Talk:Union Monument in Vanceburg

A fact from Union Monument in Vanceburg appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 May 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Union Monument in Vanceburg, Kentucky, is the only monument south of the Mason–Dixon line that honors Union soldiers that is not in a cemetery?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/May.

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Only One?

Actually MANY BELOW THE M&D Line

The article states it is the only Union monument south of the Mason-Dixon line not in a cemetery. What about the Connecticut Memorial at Grant's Canal in Delta, Louisiana?[1] Yes, it is on Vicksburg National Military Park land, but is nowhere near Vicksburg National Cemetery. — Eoghanacht ^talk 15:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And since the Mason Dixon line only goes as far east as the end of Pennsylvania, it is not really south of it. And if you "extend" the line west then much of Ohio is below it and I am sure there are some monuments to Union dead there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjm4474 (talk • contribs) 16:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And since Maryland is totally south of the Mason Dixon line, (by definition) the article falsely claims there are no monuments to Union soldiers in Maryland -- which is patently false:

http://monumentcity.org/2009/04/14/union-soldiers-sailors-monument-baltimore-md/

Also, the Antietam National Battlefield, South Mountain Battlefield, and in various towns and cities in Maryland, as well as Washington DC, for goodness sake: For instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheridan_Circle General Sheridan was a Union soldier in the US Civil War. There is a statue of him in Sheridan Circle in Washington DC, Washington DC is south of the M/D Line.

Can someone define "public subscription"? It does not have a Wikipedia page. Who organized the collection? This whole things seems made up by someone looking to differentiate some little town in Kentucky. -PJM4474 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjm4474 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted sentence

I deleted the sentence. The claim about the Mason-Dixon line is obviously false and is not supported by the cited authority, which says: "It is one of the few Union monuments in the state, and may be the only Union monument south of the Mason-Dixon line paid for by public subscription and erected in a public place other than a cemetery." (I'm also dubious of the "may be" claim, which comes from a marketing company and cites no support.) The deletion also removed the claim that this is the eastern-most Union monument in Kentucky, which might be true but is not supported by the cited source. John M Baker (talk) 19:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Easternmost was added due to the main article on the KY monuments having a lat. and long. indicator, which showed Vanceburg's as being the most eastern.--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 19:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Someone must have re-added it, because I deleted it also. Are we really to believe that there are no "pro-Union" monuments in Washington DC, for example? Although it may be true, it strikes me as a remarkable claim that requires a strong citation -- much stronger than the one given. cmadler (talk) 19:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've also requested the removal of that item from the Main Page's DYK. cmadler (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What part of the fact it was cited do you not get?--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 23:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The new source is obviously much better than the old one and says: "The only Union monument south of the Mason-Dixon line erected by public subscription except those in cemeteries." But I still have my doubts. Are there any other sources for this strong claim, preferably ones that more clearly are WP:RS? Alternatively, can anyone identity any counterexamples? There's also the question of what is "south of the Maxon-Dixon line." In Kentucky, this is often understood to mean the Ohio River, though obviously the Mason-Dixon line stops before then and, if extended on a straight line, would go through Ohio. John M Baker (talk) 12:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)The new source is definitely better, but there are still some questions. West of the actual survey line, what does it mean to be "south of the Mason-Dixon Line"? Viewed one way, anything south of about 39°43' fits the bill; this would include about half of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, most of Missouri, Kansas, etc. Specifying that it's the only public subscription monument that is not located in a cemetary makes it difficult to disprove, but so far I have found this monument at the courthouse at Clay Center, Kansas, which, at about 39°22', is south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Also, it's worth noting that The Kentucky Encyclopedia merely says, "Located on the courthouse lawn is one of the few Civil War monuments to the Union cause in Kentucky. The monument, built by public subscription, is dedicated to the memory of the 107 Lewis County soldiers who died for the Union." This suggests that even if the statement from the historical society were true, that it may be pretty trivial; if you define a category narrowly enough (public subscription monuments outside cemetaries south of the Mason-Dixon Line dedicated to Union soldiers) you can eventually guarantee an "only" example, but it's not really meaningful. cmadler (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean to belabor the point, but let me put this another way. Someone (local promoters, the state historical society, I don't know) defined a set which consists of the intersection of:

public subscription monuments
monuments outside cemetaries
monuments south of the Mason-Dixon Line (using the M-D Line as shorthand for states allowing slavery immediately prior to the Civil War)
monuments to the Union cause (but not to one individual)

It appears that the only member of this set is this particular monument. My question is: why define such a set? I understand why one would discuss southern monuments to the Union cause, but why the additional limitations of only public subscription monuments and of only monuments outside cemetaries? The only reason that has occurred to me so far is that by including those, you deliberately end up with just this monument, but perhaps someone can offer more legitimate reasons? cmadler (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I'm not too troubled by the presence of the statement in the article, if it can be satisfactorily verified. After all, it's not a whole article about noncemetery Union monuments erected by public subscription in the Old South, it's just a passing reference in one minor article. But I wonder: Are there no monuments of this kind in West Virginia? That's part of the Old South, and you would expect it as a Union state to have some monuments, perhaps even erected by public subscription.

More plausibly, I believe the Vanceburg monument is probably the only Union monument on a courthouse lawn in Kentucky (they pretty much all have Confederate monuments). But we would need better support for this than my vague recollection. John M Baker (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]