Talk:Uechi-ryū/Archive 1

Archive 1

Weaponry in Uechi

JJL, 28 November 2005: I don't think that Uechi-ryu places much emphasis on defense against weapons. Like most karate styles, it's principally, though not exclusively, for one-on-one empty-handed defense. I've tried to add compromise language here, however.

ZN, 04 April 2006: I somewhat disagree. Uechi Ryu places emphasis on controling your opponent, regardless if they have a weapon. The horse-stance elbow strikes in moant kata may be applied that way as can many of the block strikes. If an individual practitioner chooses to ingnore these area it should not be said to be a deficiency of the style but of the practitioner. Uechi Ryu puts emphasis on controlling the opponent entirely.

--Justin L. 17:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC): I also have to disagree. The end of seisan is meant to avoid a sword swipe and attack at the wielder. And the close blocks in konchiwa could be interpreted as blocks against overhead strikes.

After ten years probably no one cares, but the end of Seisan is not meant to avoid a sword swipe. This was a meaning made up on the fly when George Mattson was asked during his shōdan to come up with applications to movements from the kata. However, it was originally interpreted as against a bō but, seriously, many dōjō had lower ceilings. Tomoyose, who studied with Kanei Uechi and periodically with Kanbun Uechi, explains that Kanbun Uechi tried out many different applications for movements in kata--"Some work well, some not work well!" to give a personal communication. The point of all of that is not to obsess over singular meanings to movements in kata. However, it is a weaponless system. One should not look at that as a deficiency.TheDoctorX (talk) 10:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

It might not originally have been meant to be that, but that is now in Seisan Bunkai as taught by the OkiKuKai.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:57, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Well . . . yes and no. This involves personal communication which, with $2 buys you a cup of coffee, but the bunkai interpretation from Okikukai is simply for standard testing purposes. It is not meant to be THE interpretation of the move or the ONLY interpretation.TheDoctorX (talk) 09:03, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I didn't mean that the OkiKuKai version is the only valid interpretation. Rather, I meant that the bo version is also not the only valid interpretation, but that both are equally valid interpretations within different organizations.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:23, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Ikkyu seeking refresher on moves for kanshiwa up to seichin

You should probbaly try a web board, like the fora at www.uechi-ryu.com, or www.e-budo.com, or www.martialtalk.com. JJL 22:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Found 'em all at the U.Virginia uechi club's site, which was on the page; managed to work out seisan on my own, gonna sit down to rememorize Kansu tonight....thx anyway.Skookum1 04:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Mantis and Cobra

Style animals are not restricted to the Tiger, Dragon and Crane. The big '3' is from older information; this article should reflect that. Uechi-ryu 08:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that there is significant Mantis influence, and Cobra is not usually considered a Chinese animal (more Burman, say). What techniques are Mantis or Cobra? I also disagree on the kata names. JJL 06:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

The Mantis is the Sanchin position with palms facing up, it's in every form and very influential to the system. The Cobra is the final striking blow in Sansairyu. Commonly (and incorrectly) called the 'crane' technique (removes the lethal nature of the move by name alone!). Uechi-ryu 11:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I have know from a little child that the ending strike in sanseiryu is called the crane's beak strike and recently learned that in Japanese it is called the kakushiken, but it seems like a crane's beak striking downward in an attack to me and is the way I have always seen the seniors practice it. (MHK II)

I agree with the recent revision which removes these references. I do not believe that these are mantis and cobra techniques in origin, even if they do resemble such techniques. JJL 20:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I was told that the Sanchin hand position is "crane" in origin. From what I've seen of Mantis, it's palms down - and fingers down, deceptively limp-wristed. Why User:Uechi-ryu thinks that a crane move cannot be lethal doesn't seem to understand crane, or ever met one up close (I have). Kill? Oh yeah, a crane can kill, and it's 5000 times larger than a praying mantis. Just ask Bodhidharma about it if you can channel him.Skookum1 17:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I always thought the crane-strike sanchin position looked Egyptian anyway. Maybe it's "crocodile"?Skookum1 17:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

huh? The current (and accurate) history coming out of Okinawa clearly points out this information..read Kanai Uechi's book...he says this himself! What you believe is not the issue here; accuracy to this article is what is important. The choice is yours to keep editing my corrections....but I am not sure why the article is continually reverted to a less-than-accurate version. There is information here :http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=11267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=eb1d6114e6d8ed25be2c783d34936e22 which helps confirm that Mantis is part of Uechi-ryu. Uechi-ryu 03:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

If you really want I'll call up Jim Maloney and get his opinion on the subject. But I'm sure he'll want to deliver his opinion in person.....17:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The page mentions Chow Gar (Southern mantis). That is based on Dragon and some Crane, not Mantis; see its page here. JJL 17:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Users; trying to have a logical debate here, with information that supports the modern insight into the systems history. Sarcasm (not to mention errors) and idle threats (Maloney? I'll take Kanai Uechi's version first)? What was that all about? Actually, I will let this go; it's certainly not worth the effort to be constantly bothered by this. FYI, the wrist strikes in Seichin are strict Mantis. Hopefully the accurate versions of Uechi-ryu will be explained to you, its quite interesting. Have fun with this article.

My apologies; the risk with text-only conversations is that intonation is lost; my comments were meant lightly, not as any kind of threat or serious sarcasm. I'm a hard-assed editor in other areas of Wikipedia where I have expertise, and my tone perhaps carries over. I'd never, for one thing, make a real threat invoking Sensei Maloney unless I knew he'd back it up; in which case he'd be making it himself, of course.

And I forget myself as a lowly ikkyu, and haven't been up on Uechi history in recent times, and certainly haven't seen the book you're referring to. To me, following up on the other editor's edits, which I was only reinforcing, the Mantis and Cobra references just sounded trendy - I live in a city with umpteen million flavours of martial arts (Vancouver) and lots of trends come and go; Chow Gar I remember as hands DOWN, but pointed in a similar fashion; and when the White Crane guy from Fujian came to Buzzard's Bay one summer ('96?) his forms had hand positions similar to Uechi Sanchin, not Chow Gar. Ultimately all martial arts can be traced back and into each other, in my unknowledgeable opinion, with a mix-and-match flavour that varies from school to school, even within Uechi-dom. Sensei Campbell no doubt, for instance, knows his Chow Gar independently of Uechi stylistics, i.e. in its own right; and while his own personal style must mix the two the long tradition, still doctrine in the 1990s, was that Uechi was Tiger-Dragon-Crane and that was it; so I was going on what I was taught; or rather had drilled into me (at peril of more pushups than I might want to do...and that was getting off easy).

I'm studying by myself now and while the historicities are interesting I'm doing the sanchin-solo thing, with what other kata and drills I can remember; the theory is not so interesting to me as the experience of actually practicing Uechi forms/warmups again; and rather than pick the style apart I'm more concerned with trying to get it to work for my own body (I'm 6'5", 255 lbs and 50 yrs old); finding what works, what feels good. Maybe it's because I'm overexposed to Asian culture here in Vancouver I'm less fascinated by its intracies and various schools of training, painting or whatever; the art is in the doing for me, not the book-studying; as someone just working with the forms as forms I find myself less concerned with any historical mystique or lineage and more with the actual doing of the craft. But what do I know? I'm just doing my forms.....

So again, my apologies; I spoke out of turn and too flippantly; but not in bitterness or contempt.....Skookum1 07:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Some Uechi folks can be very sensitive about comments made on the style, and will make childish threats to those who ask the wrong questions or form the "wrong" conclusions based on honest observations..

This lack of verifiable information is due to the fact that little or no first hand information exists to support facts on the subject or content of the style, save what individuals will assert, based on their observations, hearsay or what they make up themselves.

The style is said to have some from Pangainoon which is a non-existant style of kung-fu, of which there is not one shred of evidence to support that it ever even existed.

Mantis is not one single style, there are several Mantis systems. The one that actually emulates the Mantis itself in movement is Northern Mantis and is not the system thought to have similar movements in Uechi. The Cobra vs Crane is best left to both animals to decide, both Crane and Cobra are deadly in animal form or systemn form. 206.148.28.6 08:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)(NOB)

It would not entirely be appropriate to use Kanai Uechi's book as a source for this considering the break in the style. It might just be better to leave it out completely.

Kata meanings

The kata meanings were incorrect; the out of date idea was that they simply meant a series of numbers (which don't add up in the kata) or that they only represent combinations of names. Uechi-ryu 08:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the kata names for kanshiwa and kanshu do only represent the combination of names. The others are more involved, and I will edit this soon to show the meanings determined by Okikukai.

Bakarocket 18:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Have edited to reflect the correct meanings based upon the Kanji. Bakarocket 15:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Master rankings

The list showed the instructor rankings associated with a specific belt rank; this is not so....the rankings and the instructor levels are not linked. Uechi-ryu 08:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they are in most organizations. The IUKF changed this for certain political reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.66.33 (talk) 00:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Shohei-ryu & Uechi-ryu

Shohei-ryu is a completely different system, different Kata (No Uechi kata). Uechi-ryu 08:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

My sources say otherwise. I believe that Shohei uses the same kata. JJL 15:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Here in Okinawa Shoei-ryu is a direct decendent of Uechi-Ryu. They have incorperated some changes and a couple additional kata, but the techniques and the Uechi-Ryu Kata are exactly the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.120.236.6 (talk) 07:07, 13 October 2006‎ (UTC)

Shohei-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu are no different styles. Even within the same organization high level masters present differences in their technique, either because of personal approach, perception of the technique or body particularities. This doesn't mean it is a different style. During the late 80's there was a big conflict. Uechi Kanmei and his mother turned against Kanei Sensei's older students, while Kanei Sensei was still alive but very sick and bedridden. Kanmei Uechi took over Soke position and forbidden all practitioners who don't wish to follow his organization to use the "Uechi" name and/or the kanji. A vast number of the practitioners at that time joined Okikukai. Shinjo Sensei expressed his will to stay independent with his own organization (Kenyukai). This rumor about Shohei-Ryu being not Uechi-Ryu is usually spread by a Latin American Uechi-Ryu Sensei and former Okikukai member, for his own reasons. Needless to say this is definitely an unaccepted behavior in Japan and Okinawa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.210.174.19 (talk) 17:00, 10 January 2016‎ (UTC)

And as of September, 2016 its parent organization has decided to drop the name and return to the name "Uechi-Ryū." TheDoctorX (talk) 03:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Uechi Ryū vs. Uechi Ryu

I believe that the form Uechi ryu or Uechi-ryu is much more appropriate than Uechi Ryū for the name of this article. This is the English version, and u would be more reasonable than ū. I suggest changing it back. JJL 03:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the Ryū form is the correct romanization of the 流　kanji. Maybe it should go back, but underneath the main title should be the correct spelling. (e.g. The Tokyo wiki entry) Bakarocket 18:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to chime in late, but please see the MOS rules on the subject of Japanese article naming conventions. I would argue that this article title should remain as is. -Sarfa (talk) 05:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of "traditional" or "traditionalist"

I just edited the parenthetical comment on shomen hajiki, from:

NB: some tradtitionalists consider this to be a throat attack

to:

NB: some consider this to be a throat attack

since I am aware of some master level (e.g. 8th dan) practitioners who will say that this was "originally" a very relaxed eye-strike, unlike the forceful tight-hand eye-strike that is often practiced. Most of the hojo undo and kata moves in Uechi Ryu are open to interpretation. I don't believe this is the forum to argue about what is a more "traditional" interpretation of a kata or hojo undo exercise, though. It should suffice to give some of the more common interpretations, without making claims about what is more or less "traditional". I believe such claims are more likely to rankle certain Uechi Ryu students than to inform the general audience for the article. Kblakes 15:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Sensei Gushi told me that Kanbun Uechi did not standardize many of the hojo undo techniques, and therefore many of the students under him practiced certain techniques their own way. As the style has splintered over time those original students handed down how they did those techniques to their own students and therefore many associations have distinct ways of doing certain moves. He also told me that all three of the last techniques in hojo undo (shomen hajiki and both wrist blocking movements) were considered finger flicking movements. Furthermore, in the past I asked a Japanese friend of mine who does practice karate-do what "hajiki" meant and she flicked my arm with her finger and said it was a motion like that "ping". This statement is only intended to provide context for the previous post, in that maybe the names of techniques should only be stated in a wikipedia Uechi Ryu article and not expanded on. 73.217.52.67 (talk) 02:05, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Uechi Ryu Sources

[This discussion began after I added a sentence to the main article about Uechi Ryu's Kenyukai group. I'm moving the discussion as it exists now to a new "sources" section of the Talk page. Kblakes 15:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)]

That sounds good, but who is Alan Dollar and why should we care about him? (I mean that if he is going to be included, there better be more references to him than his own website and his own book.)Bakarocket 10:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If you are interested, you can find references to Master Allan Dollar on web pages by his students and colleagues. E.g.: [1], or [2]. Also, if you look at Master Dollar's book, you can see blurbs on it from well-known Uechi Ryu practitioners. He is a good source., especially for the Uechi Ryu branch that followed Seiyu Shinjo and is now widely known as the Kenyukai. The integrity of Master Dollar's writings is quite comparable to the integrity of the other well-known American authors who have written books about Uechi Ryu. Kblakes 18:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I'm not personally interested in him, but neither do I doubt his integrity. I'd just like there to be better sources than his own book and website for the information that was just added. According to the verifiability rule, sources are supposed to be "reliable". Saying "he is a good source" isn't enough. Also, "blurbs" he uses in his own book are by definition unreliable. In fact, Cherokee publishing seems to be a "self-publishing" publisher, so the entire book would be invalid. (Correct me if I'm wrong, please. I just did a quick google.)

Regardless, if you can refer to the reliable sources he used for the information in his book, I'd be perfectly happy. With that in mind, we'll have to delete basically everything you added unless you can put up some valid sources. (The above statement about "some traditionalists" was very well made. I mean specifically the addition of Dollar's sensei's dojo stuff. Prove that it is prominent.)

(For that matter, ALL of the sources used in this article have to be cleaned up. It's kind of a joke. We've got 7 websites and two vanity books, and at least 4 of the websites are directly connected to one or the other of the two vanity book authors.)

Bakarocket 11:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand the concerns about sourcing for this article. One major cause of the sourcing problems must be that, well, Uechi Ryu is a fairly small community, and not only that: it's highly factionalized. The section in Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate" is only 5 pages, out of 176, and it discusses only 2 of the factions. I will work on citing better sources for my information. My main source is the oral tradition of my Kenyukai dojo and the larger Kenyukai community. I felt that the fact that Master Shinjo has students world-wide and the fact that he won the Okinawa Uechi Ryu tournament 9 times straight was enough to legitimize the use of "prominent" in describing his dojo, but I may very well be showing my bias as a Kenyukai student. Most of my non-"vanity" sources are film. For example, a Discovery Channel special, and an Okinawan documentary about Uechi Ryu, Gojo Ryu and Shorin Ryu. What is the policy on citing documentary film as a source? I do also have some magazine sources I will have to track down. For example, a very recent article in "Okinawa Today" (or something like that). I'll track it down. Thank you for pushing this point about sourcing, Bakarocket. I believe it will make the article much stronger in the long run (kind of like kote kitae, which, by the way, I'm surprised is not discused in the article). Kblakes 15:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I actually edited my post a couple of times because I realised it sounded like I was attacking you, and that's not what I wanted to do.

I agree that most of the sources we will have for Uechi will be a bit flaky because of the size of the community, and I actually don't have a big problem with that. We really have to find some neutral sources, but it's not a "let's redo this completely" offence. My problem is that Kiyohide Shinjo is highlighted in the section on Uechi Today, but there is nothing on the Mattsons, nothing on Shimobukuro in Europe, and nothing on the various independant teachers who ignored the split after Kanei's death. This shows a very clear bias towards one teacher in an anarchic art that is packed with different teachers teaching slightly different things.

In Shinjo's case, his championship trophies and world-wide student placement are not enough to earn his dojo prominence, I think. Above him should be Mattson, who basically introduced the style to 400 million potential students, and Shimobukuro, who is one of the European Uechi Grand Poobas (in terms of number of dojos and students.)

Maybe a good compromise would be to put in EVERYONE we can find, and let the reader choose for himself who is prominent and who is not, and base it purely on the data we gather about each teacher. More specifically, we could add a separate subheading on the different "sects" of Uechi, under the Uechi Today main heading. So, the main entry would say what it says now minus the part about Kanmei and Shinjo (refering only to the split in the style) and then underneath that we can put all of the different organizations that exist. It would take a while, but we could note that it is a work in progress and invite new additions.

I think in the case of documentary film, it would be best to cite it by name, airdate, and production number, and then see if anyone complains. Film is just a little bit harder to verify than print, but in my mind it would suit the purpose of being a good citation. (Especially from a broadcaster like Discovery which is widely accepted as neutral.)

Bakarocket 03:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm still working on tracking down the sources I mentioned (recalling loaners of medi to some friends). I like Bakarocket's suggestion of somehow providing a good amount of detail in this article about what all the different factions are. I personally included info about Kenyukai only because I am privy to it. The point that it throws things out of balance is a good one. Master Mattson is mentioned in the "Early History" section, but it would be good to give more information about his legacy in the proposed section about current state of the divisions. I personally am intriged by the idea that different groups have different parts of the mysteries of Uechi Ryu to teach. I harbor no ill will nor disrespect for any one of the "sects" of Uechi Ryu. I would love to have the Wikipedia Uechi Ryu article be a place that accurately catalogues the various "sects", in the manner Bakarocket describes. Kblakes 20:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice work on the sources, Kblakes. Bakarocket 15:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Article Promotion

I gave the article a Start class but it is already borderline B. A couple of pictures would tip it over the edge.Peter Rehse 07:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It's in need of a serious editing and a consistent style. JJL 02:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Adding photographs

I've been thinking about what photos would be good to use. I think any reasonably good quality photo of Kanei Uechi in a characteristic Uechi Ryu stance would be great. Does anyone have access to digital versions of such photos and good knowledge about where such photos stand in terms of usability? Or which image copyright tag should be used? It would also be good to have photos showing kote kotai, or kyu kumite, associated with the right sections. Kblakes 20:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

My teacher has got some negatives of Kanei and others from when he first started that we might be able to have scanned. I'll ask him about them.Bakarocket 11:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hojo Undo

I take this style of karate and the hojo undo is screwed up, it should be: Sokuto Geri (Side Snap Kick) Shomen Geri (Front Kick) Mawashi Tsuki (Hook Punch) Shomen/Seiken Tsuki (Reverse Punch) Shuto Uchi-Ura Uchi-Shoken Tsuki (Chop-Backfist-One Knuckle Punch) Hajiki Uke-Hiraken Tsuki (Tiger Paw Strikes) Hiji Tsuki (Elbow Strikes) Tenshin Zensoko Geri (Turn-Block-Front Kick-Forward Leg) Tenshin Kosoko Geri (Turn-Block-Front Kick-Back Leg) Tenshin Shoken Tsuki (Turn-Block-One Knuckle Punch) Shomen Hajiki (Finger Tip Strikes) Koi No Shippo Uchi-Tate Uchi (Fishtail Stikes up and down) Koi No Shippo Uchi-Yoko Uchi (Fishtail Strikes side to side) Please respond before i change anything, Thank you very much [Gravediggerfuneral]

I believe all the japanese names of the hojo undo currently on the page are correct. I have seen variations of the japanese name for Chop-Backfist-One Knuckle Punch. If you would like to list one or more variants of the japanese name for it -- e.g., "wauke shuto uraken shoken tsuki could also be shuto uchi-ura uchi-shoken tsuki", that sounds good, but I wouldn't just edit it outright. Your English translation of "Koi No Shippo Uchi-Tate Uchi" isn't quite right -- it is "Fishtail blocks in each direction" i.e., in four directions, not just up and down. I like your translations of the Tenshin techniques better than what's already there. Just today someone editied the translation of "Mawashi Tsuki" (a.k.a. "Furi Tsuki", I believe) to "Hook Punch" instead of the more descriptive "roundouse four-knuckle-fist punches" that was there. Also, "Sokuto geri (knife-edge kick)" was editied to "Sokuto geri (Side Snap Kick)", which is not as accurate a translation: "Sokuto" means "knife-edge". Also "Seiken tsuki (full-fist punch)" was edited to "Seiken tsuki (Reverse Punch)", which is not as accurate a translation: "Seikin" means "full-fist". Much of this should be reverted. Kblakes 01:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to argue in any way this data is not supposed to be an EXACT translation it is more a basic name for the move ,this data has been passed to my sensei (5th degree) from his sensei (6th degree) from Sensei Nakahodo (10th degree president of Okinawan Karate-Do Association, and student od Kanei Uechi himself. This is extremly accurate.As well Wauke shuto uraken shoken tsuki is incorrect, a wauke is a circle block followed by a strike to the collar bone and the solar plexus.Please write back and let me know if this helps at all. thank you [Gravediggerfuenral]

And I speak Japanese fluently, gravedigger, I live in Japan, and my teacher is a 9th dan Hanshi. We don't need to be quoting lineage, because frankly none of us can prove it on the internet. My translation might be a bit better than one that has passed through 3 people to reach you, however, considering my fluency in the language. Kblakes, the shippo uchi, tate uchi literally means out and in, up and in. But four directions would be fine with me. Bakarocket 11:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Bakarocket for clearing this up,one other thing I think should be added, is Geri Wasi (Kick Techniques)(not part of Hojo Undo) i think they are as followed: Shomen Geri (Front Kick), Fumi Komi (Side Stomping Kick or Side Kick to the knee), Yoko Geri (Side Kick [to the Ribs]), Ushiro Geri (Back Kick), Mawashi Geri (Roundhouse Kick). Please let me know if this should be added before i do anything! gravediggerfuneral

I don't think that everything should be added to be honest. There are a lot of different dojos doing different things, and personally I'd prefer to stick to the basics when describing the style. Anything that is pretty much done by everybody should be included, and everything that is not, should not. Kicking exercises belong to the latter group in my opinion, but it's a free world.

p.s. as an edit to my above comment, it looks like I'm saying that "shippo" means "out". I was lazy with my comment, and see that it looks bad now. The complete translation would be as follows: Koi (type of fish) no (possesive article) shippo (tail) uchi (inwards) tate (stand or upwards) uchi (inwards). Bakarocket 11:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey karateka, I'm curious to know if it's only my school that does Bunkai (seeing that it's not mentioned in the artical) thanks gravediggerfuneral.

I am also surprised that there is no bunkai listed, or if it is I couldn't find it. As far as I know there were two original bunkai added by (although not necessarily created by) Kanei Uechi. The first was for Kanshiwa, which was originally intended for children. The second structured bunkai was for Seisan kata, and was on the black belt test from shodan (1st degree) to yondan (4th degree). According to an interview I saw posted at one time through Seiko Toyama (last living student of Kanbun uechi), Kanbun Uechi did not want a structured bunkai for Sanseiryu developed. Uechi Ryu does practice bunkai, but the bunkai practiced for the other kata are supposed to be a personal development and therefore every dojo and even individual might see a technique differently. I have gathered that the two structured bunkai developed were supposed to provide context for other bunkai to practice. If you check out the black belt testing forms from George Mattsons book on Uechi Ryu at the back, there is no mention of Sanseiryu bunkai I believe. Many modern Uechi Ryu associations such as Kenyukai or Okikukai might include Sanseiryu on testing now, but I do not believe it was originally part of what Kanei Uechi taught as a standard, rather something the students developed for themselves at the dojo. 73.217.52.67 (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect to Seiko Toyama, he was not the "last living student of Kanbun Uechi." Tomoyose Sensei is still alive and well! According to lectures from him, Kanbun Uechi primarily took portions of kata and worked on applications. "Some worked good. Some did not." He would also--according to Tomoyose Sensei--even reverse techniques. Horrors! Actual formal bunkai where set interpretations exist for parts of a kata came much later and, frankly, are seen as merely a guide to training. Sanseiryu bunkai came about after the "split" referred to by others more than two decades ago. It took time to develop, it has changed, and still changes. You will find difference between a book published in Japanese and a subsequent DVD, for example. For Okikukai it is a testing requirement for 4th and 5th dan.

At least some Uechi-ryu varients include Sanseiryu Bunkai. Shohei-ryu officially does. Honestly, George Mattson is not a good authority to reference. He wrote a popular book, but his understanding was limited, and he didn't keep contact with Okinawa to ensure that his teaching accurately matched that of the Okinawan masters.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I would not characterize Mattson so harshly. That reads like a lot of political sniping I have heard over the years. Mattson is simply another reference to be judged like any reference.TheDoctorX (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

You are probably right. There's some partiality on my part I admit due to some comments I've picked up from some of my instructors and elsewhere. I think all of these sources need to be cross-checked with each other, as is being done above.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

No worries! For what it is worth, it is something I heard for years until I first met him--he was practicing the old Dan Kumite. I joke when I have seen him since I always seem to catch "the one day of the year" he puts on his gi :) That being written, that is not an endorsement of everything he says or makes him an unassailable authority on all things Uechi. As for sources . . . we are kind of stuck. A lot of it is hearsay, "stories" remembered and all of that. :( TheDoctorX (talk) 22:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Photographs

I have some photos that I took at a recent tournament that, if no one objects, I will put up on the page in a few days. There are some kata photos and some fighting photos, and I've found a couple of good ones in the mix that show Uechi form. If anyone doesn't want me to put them up, let me know here. --Bakarocket 12:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Ranks

The kyu ranks are listed from most junior to most senior with the Japanese done correctly (as far as I understand it), but the roman numbers increment from 1 to 10 instead of decrementing 10 to 1. On reading this article, I found that confusing. Would it be appropriate to number from from 10 to 1, or to reverse the order of the rankings so the roman numerals match the Japanese numbering? --d0d63 —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC).

When my dad and I did Uechi-ryu back in the late 80s early 90s the kyu ranks changed and each school was different. I think much of it had to do with comparing to other arts that had a bunch of belt colors. When my dad started it went from white to green to brown up to two stripes, and then black belt. So that meant there were only 5 kyus. By the time I started since I was around 8 and it went from white to orange to yellow to green, green brown stripe, brown up to three stripes, effectively adding 4 more kyus. It hurt my dad because they added another degree in brown belt and he never got a black belt and the sensei moved to Florida. In general Uechi-ryu seemed is a much more legit ranking system since they don't give kids black belts. Saxophonemn (talk) 13:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Although some have changed the gold bars on black belts to only denote ranks after 5th dan, there are still many Okinawan karate styles (and people outside Okinawa) that still recognize the gold bars as representing different masters titles instead. I mention this because the article seems to portray that they have universally changed. 73.217.52.67 (talk) 07:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

konanryu

Does anyone have info on how an uechiryu karate group named "konanryu" came about/split from main style/body or organization? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.150.208 (talk) 23:04, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

After Kanbun Uechi died, Seiki Itokazu and Kinjo broke off. Itokazu stayed as Konan Ryu but Kinjo changed it to another name later and they both started their own lineage. I train under Itokazu Seisho, his son and have trained at their family dojo in Okinawa. Itokazu Seisho still teaches Uechi Ryu as Konan Ryu, but he is more famous as the Chief instructor for Matayoshi Kobudo from 2004 - 2014. 73.217.52.67 (talk) 07:21, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

POV

Is this quote from the article really NPOV? Sounds more like qoute from a a novel.

There was applause, then silence. Kanbun was furious, but quiet. He hesitated for just a moment, then, with eyes glaring, he performed his favorite kata Seisan, fast and beautifully, with strength and power

81.227.190.9 (talk) 07:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

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Submission of "Major" association.

All, I am requesting to add my association the Fukken Koryu Bujutsu Kan to this section. As many of the senior techers of the "Uechi" style know me and my credential I don't think it will be an issue. A bit of background, the name of my group was given to me by Ryuko Tomoyose, and he explained that this title was to be the name for this ryu-ha before the actual Uechi name was used. He gave it to me in order for me to honor the memory of my teacher Kanei Uechi. As most of you are aware I lived and trained in Okinawa for 10 years, I trained with Kanei Uechi until his death and then I became a the student of Tsutomu Nakahodo. I was given my teaching credentials directly from Kanei.

With that said, please let me state that this is a group of liked minded individuals that train in tradition Uechi Karate. It is not open to the public, we do not have a web page, nor do we advertise. Most are trained by Okinawan teachers. We do though hold a very mutual respect for each other and do not use titles such as president and alike.

Senior advisors:

Tsutomu Nakahodo Okinawa, 10th dan. Ryuko Tomoyose, Okinawa, 10th dan. Shintoku Takara, Okinawa, 10th dan.

Mark J Brelsford (Rhode Island, 8th dan, trained by Kanei Uechi and Tsutomu Nakahodo) Kenneth Washington (Florida 7th dan, trained by Toshiyuki Itokazu and Shinyu Guski) Steven Brigante (Florida, 5th dan, trained by Kiyohide Shinjo) George Chaplin (Pennsylvania, 5th dan, trained by Kanei Uechi) Jose Texidore (Pennsylvania, 4th dan, trained by Yoshiharu Arakaki and Tsutomu Nakahodo) William Kucinski (Ohio, 2nd dan, trained by Steven Brigante) Katrina Kay, (Ohio, 2nd dan, trained by Steven Brigante)

Finally I would like to point out we do not have any ties to other groups in North America. I have direct contact with my teacher Mr. Nakahodo, as his student, and not the Okinawan group that he now heads. Both Mr. Tomoyose and Mr. Takara are advisors and close personal friends and I am not affiliated with Mr. Takara's group. Any of this information regarding this request may be verified by such senior teachers such as James Thompson, Buzz Durkin, and Nestor Folta within the style, as well as Patrick McCarthy of the Koryu Uchinadi outside this style.

Thank you for the consideration. Mr. M. J. Brelsford

Hi. Can you please provide some reliable sources about what makes your organization major? Such as newspaper articles, or something of that nature? We cannot just take your word for it on this. --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 23:56, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Here is a link to my "old site". It was removed from the public around 2006, as we are now a private group and we do not wish to be involved in politics. Although I am no longer a member of the Okinawa based "Shohei Ryu" group I do continue to maintain very close ties with both Mr. Nakahodo and Mr. Tomoyose. I now hope this will end this matter once and for all. Here is the link http://www.chowdanet.com/uechiorg/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OkinawanUechiMan (talk • contribs) 02:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

We cannot use your site, we have rules against our authors using original research. We need verification through independent coverage by reliable sources. HighInBC 02:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Further reading

I restored George Mattson's first book removed by another person since it is the first book in English on the style. I am not sure why it would be removed. The removal of DVDs from the list makes sense since there are a ton of DVDs/Videos.98.227.140.14 (talk) 23:49, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Should we add ISBN to all the references?98.227.140.14 (talk) 23:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Major Organizations Part-II

Noticed revisions reordering the major organizations. It is very subjective which organization "is more bigger important awesome" than another.

For example, currently, the first organization listed is very small, the third is bigger than the second and the first, but advocates of the fifth could argue their organization is bigger than all of them!

To avoid an edit war and hurt feelings, I have asked a Power That Be to review it and give a suggestion for how to objectively order organizations.TheDoctorX (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Third Opinion

A third opinion has been requested. A third opinion should follow discussion between two editors on a talk page. There is a content dispute, but only one of the editors has engaged in discussion here, so that a volunteer opinion would be a second opinion. I am declining the third opinion request. Discuss with the other editor at this talk page (or at least on the talk page of the other editor). Robert McClenon (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Then we are left with the status where one has offered to open a discussion and the other has ignored discussion while continuing to edit. That is a situation that remains unacceptable and will necessitate a higher appeal. Nevertheless, your refusal suggests that the CURRENT order should remain until and unless another editor enters into a discussion to propose and defend an alternative.TheDoctorX (talk) 03:30, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

And given no further input from you, another independent editor, or even a response from the one who kept changing the order, I can only consider the current order acceptable and will revert edits back to it unless the person editing gives an objective reason for changing it.TheDoctorX) 09:33, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Just list the organizations in alphabetical order.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:03, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

May make more sense to have them by alphabetical order per country. Also, some are not in alphabetical order. Technically, IUKA should come before IUKF though I am sure IUKF fans will argue "we are bigger" but I would like to avoid such subjective squabbles!

I would also put the older organizations before younger organizations if possible. I do not think "International" in English works when the name of the organization was "Uechi-Ryu Kenyukai" then "Kenyukai" when a certain individual tried to prevent others from using "Uechi" on Okinawa but let us see if anyone objects/opines/has a better idea.TheDoctorX (talk) 21:05, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Separated them based on Okinawa and International. Kept it strictly alphabetical and added kanji where confirmed in writing. If I find more attested kanji I will include it. Some may complain alphabetical does not represent relative importance, but is there a better objective ordering? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDoctorX (talk) 08:01, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Copyvio

A large chunk was copied directly form http://www.womenskaratetour.org/History3.htm. There may be more but this was the worst and has been removed.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks!TheDoctorX (talk) 08:22, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal: Shohei-ryu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to accept the merger. TheDoctorX (talk) 19:57, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

---

I propose that Shohei-ryu be merged into Uechi-ryū. Given that the parent major Uechi-ryū organization which changed the name of the style to "Shohei" for various political reasons has now rescinded this decision and will hence forth call the style "Uechi-ryū," the content of the Shohei article is no longer relevant as a separate article. It may be merged into this article.

TheDoctorX (talk) 03:45, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support - per OP. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:06, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Without The result of this discussion was to accept the merger. TheDoctorX (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

---

Merger proposal: Pangai-noon

I propose that Pangai-noon be merged into Uechi-ryū. The style "Pangai-noon" that Kanbun Uechi studied in creating his own style which would be called by his students "Uechi's Style" --Uechi-Ryū no longer exists independently of Uechi-ryū. All extant organizations are either former Uechi-ryū organizations or schools that chose to use the old name, or current Uechi-ryū schools which wish to give homage to the old name. This very point is conceded by both the two sources given for the Pangai Noon article, the first of which consists of an completely unsourced webpage for a school which has numerous errors and has not been updated in three years, and the second of which has not been updated in over ten years and concedes it is, indeed, Uechi-Ryū. Thus, many schools will claim to teach "Uechi-Ryū/Pangai Noon" and even "Shohei-ryū" to reflect that they are all materially the same.

The content of the article is mainly the same as Uechi-ryū and may be easily merged into the parent article.

TheDoctorX User:TheDoctorX (talk) 16:17, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extinct?

Um, I'm currently taking an pangai noon classs,so, for some reason, that seems a tad unlikely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.252.80.248 (talk) 12:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

There are re-created versions via Uechi-ryu. JJL 15:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not extinct. I am a practitioner of the art. While not main stream, it is alive and well! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.138.51 (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My class was is traced back to Heroshi Eto Heno, a student of Kanbun Uechi. Go to davisdojo.com for more info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.117.53 (talk) 13:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding above, that link now goes to a school that has the kanji for Pangai-noon but whose karate program teaches "the ancient Okinawan art of Shotokan Karate Jutsu" which is not "ancient" and is based on Shorin primarily, and is neither Uechi-Ryū nor "Pangai-noon."TheDoctorX (talk) 05:16, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Pangainoon was the term Kanbun Sensei used to describe the type of system system he studied (half hard/soft). What he taught was renamed Uechi-ryu; thus the older word to label the style is the same as the system (Uechi-ryu) he taught. If you are practicing something other than what Kanbun Sensei taught, I would certainly be interested in learning more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uechiryujournal (talk • contribs) 23:12, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Bloodlines and Evolution

The evolution of Pangai-noon is as follows (to the best of my findings): Zhou Zi He (aka ShuuShabu or Shushiwa) -> Uechi Kanbun -> Uechi Kanei (under the instruction of Kanbun and Tomoyose Ryuyu)

Under the direction of Uechi Kanei, the name of the art was changed to Uechi Ryu, against the wishes of Kanei's Father Uechi Kanbun.

There are a few (and only a few) sites that discuss the history of Pangai-noon, and most of them in the context of the evolution of Uechi Ryu. I have been in contact with the owner of pangai-noon.net in order to obtain access to some primary resources before I update the actual article. WhiskeyedJack (talk) 18:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Shohei

I noticed that the Shohei-ryu page was pretty much abandoned and had some negative sounding information so I changed it. I'm a black belt in shoei/uechi-ryu under Jack Summers. If anybody wants to help add useful information to this page please jump in! Eric235u (talk) 18:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think repeating all of Kanbun Uechi's personal history here helps; linking to Uechi-ryu should suffice. More material on Shohei per se would be hlpful. Listing individual dojos probably isn't. JJL (talk) 19:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Uechi is the founder of our style. So talking about him makes sense. 2. You added a dead link and a Uechi-ryu specific link which does not make sense. 3. You have even removed the definition of Shohei! I have changed it back. Please explain. Thanks. Eric235u (talk) 05:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've made some changes to what you wrote. The lengthy quote doesn't flow well. How about a kata list or the like? JJL (talk) 06:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I like your last edit. I'll dig around for more material. Thanks. Eric235u (talk) 15:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm shocked this has been flagged for deletion. Shohei-ryu has a world wide community. The article should be improved, not deleted. Eric235u (talk) 02:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I see you JJL. Thanks for your help! Eric235u (talk) 03:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is worth preserving despite its short length! It's only an AfD discussion at this point, but anything could happen. It surely seems notable to me. JJL (talk) 03:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

(^.^) Eric235u (talk) 23:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

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Name of Style Changed Back to Uechi-Ryū--Now What?

Political Background:

This does not belong in the page since it involves politics without the sources required by Wiki. To put it as neutral as possible, after the death of Kanei Uechi--Kanbun Uechi's son--there was a political split between his family and many of Kanei's senior students, some of who were under teachers who were Kanbun Uechi's original students. This organization--which called itself the "Okinawan Karate-Dō Association" or 沖縄空手道協会 in Japanese--were not allowed to use the name "Uechi." Some decided to create a new name to use for the style: "Shohei-Ryū." Again, this is politics. Some embraced the new name. Many gave lip-service to it. Some hated it. Again, that is all opinions which does not fit Wiki criteria. I include it just for explanation. It is true that Okinawan Karate-Dō Association never issues "dan"--段--"black belt" grade--certificates with the name. They did eventually offer teaching licenses with the name when--seriously--they ran out of the older ones! Again, this is anecdote, word-of-mouth.

Finally, a particular teacher argued for changing elements of the style to make Shohei more different than Uechi. From this we get the additional kata or forms. This was a school based change, not accepted by other schools in the organization even though the organization itself remained politically silent. Again--"anecdote/personal experience/does not constitute a Wiki source!"

Changing the Name Back:

After this teacher passed, the additional kata ceased being practiced, the minor changes were forgotten, and, politically, things changed. For reasons far beyond even this Talk Page, the Okinawan Karate-Dō Association officially dropped the name "Shohei" and will return to "Uechi." The organization's webpage currently has only the Japanese proclamation.

Therefore, technically unless someone creates one with like-minded teachers, there is no official organization of "Shohei-Ryū."

So I give this all as a back ground for people to discuss what to do. There are schools in the United States for example that started calling themselves "Shohei." While they will probably all begin dropping the name as their parent organization has done, who knows?

I leave it for someone else to argue that a separate style still exists, will exist, and the page should not be dropped entirely. Please do.

Additional Kata:

There was only one "official"--as in "Okinawan Karate-Dō Association Sanctioned"--additional kata for the style. This was developed by the teacher I anonymously referenced to try to keep this as non-political as possible. It was never allowed to be a "kata" for testing for grade and, obviously, will not unless a bunch of schools come together and create their own rules.

TheDoctorX (talk) 21:50, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Stripes? Stripes? We Don't Need No Stinking STRIPES!: Gold Stripes on Black Belts

Introduction:

I can and will in two weeks provide the page reference to the original Uechi-Ryū Karate Association voting on their organization. It is reprinted in George Mattson's second book. In it, they decide to use the three stripes to designate the master rankings. This apparently reflected the practice of other Okinawan styles when Okinawan karate was required to adopt the Kyū/Dan system. As the Wiki page on Dan explains, this system in martial arts derives from Kanō Jigorō; however, they did not adopt the "checkered" red to full red belt for the grades beyond godan (5th dan). Further, these senior teaching degrees--Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi--were awarded separately. Inappropriate for Wiki standards, George Mattson relates that when he tested for rokudan (6th dan), after this test he traveled to a different dōjō to be tested for this teaching degree. I have not found a written reference for that. If anyone has one, it would be welcome.

The Issue:

I also lack a reference as to when formal separate testing for these degrees ceased. From at least the 1990s, they were awarded with the required dan grading.

I first noticed the extra-stripes around 2005 when I observed some senior practitioners wearing belts with stripes that now reflected their dan grade. Again, that is not a reference appropriate for Wiki. Not everyone wore the belts with these extra stripes, but over time, it seemed most adopted it. A few years later when searching for the proper kanji I found a webpage for a school for a different Okinawan style in Australia. This system also had the extra stripes. When I enquired about it, the instructor could only respond that his organization in Okinawa simply announced that Okinawan styles have adopted this new system. Finally, as referenced in the article, a major American organization recently voted to adopt this as well.

IF ANYONE has an actual reference for this change on Okinawa please provide it. I am currently trying to find one from Okinawa. Something as simple as, "in 2001, after a long night of karaoke and Orion beer, a bunch of seniors from This-Ryū and That-Ryū decided to change the system because _______."

Until then, I tried to make that section as politically neutral as possible. TheDoctorX (talk) 04:59, 30 September 2016 (UTC)