I didn't know by reading through Israel-United States military relations (an article that I expect to be expanded significantly as we don't yet have a proper time-line of the unfolding of events.) --70.48.68.155 04:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Given that it's only been a few days since its AfD/DRV and associated drama, we should probably give it awhile to see if anyone objects -- in particular, people who voted "keep". —Ashley Y 08:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm against a merger for now, particularly when those supporting it are the ones gutting the article. Tiamut 09:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

To clarify: I would be for a merger if it retains all sourced and relevant material from this article not currently included in the other. Tiamut 13:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I've now moved across the sourced and relevant content into Israel-United States military relations. If people are happy with the merger, I'll go ahead and turn this article into a redirect. -- ChrisO 18:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems ok to me. -- Kendrick7^talk 18:38, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like the main stuff has been merged. Any other remaining relevant sourced info can be found in the revision history here and in the talk page here. So as long as those are kept after the redirect, it is OK by me to redirect. --Timeshifter 14:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Gutting the article

See this diff: [1]. Isarig and Tewfik have in four edits, cut down this article's length by half, removing sourced and referenced information on the most spurious on bases. Isarig didn't either bother to discuss his deletions, while Tewfik repeats the same old WP:OR argument over and over without understanding that WP:OR does not apply here (See my comments above). Tiamut 09:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

We can save all the gutted links. I have no problem merging this article with Israel-United States military relations if all the references are used in some way in the new article, and if all the U.S.-supplied weapon systems are listed in the new article. All the tables are already in the other article, I believe. Not sure. Someone can check. So feel free everybody to add to this list below of citation/reference links and external links found in various revisions of the article. These are additional links beyond those used for references for the list of U.S.-supplied weapon systems higher up on this talk page. Feel free to duplicate some of those below if you can add additional reference link details. It would probably be wise to save this talk page to your own PC, in case it gets deleted after the probable merge.--Timeshifter 10:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

United States military aid to Israel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Most of this article will probably be merged with Israel-United States military relations. Then this article title will probably be redirected to Israel-United States military relations. We will still have the history, revisions, and talk available by the links bar at the beginning of this paragraph. So anybody can pull up anything and possibly incorporate any remaining good sourced info into the other article. --Timeshifter 13:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I explained my edits in my edit summary. the title of this article is "United States military aid to Israel. A US law that makes complying with an Arab economic boycott of Israel illegal may be helpful to Israel, but is not "military aid". Ditto for the factoid that Israeli companies deal directly with American companies. The claim that the US underwrote R&D for the Merkava project, a project begun and for the most part completed years before large scale US aid to Israel was available, is dubious and unmentioned in the Merkava article itself. The claim is sourced so I have not removed it, but clarified that this is a claim, not established fact. Isarig 14:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

US funding of Merkava development sources

Isarig, I don't know what source you were originally concerned about regarding the Merkava/Lavi - US funding link, but it is establish fact and there are many of reliable references to back it up. Here is a sentence snipped from the Israeli-based MERIA journal:

"The United States also agreed to fund indigenous development of weapons by Israel, including the Merkava tank and the Lavi combat aircraft. Before the project was canceled in 1987, the Americans provided $2 billion towards the Lavi program."[2]

Here is part of a State Department report on the matter:

"In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects."[3]

--64.230.121.213 18:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Citations/references and external links. For possible merging

• "More than 50 Lockheed Martin F-16s planned for Israel, more than $2 billion value". Lockheed Martin press release. June 19, 2001.
• "Lockheed Martin, Israel mark F-16I first flight". Lockheed Martin press release. December 23, 2003.