Talk:Turlough O'Carolan

Carolan or O'Carolan?

Grove 5 lists him as Carolan, and says "The O'Carolan form of his name is modern and lacks authority". We currently use both versions in the article, which needs to be corrected one way or the other. Better to be consistently wrong than have a foot in both camps. JackofOz 12:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The writers of Grove are musicologists first and ethnologists second(or third or fourth, or not at all). The article lists the Gaelic name, which clearly includes the O' prefix, variously interpreted as 'grandson of' or 'of the family of'. Turlough may very well have gone by Carolan, in that by the eighteenth century, the Penal Laws had caused most Irish to use anglicized spellings of their names. There is, however, a school of thought holding that no Irish surname is corect without an O', Mac, or Ni. 72.81.216.227 (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Be that as it may, we can't go around changing the names that dead people actually used, on the basis of modern schools of thought. I have an Irish surname that does not start with any of those prefixes. To append one on the basis of what some school of thought says it should be would be to change my name, and I would not recognise it or be in any way happy with it. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:38, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

O'Carolan is far and away the more common anglicised form of his name. Here in Meath, the local school in his home village of Nobber is O'Carolan College. The vast majority of that surname here who use an anglicised form of their surname use O'Carolan. A Google Fight result overwhelmingly sides with O'Carolan: Turlough O'Carolan v. Turlough Carolan. The former should therefore be used here. IF, however, you want to use "the name he actually used", then this article should be named Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin. There is no evidence that Ó Cearbhalláin ever called himself Turlough Carolan. 109.76.251.112 (talk) 00:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

What proof that he ever used the Irish version of his name? In fact would that be even how it was spelt seeing as your spelling it with modern Irish. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

There is loads of proof he used the Irish version of his name, but no evidence whatsoever that he ever used the English version. Do you have any? He signed himself, as everybody did, with his first and second name. In this case, as Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin. As this article is naturally enough entitled with his first and second names it should follow his practice. As one website interprets Donal O'Sullivan(an expert on Ó Cearbhalláin): "According to O'Sullivan, when full names (first and last together) are written in Gaelic it is customary to add the Ó prefix."(http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/carlnbio.html). Ó Cearbhalláin never, ever, ever in his life signed his name as "Carolan". The closest he ever came was "Cearbhallán". Therefore, by precisely the argument you're using (namely what did Ó Cearbhalláin call himself), this article should be under the title "Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin" and, following Ó Cearbhalláin's usage, under "Cearbhallán" thereafter throughout the article. "Carolan" or even "O'Carolan", according to the standard you set for the Irish, has no place in this article. 109.76.135.231 (talk) 21:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

My original issue was less with whether it should be "Carolan" or "O'Carolan", but more with making sure we use whatever version consistently throughout the article. On the basis of the above, I'd support moving it to Turlough O'Carolan and changing the text accordingly. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd support such a move to comply with WP:COMMONNAME. RashersTierney (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Done. (See also WP:IMOS#Biographical articles). RashersTierney (talk) 12:54, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I found one remaining reference to O'Carolan (without given name) in the article and corrected it to Carolan. My main research source Donal O'Sullivan states categorically that in Carolan's time, it was never a stand-alone "O'Carolan".Ramseyman (talk) 00:16, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CBI - SERIES B - FIFTY POUND NOTE.PNG

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Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 21:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Notable Compositions - Performances

This partial list of compositions considered by someone to be "notable" strikes me as being completely without authority. What makes them notable? Who determined which compositions to include in the list? If they are best-selling recordings, who performed them? I can think of at least as many other Carolan pieces that are just as notable as these in my mind, but I doubt my opinions would carry any more weight than what I see here. If this subsection is to remain, I'd like to see it fleshed out with references and some kind of rationale. Ramseyman (talk) 15:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Update: the sorry state of the "Performances" section continued to gnaw at me. So I have now taken a crack at making it more objective. My overhaul of the section included deleting the vacuous Notable Performances subsection and substituting a list of the songs that are without question the most frequently recorded. The numbers in parentheses are the quantities of recordings of each song which I have in my personal collection, a collection as complete as I can possibly assemble. It doesn't particularly lend itself to sourcing, but the numbers are certainly valid. I sincerely hope that the deletions I've made do not rub anyone the wrong way. Whoever posted all that stuff had well over 2 years to get it to make sense, but they never did. Ramseyman (talk) 05:37, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Checking in today, I found that someone entered a sentence at the end of this section about an acoustic guitarist who had recorded 2 of the most popular Carolan pieces in 2021 and 2023. As these 2 performances are fairly typical of the dozens of guitar renditions of Carolan pieces, I have deleted the sentence and added to the recording numbers in the middle of the section. If something similar happens again, I intend to do the same.Ramseyman (talk) 17:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Music of Carolan

This section is for discussion of specific songs attributed to O'Carolan.

Athlone

A Google search reveals several songs containing the word 'Athlone':

• "The Bridge of Athlone" (e.g., abc tune search)
• "The Maid of Athlone" (e.g., Free Celtic Sheet Music)
• "The Trip to Athlone" (e.g., Session Sheet Music)

None of these tunes (nor a tune simple named "Athlone") is to be found in Ossian or on the Turlough O'Carolan site

What is the full intended name of this tune? Where is it referenced? What is the source of attributing this tune to O'Carolan? DrFree (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Banks of the Shannon

A Google search reveals several sites containing a tune named 'The Banks of the Shannon', for example:

• abc tune search
• freesheetmusic.net)

None of these sites attribute the tune to O'Carolan; nor is it to be found in Ossian or on the Turlough O'Carolan site.

What is the source of attributing this tune to O'Carolan? DrFree (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

A while back, I made some revisions to the "Compositions" section which clarified the source(s) of this tune, as well as "Athlone" above. Ramseyman (talk) 07:06, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Carolan's Concerto

This is listed by O'Sullivan as untitled tune no. 171. I have changed the paragraph where someone reported that harpist Alison Kinnaird had a friend who thought that it was actually a different song written by someone else. It is not. This is one of many examples of Irish musicians getting tunes and titles confused, and sometimes confusing entirely different melodies that have similarities. O'Sullivan does not categorize no. 171 as a piece that "May not be by Carolan", as he has done with a full 26 of the other 214. Instead, I have rewritten the paragraph to note that there is often such confusion, and to give a more legitimate example showing how some of it comes about. Ramseyman (talk) 21:30, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Carolan's Dream

My understanding is that the main melody of the famous Led Zeppelin song "Stairway to Heaven" is derived from Turlough O'Carolan's tune called "Carolan's Dream". Search for "Carolan's Dream" on YouTube if you would like to hear it. Matagamasi (talk) 02:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

One of them is also known as Carolan's Dream Gwaka Lumpa (talk) 10:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Farewell to Music

There seem to be two different tunes which go under this name. I searched O Carolan's Farewell to Music on Spotify, and two completely unrelated songs could be heard. Does either one have an alternative title?

86.54.207.8 (talk) 10:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

"Carolan's Farewell to Music" is the traditional title of no. 188 in Donal O'Sullivan's "Life Times and Music", vol. 2, p. 113. The only other traditional title of the piece is "Carolan's Farewell". It is a hauntingly sad piece said to have been played by Carolan just before retiring to his deathbed. On the same page, O'Sullivan happens to mention the other piece that has borne that title, no. 187, usually referred to as "Carolan's Dream" and also the same as - or similar to - a popular tune called "Molly MacAlpin" written by William Connellan. The "Farewell" title was applied to no. 187 in 1846 in Thomas Mooney's book *History of Ireland*, apparently erroneously. Other titles of no. 187 include "Molly Halfpenny" and "Muada Ni Dhuda" This last is from another song about a Maud O'Dowd, which was set to the tune of no. 187 sometime after Carolan's lifetime. Ramseyman (talk) 19:57, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Lord Inchiquin

On the title listing of this piece, I attempted to link to Wikipedia's article about the subject of the song, Murrough O'Brien, 1st Earl of Inchiquin. I now see that that link has been deleted. I believe it is well documented by Carolan's biographer Donal O'Sullivan that the first Earl was indeed the individual for whom Carolan named the song. Does someone have some information to the contrary? Or are we not wanting that kind of detail, even though it takes up no additional space? Ramseyman (talk) 01:20, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I did not remove the link, but just wonder wether O'Sullivan's linking to this 1st earl of Inchiquin can be correct. Murrough O'Brien lived 1614–1674, and Carolan was born in 1670. He certainly cannot have known him personally. This is no necessity, of course, when naming a piece of music after someone, but Carolan usually named pieces after his own contemporaries and people he met. – Aklein62 (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can tell this revision undone the link. My feeling is I am somewhat minded towards Aklein62's reasoning however I accept Ramseyman may be correct. Probably the best solution would be if specific page reference(s) to Donal O'Sullivan's (I assume Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper) work could be cited pointing to the first Earl. If that is the case if could be cited on the article for the 1st earl of Inchiquin and linking to it would then be appropriate. (This is very much not not my subject area ... I just happen to have the page on my watchlist from an earlier minor edit). I might get the Turlough/Keenan book for curiorisity .. 50p from library or 3gbp secondhand.Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh, then it was me, in fact, who removed the link. Sorry, I had forgotten. But yes, that's my reasoning, and I hold on to it. I regard it as extremely unlikely that the first Earl of Inchiquin is the "Lord Inchiquin" in question, for the simple reason that Carolan was 3 or 4 years old when the Earl died, and ALL of his compositions with personal names refer to someone who enjoyed a personal visit by our harper-composer. Much more likely would be a son by that Earl. This one, for instance: William O'Brien, 2nd Earl of Inchiquin is much more likely, although he died young (1692, when Carolan was 22) and seems never to have set foot on Irish soil. Or perhaps that William's son, also named William: William O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Inchiquin who lived 1662–1719. Apparently the Governor of County Clare, that one is the most likely "Lord Inchiquin", if you ask me. I should write a book about it. – Aklein62 (talk) 20:22, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

All right I somehow goofed here … BUT … Carolan's most common habit was indeed to write tributes to his (living) patrons, but there were some other pieces which broke that pattern. For instance, no. 211 in the repertoire is a lament to Owen Roe O'Neill (Eoghain Ruaidh Uí Néill), an Irish national hero who died many years before Carolan was born. In Vol. 2 of "Carolan the Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper", page 36, Donal O'Sullivan writes, "The subject is doubtless the 4th Earl of Inchiquin, who succeeded to the title on his father's death, 24th December, 1719". He goes on to give a plausible explanation of the song being so composed, although none of the words have come down to us in any form. So I was wrong, but at least we know. Ramseyman (talk) 03:17, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Music and Style

The two instances of "it is said" in the last paragraph of this section might be true, but if so then they ought to be sourced.Ramseyman (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

ITMA Bunting manuscripts

The ITMA manuscripts published a fairly extensive extract of his lyrics, but few completely. Is it worth adding a link somewhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.63.33 (talk) 10:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Dead link.Ramseyman (talk) 03:35, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

(Classical) Composer

This article on Carolan contains the phrase "Although not a composer in the classical sense, Carolan is considered by many to be Ireland's national composer". Yesterday, an anonymous editor claimed this could not be justified "except in bigotry". However, the fact remains that Carolan WAS NOT a composer in the classical sense, call it bigotry or not, and it should be clearly pointed out in this article. In the article Composer, the definition is: "The core meaning of the term refers to individuals who have contributed to the tradition of Western classical music through creation of works expressed in written musical notation (e.g., sheet music scores)." Although personally I would expand that term to include composers of popular music and jazz, the fact remains that Carolan merely 'wrote' melodies, and because he was blind he did not even write them down. The melodies were transmitted orally and only written down by later generations, one of them being Carolan's son. A composer, on the other hand, not only writes a melody but also the harmony (in Carolan's times the counterpoint) and defines tempo, modes of expression, and other elements that make up a composition. And he usually learns his trade by studying with a more experienced teacher, often at a conservatory or music academy. All that was not available to Carolan. Which is why he was "not a composer in the classical sense". Please keep that phrase. – Aklein62 (talk) 14:53, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Birthplace of Turlough O'Carolan

Comment: If it is reliable then Library of Ireland From The Cabinet of Irish Literature, Volume 1 (1880), edited by Charles A. Read is in support of Newton in the County of Westmeath. As 809413409 was unsourced it was correct to undo it.Djm-leighpark (talk) 13:52, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

That is an ancient and outdated source. The most recent (and I should say, reliable) source is the Encyclopaedia of Music in Ireland, ed. by Harry White and Barra Boydell (Dublin: UCD Press, 2013), which says "Nobber, Co. Meath" (page 162). Aklein62 (talk) 14:18, 10 November 2017 (UTC)