Talk:UK Military Flying Training System

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the UK Military Flying Training System article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

United Kingdom Low‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Aviation: Aircraft

This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

This article is supported by the aircraft project.

Military history: Aviation / British / European

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military aviation task force
	British military history task force
	European military history task force

What is it?

Having created this article I am not at all sure about how to categorise it. Is it military history? Is it a military establishment? Is it a company? What infobox would be appropriate? any ideas would be welcome! --Bye for now (PTT) 17:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC). Some possible examples with similarities:[reply]

Future_Strategic_Tanker_Aircraft - PFI with similar overall value and much the same contractors bidding.
List of British Commonwealth Air Training Plan facilities in Australia.
NATO Flying Training in Canada - a similar program, though on a smaller scale, but has no infobox.

Or is it just a privatised organisation with a very large background section going back to 1917 ?? Just to play devil's advocate: how can an organisation that is owned, run and (ideally/eventually) entirely staffed by civilians be considered a military unit? Is it actually just the name for a supply contract, admittedly a very elaborate/complex one?

--Bye for now (PTT) 12:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Background

According to No._22_Group_RAF#Current_Organisation_.26_Responsibilities and David_Harrison_(RAF_officer)#Military_career the MFTS seems to have the end result of work started by (then) Group Captain Harrison and fall under the responsibility of No. 22 Group RAF (at least in the early years). Unfortunately, neither of these articles appear well enough sourced to really establish this.

Ascent

from their legal page:

Ascent Group Company details

Ascent flight Training (Holding) Limited, company number 06522853
Ascent Flight Training (Management) Limited, company number 06522636
Ascent Flight Training (Services) Limited, company number 06522487
Advanced Jet Training (Holdings) Limited, company number 06522819
Advanced Jet Training Limited, Company number 06522504
The registered office for all companies is C/O Babcock International Group PLC, 33 Wigmore Street, London W1U 1QX.

Postal Address: Ascent Flight Training, # 7001, MOD Abbey Wood, Bristol BS34 8JH.

Suggestions

G'day. Can I make a couple of suggestions regarding improving the article? WRF the Bombardier contract, a link to Scottish Aviation Bulldog, Grob G 115, Short Tucano, and BAE Systems Hawk and a brief explanation of what type of aircraft and their age would help to place the UKMFTS in context. UASs should be linked, dispense with the bulleted list in the lead, it should just be prose. There are acronyms being used without providing them in full first, such as DE&S, PFI and MoD. I suggest that a good practice to get into when citing a list is to place the citation tag after the colon, that way it is clear the citation relates to the whole list. The EFT, BFT and MEPT sections are repetitive. I suggest one section with the lead-in sentences about the re-launch, then subsections for each training type. What are "rear aircrew"? Loadies etc? The article is a bit jargonistic, and needs plainer English. ie "Main Gate approval", "Not to Exceed". In terms of coverage, what information is available about satisfaction with the overall privatised system for training, is it meeting expectations?, etc. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 23:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, some good ideas there - but no all of them that simple/quick to implement, so I'll break them down into a to-do list:

--Bye for now (PTT) 13:48, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Scottish Aviation Bulldog

~~find out the type and in-service date (with a source)~~

132 Bulldog primary trainers were ordered for delivery in 1973 and 1974 for use in Air Experience Flights and University Air Squadrons.^[1]^[2] --Bye for now (PTT) 12:45, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

University Air Squadrons

~~find out Bulldog usage (with a source)~~

Most of the 132 Bulldog primary trainers that were ordered were for use in the University Air Squadrons.^[1]^[3] --Bye for now (PTT) 13:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Grob G 115

~~find out the type and in-service date (with a source)~~

90 basic trainer aircraft supplied on a 10-year supply and maintenance contract for university air squadrons and air cadets, from 1999.^[4]^[5]^[6] --Bye for now (PTT) 14:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Short Tucano

~~find out the type and in-service date (with a source)~~

Two seat, tandem, fully aerobatic turboprop, [1] 130 were on order in February 1989[2] --Bye for now (PTT) 12:43, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

BAE Systems Hawk

~~find out the type and in-service date (with a source):~~

The Hawk T1 advanced jet trainer entered RAF service in 1977, with 116 aircraft ordered^[7] --Bye for now (PTT) 10:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

RAF Rear Aircrew

The "Rear Aircrew Brevet" (badge is for Navigators, Air Electronics Officers/Operators, Air Engineers and Air Loadmasters from April 2003.[3] but need a better source/explanation as Air Loadmasters are unlikely to need the "rear aircrew" training in the UKMFTS. Training for Navigators/Weapon Systems Officers seem to have been phased out in 2003.[4] The Hawker Siddeley Dominie was retired in 2011 after 45 years in service. It had been used in the training of Navigators, Weapons Systems Officers, Air Electronics Operators, Air Engineers and Air Loadmasters[5] GOT IT!! --Bye for now (PTT) 12:43, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Meeting of expectations

- anything out there, other than on aircrew/military forums?

in 2023, The RAF had been unable to teach new pilots to fly for nearly five months after its fleet of 90 Grob Tutor training aircraft was grounded after two aircraft shed their propellers in flight.^[5]

There is THIS and THIS but then they would say that, wouldn't they? Hardly an independent assessment. --Bye for now (PTT) 14:56, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Worth reassessing?

Hi Peacemaker67, I think I have done as much as is practical on this for now, Cheers, --Bye for now (PTT) 19:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b Flight 1971, p. 2628.
^ Flight 1973, p. 377.
^ Flight 1973, p. 378.
^ Flight 1998.
^ ^a ^b Coghlan 2013.
^ RAF/Timeline 2014.
^ Flight 1977, p. 1728.

Harv's

Flight (10 Dec 1977). "Hawker Siddeley". Flight International. Retrieved 19 Oct 2014. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
Flight (2 Dec 1971). "Bulldogs for the RAF". Flight International. Retrieved 19 Oct 2014. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
Flight (30 Aug 1973). "Bulldogs for the RAF". Flight International. Retrieved 19 Oct 2014. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
Flight (24 Jun 1998). "Bombardier/Grob selected for RAF contract". Flight International. Retrieved 19 Oct 2014. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
Coghlan, Tom (31 May 2013). "Pilot training halted after RAF planes lose propellers in flight". The Times. Retrieved 19 Oct 2014. {{cite news}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
RAF/Timeline (2014). "RAF Timeline 1990 -1999". Royal Air Force. Retrieved 19 Oct 2014. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

[FOOTNOTEFlight19712628-1] Flight 1971, p. 2628.

[FOOTNOTEFlight1973377-2] Flight 1973, p. 377.

[FOOTNOTEFlight1973378-3] Flight 1973, p. 378.

[FOOTNOTEFlight1998-4] Flight 1998.

[FOOTNOTECoghlan2013-5] Coghlan 2013.

[FOOTNOTERAF/Timeline2014-6] RAF/Timeline 2014.

[FOOTNOTEFlight19771728-7] Flight 1977, p. 1728.

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]