Talk:Unicode

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Unicode article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7: 2 years

Typography Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Typography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Typography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TypographyWikipedia:WikiProject TypographyTemplate:WikiProject TypographyTypography
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

Languages Low‑importance

	Language portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Computing High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Computing, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of computers, computing, and information technology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ComputingWikipedia:WikiProject ComputingTemplate:WikiProject ComputingComputing
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Globalization

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Globalization, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Globalization on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.GlobalizationWikipedia:WikiProject GlobalizationTemplate:WikiProject GlobalizationGlobalization
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Unicode was copied or moved into incubator:Wp/nod/ᩀᩪᨶᩥᨣᩰ᩠ᨯ with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Inline mentioning

I object to the reversal by Peter M. Brown, citing WP:ITALICTITLE inappropriately. I'd say that the name, a noun, should not be in italics.

ITALICTITLE referst to the name of a work, ie the work itself (play, periodic, book). However, the Unicode standard is a standard, not a book &tc. not even it's publication. The Standard is abstraction: the set of rules. It is a proper noun full stop. Key is, the article title notes the subject: the standard not the book. DePiep (talk) 17:04, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter M. Brown: -DePiep (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why no section about missing graphemes?

I don't know if it would be manageable, but Unicode clearly does not have all commonly used symbols. A simple example is the very commonly used 'slash marks' used to count. Most reading this will be familiar with the sequence /, //, ///, ////, and ~~////~~ with the crossmark (strike-through) diagonal (top left to bottom right) rather than horizontal. (This is typical in the USA, I understand European convention is slightly different). I request the editors to consider the addition of a list of missing (but documented) symbols.40.142.183.146 (talk) 11:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unicode's non-inclusion of tally marks is covered in Tally marks § Unicode. I don't think it's a good idea to include it also in this article. That would open the door of listing every proposal that has not yet been accepted. Indefatigable (talk) 15:42, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also oppose this idea. The set of unencoded symbols is open-ended and may exceed the number of encoded symbols. There would also be no way to determine which unencoded symbols merit mention. DRMcCreedy (talk) 16:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new writing systems to be encoded into Unicode 16

Unicode 16 is set to release in September 2024. I think the following (con)scripts definitely need to be encoded:

Chữ Việt Trí - an alphabet invented by Tôn Thất Chương in 2012 for Vietnamese language. It's still nicer than Latin-based Quoc Ngu and needs wide recognition as the Shavian and Hangul did.
Add support for Quikscript.
Add extra missing runes from Baconsthrope and Sedgeford and Armanen runes
Possibly add something more.

94.180.80.9 (talk) 07:31, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at Unicode's FAQ for Submitting Successful Character and Script Proposals. Wikipedia isn't affiliated with The Unicode Consortium so requests here won't be seen or acted upon by the people who can actually add characters/scripts to the Unicode Standard. DRMcCreedy (talk) 14:39, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Combining macron and acute in text referencing them separately

@Spitzak: In the text for example, ḗ (precomposed e with macron and acute above) and ḗ (e followed by the combining macron above and combining acute above) should be rendered identically, the "e" is followed by two distinct combining characters, but they are rendered at a single location. I inserted a space to cause them to display as two separate characters, and Spitzak reverted the change with the comment They are supposed to be combined. In context, I don't understand how it makes sense to combine them, since the text refers to them individually. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My reading of that sentence is that it's comparing the rendering of the precomposed character with the combining characters so you can see how the two render pretty much side by side. That reading prohibits a space between the combining characters. I suppose you should show the combining characters separated then together if you really want to show the components separately. Something like this, with my additions in green: "For example, ḗ (precomposed e with macron and acute above) and ḗ (e followed by the combining macron above and combining acute above) should be rendered identically, both appearing as an e with a macron (◌̄) and acute accent (◌́), but in practice, their appearance may vary depending upon what rendering engine and fonts are being used to display the characters."'DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:01, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That reading is correct, but I don't agree with the inference; I would agree that it prohibits rendering a space between the two combining characters, but the does not mean that it prohibits a space in the markup that causes the characters to be rendered adjacent to each other with no intervening space. The text "ḗ" renders as ḗ, with the ̄ and ̋ overlaid, while the text "ē ́" renders as ē ́ , with no overlay and no intervening space.

Your suggested text should be acceptable. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I've made the updates. DRMcCreedy (talk) 14:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I read it too quickly; that still has the original issue unless you remove the "ḗ" and remove the parentheses from the parenthetical note, i.e.,for example, ḗ (precomposed e with macron and acute above) and e followed by the combining macron above and combining acute above should be rendered identically,. Alternatively,for example, ḗ (precomposed e with macron and acute above) and eōó (e followed by the combining macron above and combining acute above) should be rendered identically,. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:25, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But that wouldn't allow the reader to see if the two equivalent versions (precomposed and combining) render the same on whatever device they're using. I think that's the point of having both the precomposed and combining in the example in the first place. DRMcCreedy (talk) 20:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome, I want the Kurdistan flag on my keyboard

Welcome, I want the Kurdistan flag on my keyboard 85.94.240.91 (talk) 23:28, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the flag of Kurdistan is not presently encoded in Unicode. Remsense聊 23:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nor will it be added per Unicode's proposal guidelines for flags DRMcCreedy (talk) 00:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Slightly odd hatnote

@Spitzak, I'm also really not sure what you're talking about exactly—Microsoft seems to have the definition of "Unicode" in line with that of the rest of the world.[1] If they use "Unicode" as a shorthand for "UTF-16" sometimes (the way many people use it as a shorthand for "UTF-8", then the page I just linked seems to do any theoretical disambiguation work, and doesn't really leave us wondering whether they're somehow creating an ambiguity problem for us to solve. Remsense诉 02:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I give up on this, but it is because I was looking at a function called isTextUnicode which returns false for UTF-8. There are a number of other examples where "Unicode" means the 16-bit interface.Spitzak (talk) 06:19, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are two separate issues:

Do we have to deal with this?: I believe that we do need to mention the limitations of Unicode support in windows.
Is a hatnote the best way to deal with it?: I believe that the hatnote is inappropriate and that the text should mention the limitation, probably not in the lead.

Perhaps Unicode#Operating systems could say In Microsoft windows, the Unicode support is limited to UTF-16. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except it isn't really limited to UTF-16, especially in modern versions. The problem is they use "Unicode" all over the place to mean "16-bit encoding" and do differentiate it from "8-bit encoding". This explicitly excludes every form of Unicode other than UTF-16 and UCS-2 (it also thus includes other 16-bit encodings that are not Unicode, but this is probably not a big deal).Spitzak (talk) 17:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you work up text that concisely but accurately describes the m$ nomenclature and support for Unicode and the preferred role of UTF-16? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. Remsense诉 01:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Codespace and code points

In the Codespace and code points section, it refers to "the interval $[0,17\times 2^{16})$ ". I had to read it several times to figure out what was meant. I originally parsed "0,17" as a European-format decimal number, which made no sense. Eventually I figured what was meant, but it wasn't at all obvious. There is nothing in the referenced Unicode 15 standard which uses that terminology, either. The use of mis-matched bracket and paren is a math construct which makes sense for real intervals, but is less commonly used in integer contexts. It will simply appear wrong to readers without a real analysis background.

May I suggest this might be more understandable replaced with "the range 0 : 1114111"? The origin of the latter number is available later in the sentence (with the hexadecimal number 0x10FFFF). Alternatively, a less obscure notation might be $[0,(2^{20}+2^{16}-1)]$ . Tarl N. (discuss) 22:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I was the one who originally added this. Please do replace it with something more straightforward. Remsense诉 23:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, using prose: in the range from 0 to 1114111,... Tarl N. (discuss) 08:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

308 characters not mentioned

The only detail for Unicode 1.0.1 is about 20902 CJK Unified Ideographs added, but in total 21204 characters were added and 6 were removed. In total, 308 characters were not mentioned at all. Did I miss something while reading the page? What happened to those characters? Can somebody at least explain to me? Apologies in advance if I wasted your time. Mucksrunt (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Unicode 1.0.1 changes were messy. They brought Unicode into alignment with ISO 10646 and happened prior to the stability policies in place today. I don't come up with 308 characters but looking through the infoboxes for the various Unicode blocks (which I beleive are accurate), I find these changes with Unicode version 1.0.1:

Alphabetic Presentation Forms (+1)
CJK Compatibility Ideographs (+302)
CJK Symbols and Punctuation (+0)
CJK Unified Ideographs (+20,902)
Combining Diacritical Marks (+2)
Cyrillic (-4)
Enclosed CJK Letters and Months (-1)
Greek and Coptic (-9)
Hebrew (-1)
Lao (-5)
Miscellaneous Technical (-2)
Thai (-5)
Additionally, the range for Private Use Areas was expanded by 768 code points. DRMcCreedy (talk)

Input requested on Unicode block template redesign

Hey! On a lark, I decided to try a minor redesign of the Unicode block templates while fixing the pressing issue of dark mode support—see Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Unicode block template and tell me any thoughts you have, as I think it's probably worthwhile to at least refresh these templates. Remsense ‥ 论 15:44, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have two concerns on your proposed redesign: First, the link to the Unicode PDF chart is no longer obvious to the reader as it's now a reference as opposed to being clear in the chart heading. Easy access to the PDF is especially important for not widely supported code ranges. Second, consolidating the notes onto a single line is OK for most of the cases but will be harder to understand for charts with longer notes like Template:Unicode chart Hangul Jamo. DRMcCreedy (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moving to a reference wasn't my idea directly, as I can see it either way. Per your second point, I would actually handle this by adding additional lines for those extra notes. Remsense ‥ 论 17:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmccreedy I think I've finished iterating on the design for now in response to feedback here and at the Village Pump—I'm still not totally sure how/whether to display the default footnote and the PDF code chart reference, but other than that I think it's just about ready to consider deploying. Any further thoughts? Remsense ‥ 论 05:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]