Talk:1832 United Kingdom general election

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File:1833 UK Election Map.png Nominated for Deletion

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Requested move 27 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran(talk) 09:18, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom general election, 1832 → United Kingdom general election, 1832–33 – Voting in this election ended in 1833. See United States presidential election, 1788–89 for precedent. --Neve:selbert 17:37, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Makes perfect sense. Shadow007 (talk) 23:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Spans two years. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:17, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Factually correct. Number 5 7 11:40, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME - usually referred to as the 1832 general election, both in Craig or Rallings & Thrasher, and in general works. As article states, almost all contests were held in 1832, so the convention is understandable. Warofdreams talk 01:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name

This should be moved back to the old name. Google returns 81 results for "1832 general election" versus 31 results for "1832-33 general election" (all of those results are Wikipedia articles that have been edited to include the changed title) and 47 results for "general election of 1832" versus 1 result for "general election of 1832-33" (which is a typo in the Google result). The standard reference works for this period (e.g. the New Oxford History of England) describe this as the "1832 election" or the "election of 1832". There is no evidence that the common name of this election includes 1833.--Britannicus (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, though I would, given that I opposed the recent move! Warofdreams talk 18:36, 10 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, while the History of Parliament hasn't produced the volume covering the 1832 election yet, they seem to use "the 1832 general election" or similar when they mention it in the 1820-32 volume. I would be tempted to say we should use them as the standard reference point! Andrew Gray (talk) 18:14, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus is to move all the pages/subpages as proposed. The only oppose presented in the discussion is regarding use of subpages in article, which is currently being discussed at Talk:List of MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election, 1832#Use of subpages. —usernamekiran(talk) 18:35, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– the current titles were adopted at a RM discussion in February 2018. That renaming from "1832" to "1832–33" was based on original research by the nominator, rather than on the name used in reliable sources, per policy at WP:COMMONNAME. As noted above by others since the close of that discussion, and evidenced as in the table below, reliable sources overwhelmingly support using the single year 1832 as the date of this election. Particular weight should be attached to the evidence below of usage in the extensive scholarly and authoritative work of The History of Parliament Trust.
The balance of numbers in the previous discussion supported the move, but WP:NOTVOTE, and the only !vote founded in policy was the lone oppose which correctly invoked WP:COMMONNAME. The non-admin closure by @Usernamekiran appears to have just made a headcount, and as such did not follow the closing instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Determining_consensus. The previous closure was manifestly flawed, but rather than take it to WP:MOVEREVIEW, it seems simpler to just open a new move discussion to seek a positive consensus on the substantive issue. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:48, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Usage in reliable sources:

The two most authoritative referencs books on elections to the Parliament of the United Kingdom are F. W. S. Craig's series multi-volume series "British parliamentary election results", and the single-volume multiple-edition "British Electoral Facts" initiated by Craig and updated since by Colin Rallings and Michael Thrasher. Both use 1832 rather than any variant of year-span 1832–33
The following searches were all conducted today. All are linked, to allow verification.
Per WP:COMMONNAME's guidance When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources, I searched Google Books rather than doing a general google web search. Since Google News is unlike to be helpful in searching a 186-year-old topic, I searched Google Scholar instead. I also searched JSTOR, which consists solely of scholarly journals and books.
However, the first search uses Google to check the History of Parliament Online, a massive scholarly exercise which has been underway since the 1940s, writing biographies of every single member of the UK Parliament and its predecessors the Parliament of England and the Parliament of Great Britain. So far it has completed its work only up to 1832, but many of the Member of Parliament (MPs) whose biogs are included in preceding period contested the 1832 election, and many served for years after that date. So there are plentiful references to that election. As can be seen and verified below, the History of Parliament uses only the single year, and never a year span.
Note that in the table below, I conducted separate searches for each variant of year span ("1832-33 and 1832-1833"), and also duplicates each of those searches using an endash rather than a hyphen. The endash appears to make no difference to the result. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:51, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source	"1832 general election"	"1832-33 general election"	"1832–33 general election"
The History of Parliament	255	0	0
Google Books	184	12	12
Google Scholar	54	1	1
JSTOR	15	0	0

Pinging the participants in the February 2018 RM discussion: @Neveselbert, Shadow007, Lugnuts, Number 57, and Warofdreams, plus the closer @Usernamekiran.

Alos pinging the three editors who commented after its closure: @Britannicus, Warofdreams, and Andrew Gray. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:57, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support move per the excellent detective work from BHG, above. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:07, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move, thank you for a much more detailed and thorough investigation than I conducted last time. Warofdreams talk 13:13, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Elections and Referendums has been notified.[1] --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:32, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom has been notified.[2] --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:32, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Opposing style suggested, not opposing date restoration - please see Wikipedia:Subpages (not an essay). --Gonnym (talk) 13:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Gonnym: this proposed renaming does not affect the existence of the subpages. It merely includes the subpages to ensure that their names remain in conformity without whatever naming convention is adopted. So please will consider striking that !vote? Or at least relabelling it as a "Comment". It really isn't relevant to the decision here.
If you have concerns about the subpages, let's discuss them at Talk:List of MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election, 1832–33. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:42, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, this isn't a comment but a vote opposing this style. The guideline clearly states that Using subpages for permanent content that is meant to be part of the encyclopedia is disallowed, which this does. If you want to change that guideline, go ahead and raise it there, but there is absolutely no reason for a WP:local consensus discussion. --Gonnym (talk) 13:46, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Gonnym: I hear your point about the subpages, which exist only for technical reasons. (I would prefer to explain those reasons elsewhere, simply to avoid cluttering up this discussion). Meanwhile, your oppose here is pointless, because it a) does not remedy the issue to which you object, and b) opposes a change which you say you don't oppose. How does that help anyone? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:55, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not pointless, as you know, you could just fix your mistitled proposal to one that actually complies with Wikipedia's guidelines and not exempt yourself out of it. --Gonnym (talk) 14:39, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Gonnym: Please note that WP:SUBPAGE is a Wikipedia guideline. Like other gudelines, it is not a rigid no-exemptions rule; it has a prominent text box at the top which says it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.

I have posted at Talk:List of MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election, 1832–33#Use_of_subpages to explain why I believe that in that this should be an exception. The use of subpages here is caused by technical limitations, and the common sense approach is to find the least-worst solution to those unusual technical issues.

So instaead of cluttering up this RM with an issue unlated to its main purpose, please may I ask you to continue this discusion at Talk:List of MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election, 1832–33#Use_of_subpages, and return here with whatever conclusions you draw? Thanks. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:12, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move per WP:COMMONNAME whilst noting that the recent consensus at WP:NCGAL may mean that the names will change again before too long. Ralbegen (talk) 13:50, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Timrollpickering 14:40, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I would agree with reverting this move, and thankyou for doing the heavy lifting to demonstrate why it's the correct name. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:16, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(currently) uninvolved comment when I closed the discussion last time, I didnt agree with the request/consensus because of WP:DATERANGE. But the consensus was to move the article. As BrownHairedGirl pointed out correctly, the only argument which was backed by a policy was ironically an oppose. I did weigh it, but it was the a lone vote. Last time (another move discussion), when I closed the discussion based on rational arguments, and policies provided; I was said to biased view/OR, and imposed my own thoughts/view on the close. Hence I closed previous request in discussion the way I did. In the hindsight, I should have relisted the discussion with a comment. Looking back at the discussion (which was from my early/inexperienced days as page mover), makes me feel I should have relisted it. I apologise for my mistake, which lead to the current discussion consuming everybody's time. Sorry again. —usernamekiran(talk) 19:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I can't think of any source that calls it the "1832-33 general election". They all call it the 1832 election, notwithstanding that a tiny proportion of polls were conducted in 1833. Henry Stooks Smith's "The Parliaments of England" published in the 1840s merrily gives 1832 as the date of the election, even for those constituencies which polled in 1833. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Thank you, BHG, for taking the time to accumulate the evidence in support.—Britannicus (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.