Talk:USRC Thomas Corwin

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Untitled

Moved here for discussion. I don't think 3 paragraphs needs sections yet.Dankarl (talk) 03:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

However, the first paragraph should be broken into 2 paragraphs as it is a large chunk of text. Overall, the existing text could easily be 5 paragraphs, and then sections would be helpful. Aboutmovies (talk) 10:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just assessed the article for wpships and the only requirement holding this article away from a B-class is the lack of an introductory paragraph and then including the content in sections below that. Introductory paragraphs provide a brief overveiw of the entire article. --Brad (talk) 07:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Section haders and beefed-up intro paragraph done.

Are the rating criteria posted someplace? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dankarl (talk • contribs) 15:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the quality scale for wpships is here. --Brad (talk) 18:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

USRC Corwin = SS Corwin?

Need another read on this - for evaluating evidence and then how to proceed Removed text and reference for now; contention has become dubious. Ships may be same - sources in UW archive seem to say so tho if true it is one of the most remarkable transformations seen.

Former text and reference

She is distinct from the steamer SS Corwin, owned by Schubach & Hamilton and noted for service to Nome in the early twentieth century.^[1]^[2]

Nowell, Frank H. (undated) "Freighting from steamer Corwin with dog teams"; Alaska's Digital Archives, Perry D. Palmer Photograph Album. Archives, University of Alaska, Fairbanks UAF-2004-120-10. (Not USRC Corwin.[this contention now dubious])

Evidence:

1. ~~Port Townsend daily leader~~The morning leader (Port Townsend) November 29, 1902 Page three "Steamer Corwin down from Nome"

2. The morning leader (Port Townsend)November 1, 1903 Page one Former revenue cutter Corwin icebound

3. U.S. Revenue Cutter CORWIN bound for Nome, 1902 Looks like an intermediate stage of conversion? The cataloger was sure: this is the same Corwin that subsequently was first to Nome several years and burned in 1916 (see captions provided).

4. Here's the unmodified Corwin for comparison

DeGroff, Edward (undated) "U.S.R.C. CORWIN. Sitka, Alaska"; Alaska's Digital Archives, Wickersham State Historic Site. Photographs. ASL-P277-018-095

5. U.S. Revenue Cutter CORWIN in the ice, n.d. Again, the cataloger was sure. Look at the bow, there are 2 transitions in the planking as you go up; follow the line of the lower one back. [Plausible as the shear of a schooner's gunwale?Dankarl (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)] Now look at the bow again. Do you see a hint of concavity low, as if there's a clipper bow hiding behind that vertical timber stem?[reply]

6. Steamer Corwin at edge of ice. Note stern construction.

7. Yupik people on beach at Whalen, Siberia, with Steamship CORWIN in distance, 1907 One of Frank Nowell's best; when you get done appreciating it as a photograph, look at Corwin's stern as it approaches the water.

There is only one Corwin listed in the List of Merchant vessels of the United States for 1913 and for 1915; it is stated (in a footnote) to be the former USRC Corwin. This is the ship that tried to go after the Karluk survivors but got stuck on a reef; Bartlett Mentions that she was a former revenue cutter. SS Corwin, the "little Nome steamer" (to quote McCurdy) went through multiple owners but always US companies [except the last, Mexican owners in 1916Dankarl (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)] SS Corwin was sold and burned in drydock in 1916. Former USRC Corwin is in list 1915, not 1918 (I have not seen 1916, 1917) There is no construction listing in McCurdy for SS Corwin, no fate beyond sale for USRC Corwin.[reply]

McCurdy names only one owner before the Mexican sale; at least 3 others turn up in a web search. I need to go back through notes and search histories to confirm and get details like spelling.Dankarl (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So what do you think? Photo (3) above is ~~certainly~~ [entirely plausible asDankarl (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)] USRC Corwin with a ~~deckhouse~~ cabin added at the stern. Did this ship become SS Corwin of 5-7?[reply]

Myself, I'm 95+% convinced, just surprised she was seaworthy. But this whole chain of evidence is too much to develop in an encyclopedia article, especially since several of the photos are not public domain. Plus it is starting to push on NOR. Is this common knowledge among Seattle ship buffs? Or do we have an expert?Dankarl (talk) 03:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If true, this is too good a story not to tell, but it would sure be nice to find it spelled out in a reliable source. If this were in the collection description, and/or attributable to an identifiable individual I'd just cite the archive, but I've seen too many questionable captions. Dankarl (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More evidence: List of Merchant Vessels 1901 p226 Corwin is shown as 307 tons gross, 153 net, 137.5ft long, 24 beam, 11.3 depth 1913 part 6 p 49 447 gross, 239 net, 138 ft x 24 x 13.2 deep and 2 decks. She got a lot bigger. 1901 home port was Boston (presume only for registration). other List of Merchant Vessels URLs in article. Wish I could find part 6 for other yearsDankarl (talk) 17:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two photos of SS Corwin are stern views showing name "Corwin of Boston". One is the Nowell 1907 photo cited above and in article. The other is Kaiser (1910) Steamer Corwin landing goods and passengers on the ice Dankarl (talk) 22:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrote it up and put it in. Think there are enough text-based sources to eliminate dependence on photographs.Dankarl (talk) 22:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Text references supporting identity of the passenger-carrying SS Corwin with the former USRC Corwin: Morning Leader 1902 and 1903, Swann, Bureau of Navigation, Kimball, Keeler, New York Times May 31 1914, Harrison. Years West was stated to be Captain: Swann 1900, 1902-10, Standard Marine 1900, Vanderlip 1900, Keeler 1905, Kimball about 1911 (published spring 1912; Kimball's information about the Corwin is apparently older than for the rest of ~~the~~ [his] article since West retired after 1910 season Dankarl (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)); , Harrison about 1905, Morning Leader 1902 and 1903. Corwin of attempted Karluk rescue 1914 was former USRC Corwin: Bartlett, Stefansson, New York Times September 22, 1914.Dankarl (talk) 21:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

West's memoir Captains Papers largely confirms chronology of the the transformation; stern cabin first added 1900; wireless added in 1904 refit. Dankarl (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gordon Newell and Joe Williamson, Pacific Coastal Liners, Superior Publishing Co. Seattle 1959 say little about the SS Corwin but are aware she was the former revenue cutter and often first to Nome. Secondary source and predates publication of West's memoir.

Canney, Donald L. (1995) US Coast Guard and Revenue Cutters 1790-1935 Naval Institute Press ISBN 1-55750-101-7 is aware Corwin in merchant service, often pictured with white upper works, is former USRC CorwinDankarl (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Swan ref removed from article since it duplicates and probably relies on material in West. Left here for completeness.Dankarl (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Swan, Judy Haddock (1998) The Descendants of Thomas and Sarah (Butler) West. 55. Ellsworth Luce West.

References

^ Compare the picture illustrating this article and the DeGroff (USRC Corwin) photo with the Nowell (SS Corwin) photograph.
^ Tacoma Public Library (d)

[1] Compare the picture illustrating this article and the DeGroff (USRC Corwin) photo with the Nowell (SS Corwin) photograph.

[2] Tacoma Public Library (d)

[1]

[2]