Talk:Ulster people

Ulster Scots entry

The entry is included per Ian Adamson, The Ulster People: Ancient, Medieval and Modern, (Bangor: Pretani Press 1991) ISBN 0-948868-13-9, by way of Olchug's statement Check this source. There 'Ulster People' means 'Ulster Scots people'. Unless you can make a case that Olchug was mistaken, that is sufficient for inclusion, @Mutt Lunker:. Paradoctor (talk) 01:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

If we are to include the fringe and uncommon usage of a term by a solitary individual, the dab pages will be overflowing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 02:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

fringe and uncommon Kindly WP:PROVEIT. Paradoctor (talk) 02:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

This isn't a quote from the source anyway, it's Olchug's assertion as to its meaning. There is no obligation upon us to accept that, unsupported. With their highly confused editing of 1700-1900 yesterday, I certainly wouldn't. It's for them to prove their case, not us to disprove it. Mutt Lunker (talk) 02:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I clearly attributed the statement to Olchug.

"unsupported" He provided the source for his claim. Assuming editors who disagree with you are incompetent is not in line with WP:AGF. You say he's wrong, show it.

@Olchug:, since you have access, maybe you could provide a quote?

More to the point, using a holonym in place of the fully qualified term is a standard maneuver in communication. There is no prima facie reason to believe that Adamson is the only one who did that. Paradoctor (talk) 02:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I was reading the III part. Here are several quotes:

1. An earlier emigrant to America was Francis Mackemie, born of Scottish parents near Ramelton, County Donegal. He settled in Eastern Virginia, and in 1706 was one of the most prominent members of the first Presbytery founded in America. Mackemie is justly considered to be the founding father of the Presbyterian Church in America, which was well organised to receive the new Ulster immigrants. Soon Ulster people were settling in New York State, where they founded the Orange and Ulster counties.

2. There are many modern Americans who still take pride in their descent from Ulster-Irish families, though they often know little of Ulster itself. Not many of them are now Presbyterians, for most became Methodists and Baptists according to conscience. This was due to old-time preachers whose traditions also lived on in America’s Black community to be personified by Martin Luther King. Yet, until recently, very little about the Ulster contribution to America was taught in our schools and universities. As Harold R. Alexander has written: “The migration of the Ulster people was a diaspora similar to that of the Jews. North America provided ample scope for the national character and soaring vision of men of Ulster origin… It is sad that almost nothing of this is known in Ulster today. English ascendancy and Irish chauvinism have combined to suppress knowledge of Ulster and Ulster-American history, to deny the very concept of the Ulster nation at home or overseas, and to deprive Ulstermen of legitimate pride in their heritage and national identity.” James G. Leyburn’s estimation of Scotch-Irish influence on the formation of the early United States includes the following assessment: “Weber’s idea of the Protestant ethic and Tawney’s of the connection between Protestantism and the rise of capitalism do not find their most convincing example in the Scotch-Irish; nevertheless, like other Calvinists, they believed in self-reliance, improving their own condition in life, thrift and hard work, the taking of calculated risks. They believed that God would prosper His elect if they, in turn, deserved this material reward by their conscientious effort. Farmers though they generally were, neither they nor their ancestors had been peasants in the sense of blind traditionalism of outlook. Their optimistic self-reliance, with a conviction that God helps those who help themselves, was to become the congenial American folk philosophy of the next century, not far removed from materialism and a faith in progress.

I still think that Ulster Scots entry should be included in this disambiguation page. --Olchug (talk) 08:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

These quotes only tell me that the "Ulster people" were immigrants from Ulster. How does that translate to "Ulster Scots people"? Surely the immigrants were not exclusively of Scottish ancestry? Paradoctor (talk) 09:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

But Ian Adamson talks here only about Ulster Scots, as far as I can see. Thus I think it's better to include. But if other users are against, then I do not insist on inclusion of this entry. Olchug (talk) 09:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

You may see it, but where does he say it? It is not apparent to me. A gentle reminder, from WP:CHALLENGE: an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[2] the contribution. The important bit here is "directly". I cannot read your claim off the quotes you provided. If you can't come up with such a citation, then we don't have enough to justify inclusiom. Paradoctor (talk) 10:22, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

If we now agree that The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, not those who challenge said material, are we resolved that the inclusion of Ulster Scots people on the page is not, after all, supported?

I'll note the creative characteristation of my reference to confused edits would not itself seem to sit well with AGF. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:20, 9 March 2022 (UTC)