Talk:Turkish Van/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Comments

Inconsistancy with the general Cats article

the "Preservation" section states that Angoras are def. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats says this is a widespread misconseption. Will author edit?

When and where

"Turkish Vans have been living in their native Turkey for thousands of years" Plain ignorant. Turkey hasn't even been there for thousand years, to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:141.215.11.146 (talk • contribs)

Everyone knows what that means. Semantics does not equal ignorance. Pschemp 05:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Whoever put this article together did a great job. Thanks!

Keep in mind that most Wikipedia articles are collaborative efforts, so what makes an article great is often the work of many people. You can use the history function to see how the article evolved over time.--DooMDrat 12:24, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah but I wrote the main article. Thanks to the community for format tweaking though. :) Thanks for the complement. Pschemp 20:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Come to Turkey and see what a real Van cat is. I do not know the ones in Europe but here in Turkey, all Van cats are pure white with one eye green, one eye blue. That's exactly a Van cat... They're not currently sold here to ordinary people. A special vet clinic in Van (city) breeds them for their protection of genetics and blood purity. --JohnEmerald 06:42, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) that's easy.. Enter http://www.google.com.tr, enter the graphics section, write "van kedi" or "van cat" and press search. View the results ; )

I am well aware that in Turkey a Van Kedi is an all white cat with odd eyes. However, the Turkish Vans that were first imported from Turkey to Europe had color on their heads and tails and that has been preserved in the breed and Turkish Vans in all registering bodies that accept them to be shown around the world require vans with color. There is a movement to accept the all white cat as a separate breed under the name Van Kedi or Vankedisi. I have never claimed Turkish Vans are Van Kedis by the Turkish definition. In fact I mentioned this in the article if you read closely. I know many Turks have an issue with this, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Turkish Van breeders have no issue with the Van Kedi being an all white cat with odd eyes, it is just considered a separate breed from the the Turkish Van. Many, Many Vans that were imported from Van had the head and tail color pattern and are just as authentic Turkish cats, they are just not what is preferred in their native area. Pschemp 15:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My Turkish Van Kedesi died July 15, 2005 at the age of 18.5. I brought her back from Izmir, Turkey, although she was born at Ankara Zoo. The family that brought her to Izmir Zoo could not keep her. When I got Pamuk there were lines for Turkish Van kittens, all white, with odd-eyes... they couldn't keep enough for the demand. But Pamuk was 6 months old, and no one wanted an older cat. I took her because she would have been euthanised the next day. I brought Pamuk back stateside with me and she was my lifelong friend. All white, with an Amber eye and an Azure eye she was simply gorgeous. (http://www.pamuk.us and http://www.myspace.com/pamuk). I miss her dearly. I rescued a 3.5 year old Turkish Angora from a shelter yesterday that had been returned by 3 families for heel biting.. Goodness, do people know nothing about these breeds? Sophia is a lovely cat, very affectionate, almost as interested in the water as Pamuk, and quite charming. No cat can replace Pamuk, but these breeds are loving, generous cats that can give you a lifetime of joy. I highly recommend the Turkish Van and the Turkish Angora, you will not be dissapointed. [Annette] 13:08, 25 July 2005

Wow, I have a Turkish Van cat and I never knew most of the info in this article. :) XYaAsehShalomX 21:59, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Have someone noticed the following: "The climate change in Turkey throughout the year seems to have designed the cat's coat over time. Eastern Turkey is mountainous, and Lake Van sits over 5,260 ft (1,600 m).) above sea level". I mean the climate change, relating to the territory of whole Turkey. Turkey is a large country with its different provinces located in different climatic zones. The weather and climate in the Mediterranean coast is not the same, as it is in Eastern Anatolia, where lake Van is located, and where the climate is continental, and the climate change is sharp. So, I offer to write "The climate change in Eastern Anatolia throughout the year seems to have designed the cat's coat over time. North Eastern Turkey is mountainous, and Lake Van sits over 5,260 ft (1,600 m).) above sea level.--Zara-arush (talk) 23:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)"

Misplaced Picture

Could someone with more experience please remove the pic from the External links section. It really doesn't belong there and doesn't do it justice. Thanks since I'm a newbie. LdyDragonfly 06:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it. Check the version difference to see how it was done. Check out the editing help for more info, and try out anything you're unsure of in the sandbox.--Drat (Talk) 09:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Van Cats in Turkey

Turkish Turkish Van Cat

It would be nice if someone with the knowledge could add a paragraph about the differences between Van cats in Turkey and abroad. Bertilvidet 20:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh you mean that part of Turkey that used to be Armenia? Let's not go there. This is about the established breed, not the Van kedi. pschemp | talk 20:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes Anatolia, nowadays Turkey, used to be many different countries and empires...It could be nice if someone could sort out why the breeds not are considered the same around the globe. Living in Turkey, this article made me rather confused. Bertilvidet 21:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What does "Van" mean?

In the intro it is stated "The word van refers to their color pattern, where the color is restricted to the head and the tail, and the rest of the cat is white". What is meant by that???? I assume that there is no doubt that Van (Kurdish: Wan, Armenian Վան)is the area in Eastern Turkey from where the breed comes from. Bertilvidet 07:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I will be bold and remove / reword the paragraph if no objections are made within 24 hours. Bertilvidet 12:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not. That is referring to van without a capital V. In the cat breeding world, that does refer to the pattern. Please do not change facts you don't know about. It is explained quite clearly later that Van with a capital V is where the cats came from. You still don't get that this is an article about a specific cat breed, with specific terminology and requirements. You are not a cat breeder so please leave information alone. This not an article about Turkey, or what Turks consider Van Kedi. This is an article about the Turkish Van breed as shown in the major cat showing associations. If you want to write an article about Van Kedi in turkey feel free to do so, but this article is something different. pschemp | talk 13:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please remain civil. I do believe that the article should be accesible also for non experts, and I do certainly not claim to be one. I am also even not a native English speaker, so I assume you deeply disrespect me. With my naivity I do not even know the word "van" means, in any meaning referring to a color pattern. I do humbly propose the superior people to explain these issues, so that we the naive, ignorant mob can have a chance of maybe becoming just a little bit less uninformed. Bertilvidet 13:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am being civil. You don't know about cat breeding. Stating the truth is not uncivil. You disrespect me by assuming I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to cats. pschemp | talk 13:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope there are no objections - but I have edited the start of the entry to make it clear that Turkish Vans and Van cats are different. There needs to be a separate entry for them. (It is called a Van Kedisi (cat of Van), btw, and not a Van Kedi.)Meowy 02:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"Van" in a place name means town or settlement, as in Yerevan, Tatvan, Nakhchivan, etc. Meowy 16:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe so. However, the lead of the article claims that van refers to the colour. This must be clarified. Bertilvidet 20:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You are getting mixed up again Bertivedet. In the general terminology of cat breeders, van (with a lowercase v) refers to the pattern, as it mentions in the source cited. Van with a captial V refers to Lake Van. Don't confuse the two. Also, if you want to write an article about the Van kedisi in Turkey, that's fine, but that information doesn't belong here, because that's a separate breed. Don't assume that the English words, Turkish Van are just a translation of Van Kedisi, they aren't, they are a separate breed and need their own article. Again, we are talking about English usage here, as this is the English wikipedia. Please try to remember that. Even meowy up there agrees. pschemp | talk 20:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's another reference from the Cat Fanciers Associaition, the people who make the breed standard referring to the van pattern on a different breed, "Includes all expressions of the white spotting gene including the van pattern. [1].pschemp | talk 20:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Pschemp, I notice you restored the edited text that I had erased and that went "Turkish Vans have been living in their native Anatolia for thousands of years and various references to "white ringtail" cats through history show this. The classic red tabby and white pattern gives the ringtail appearance and has been found depicted on Hittite jewelry of antiquity. Also, archeologists have found "...relics of an ancient battle during the occupation of Armenia by the Romans included armor and banners displaying an image of a large white cat with rings on its tail." All of this "history" is in fact nonsense, which is why I have erased it again. Firstly, as you yourself have said, Turkish Vans are not Van Cats, there fore the statement that they have been living in their "native anatolia for thousands of years" is clearly wrong even in your eyes. There is also no evidence whatsoever that Van Cats have lived in the Lake Van region (which is NOT part of historical Anatolia BTW) for thosuands of years. Maybe they have - but there is no evidence to prove it. Show me a picture of any cat, white or otherwise, on Hittite jewelery. You can't, because it doesn't exist. And even if it did - the Hittite lands were nowhere near lake Van! Same for the "relics of an ancient battle" comment - totaly made-up history! You take care of the cat breeding side of the entry, and I'll take care of the history side!

Meowy 22:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Pschemp, your repeated re-insertion of the deleted material, together with your refusal to address the points I have raised above, is puzzling. I also note that the website you cite as the source has no references whatsoever to back up the laughable information it claims to be "history".

swimming cat

I wound up here looking for a pic of a swimming cat. Kinda dissapointing! -- Kendrick7^talk 01:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is one: swimming white cat Meowy 17:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

That's cute but it isn't a Turkish Van. pschemp | talk 19:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

However, it is (probably) a Van cat Meowy 19:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, we are talking about the Turkish Van as a registered breed here, not "Van cats." Once again, you fail to see the difference. pschemp | talk 22:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Kendrick, Here is a picture of a swimming Turkish Van [2]. pschemp | talk 03:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Challenge to Turkish Van

I acknowledge that the scource cited by pschemp does not have any references. However, that is not necessarily cause to think that it is false. What are the reasons behind the challenge of this information? Perhaps, if the challenger can produce reason to think that this other unreferenced source is invalid for some reason other than simply the lack of reference, maybe then we could determine where the facts might lie. However, simply to challenge a source because it is not itself referenced is probably not the best way to go, again, unless the person issuing the challenge has specific and creditable reason to believe that the unreferenced source is unreliable. Badbilltucker 20:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I had already, I thought, given ample reasons why the offending paragraph can safely be classed as “fake history”. Really, it is so obviously nonsense that I find it difficult to imagine anyone would actually believe it. However, I will reiterate my reasons again.

Turkish Vans have been living in their native Anatolia for thousands of years

The term “Anatolia” applied to the territory of the Roman Empire (and its successor the Byzantine Empire) that was located in Asia minor. Lake Van was never a part of the Roman Empire, so Anatolia can hardly be called their “native” land, can it? “For thousands of years” - where is there evidence for this sweeping statement? There is none.

various references to "white ringtail" cats

Where are these references? They cannot be cited because they do not exist. And even if they did exist, they are irrelevant since the fur of the Van cat is 100% white and has no markings on its tale.

The classic red tabby and white pattern gives the ringtail appearance and has been found depicted on Hittite jewelry (sic) of antiquity.

No such jewellery has been found. And the Hittite lands were nowhere near Lake Van – so it is, again, completely irrelevant.

…archaeologists have found "...relics of an ancient battle during the occupation of Armenia by the Romans included armor and banners displaying an image of a large white cat with rings on its tail".

This is such a ludicrous statement that it is hard to know where to begin. What battle? When and where did it take place? When was it excavated? Sorry to break the bad news to you – but not a single battle site has been excavated. In fact, it is worse – not a single battleground site has even been identified. Even the location of best-recorded one (fought in 69BC between the Roman general Lucullus and king Tigran of Armenia) remains completely unidentified. And anyway, the Romans came nowhere near Lake Van. Do you know what these “banners” would have been made of? Textiles, or skin. Do you actually seriously believe that any such relics could have survived?

Finally, the “article” containing this “history” has been lifted from what (based on the url) appears to have been someone’s amateur website (http://www.turcoman.btinternet.co.uk/) - a site that no longer exists.Meowy 19:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No disagreement with any of the above, based on my own lack of research. However, I still find no specific sources cited which specifically contradict the information, simply what seem to me, as an outsider, to be implications of possible flaws in the sources used by the other side. I acknowledge and respect the fact that proving a negative is almost an impossibility, however, if you could cite sources which specifically support your statements regarding the unreliability of the sources you question, I think we would all be grateful. Also, please note that there have been recent changes to the article itself. Please indicate whether you believe the article as it currently exists is flawed, and where and why. Lastly, note that you yourself have reverted the article three times to reflect your own opinion, which you have (at least immediately above) cited no specific sources to support. Badbilltucker 21:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

One problem here is that Meowy is still claiming that a Van cat is totally white. In Turkey, a "Van Kedisi" in that region is all white. However, this article is about the registered and pedigreed breed, not what the Turks call a "Van cat". (and you will find patterned cats roaming the Van region of Turkey, though the turks themselves ignore them). So, Meowy's reasoning is based on a flawed assumption to begin with. I have told him/her many times to start a separate article about the Van Kedisi, the all white cat in Turkey which is a separate breed if they would like. Additionally, he/she needs to keep in mind that this is the English Wikipedia and in English, "Turkish Van" refers specifically to this pedigreed breed, as opposed to the Turkish "Van Kedisi" (Van Cat) which refers to the all white cat from that region. I have to say I haven't really been answering because so far, Meowy has failed to grasp this basic distinction, and seems to be editing from a Turkish nationalistic point of view. pschemp | talk 22:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

pschemp, the first comment in this discussion page reveals how unqualified you are to talk about this subject. "Turkish Vans have been living in their native Turkey for thousands of years" you wrote, blindly ignorant of all the cultural sensitivites that such an inaccurate statement displays. And you are still doing it. The history of the Turkish Van does not extend back further than the 1950s. Anything older refers to the Van cat / Van Kedisi - the all white Van cat. You do not have the right to rewrite history just because you own a non-all white "Turkish Van", and see some prestige (and perhaps monetary value) in faking the breed's historical past. Meowy 00:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Badbilltucker - one cannot disprove an article that has no sources, written by an anonymous person. If I were to say I saw little green aliens having a picnic in my back garden, you cannot disprove it. All you could say is that it such a laughable story, so devoid of any proof that common sense would suggest it to be false. That is exactly what I have attempted to do with this fake Van cat "history", becasue it would be unbelievable to anyone with even a basic knowledge of the history of Armenia. Pschemp alas, does not have even that basic knowledge, but is seeking to take sole possesion of all aspects of "her" article. All I can suggest is that we ask some persons who have written other entries to do with the history of Armenia, or the Roman Empire, or the Hittites, to make some comments here. Meowy 00:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

why? WP:CITE is really all that applies here. If you can cite a source that has the claim of "Hittite jewlery" with such cats, fine. If not, the claim has no place. Many animal depictions are known from Luwian archaeology, many of them depicting mythological beasts. Unless we can state precisely what we are referring to here, this is basically an urban legend and has no place here. dab (��) 08:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, If you read the section below, I have at least 3 sources which discuss this. pschemp | talk 13:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Falsifying history?

OK, I now see what pschemp's end-game is. I have just noted that she has erased the part of the introductory paragraph that mentioned that there were differences between "Turkish Vans" and the cats known as "Van cats".

Pschemp owns a "Turkish Van", perhaps she also breeds them. It would be in her interest to maintain that the "Turkish Van" is a 2000 year old breed of cat, attaching all sort of romantic tales to its history. In fact, the "Turkish Van" has no obvious connection at all to the Van cat: in looks, behaviour, and colouring it is entirely different. And its known history goes back no further than a couple of anonymous cats that were picked up in Turkey in the 1950s.Meowy 00:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly urge the above user to assume good faith and not make what are potentially slanderous statements regarding someone who disagrees with them. Badbilltucker 01:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I did use "perhaps"es and a "?". And she does own a Turkish Van cat (an award-winning one). I think people can be allowed make their own conclusions. Anyway, I'll remove the F word. Maybe I should have just accused her of being an obsessed cat owner! Meowy 01:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If you didn't want to malign me, you wouldn't have posted such nonsense. Again, you show your ignorance of the breed. Making the title of this section "Falsifying history for financial gain" is a clear attack, even if you removed it later. I have sources (noted below) that back me up. pschemp | talk 02:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The history of the whole region - that is named at present in most cases as Eastern Anatolia - is already falsified. At the result anything relating to Van cats history is also falsified to the absurd. The high frequency of the van patterned semi-long haired cats of the region aroun Lake Van is the evidence that it had been a period in the history of the region that the cats of this type were gathered and bred there. This high frequency preserved even in the time, when Laura Lushington travelled in Turkey both times. When she asked about the semilong haired van patterned cat, the locals replied her that they were Van cats. None of the local people said her that these cats had other color and coat length. Zara-arush (talk) 19:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for Comment

The following seems to me to be the heart of the recent reversions, although I welcome input from both of the involved parties. There is a dispute whether this page should be named in accord with the official naming of the breed as per at least one officially recognized cat organization, or whether the name of the article should be applied in this instance in accord with what seems to perhaps be unofficial Turkish convention for a broader grouping of cats. So, again, in my eyes, the argument seems to be based on the two following points:
(1) Should the article be named to reflect the official usage of a prominent cat breeding organization, or should the article reflect what is perhaps common usage in Turkey, and
(2) is the text supplied relating to the breed and/or the broader grouping of cats known by that name, specifically regarding the history of the name and the breed, accurate and relevant?
Again, if I have misstated either position, I welcome correction. Badbilltucker 01:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

There should be two pages, one for the "Turkish Van", one for the "Van cat", and each page should be named accordingly. The problem is what the content of the "Turkish Van" page should contain. The "Turkish Van is a recognised (and recognisable) breed. However, its breeders and owners do seek to make a connection between it and the Van cat, and, as we see, some of them are somewhat fanatical about it. Pschemp seems to want to have it both ways - she refuses to have any mention of Van cats where it points out the clear differences between them and "Turkish Vans", yet she wants to appropriate the substantial history of the Van cat and assign it to the Turkish Van, and even unjustifiably elaborate on that history. Meowy 01:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

There should be a page for Turkish Van and one for Van Kedisi, which, surprise, we already have. The name Turkish Van is not just the official usage of a prominent cat breeding organisation, it is the name used by every cat showing and registration organisation in the world. In Turkey, the whites and the coloreds run together and are definitely related. However, the Turks only pay attention to the all white cats, while the cats with a small bit of color are ignored. They come from the same breeding stock and run together in the wild. However, this article is focused on the cats with color, exported from Van by two British women and subsequently developed into the breed. I've been to Van, and seen that both types interbreed. But, this article is not about the Turkish street cat, it is about the breed recognised, documented and pedigreed by all the major cat registeries. The historical text is accurate and relevent, but Meowy is insisting that it isn't because she is pushing the native Turkish POV. That is fine, but the Turkish POV is talking about a bunch of street cats, not the registered and pedigreed Turkish Vans. These are now two separate breeds due to man's interference, but they very much share a common origin. There is no doubt what the article should be called, because in English, Turkish Van only refers to this breed. Van Kedisi (or Van Kedi) refers to the all white street cat. Hence the separate articles. I personally have been to Van, I also know the pedigrees of the original cats and all subsequent imports. There are a few all whites in there that were used for genetic diversity when colored one couldn't be found, so the connection is not a mystery. Meowy knows nothing about the breed as it was developed, only her own narrow POV from Turkey. She is welcome to present the views of the native Turks in the Van Kedisi are she wants, but this article is not about the Van Kedisi. Turkish Van isn't even a phrase in Turkish, they use Van Kedisi, which does not translate to Turkish Van, but to Van Cat. Additionally, this link here backs up their ancient Turkish origin. pschemp | talk 02:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Van cat is not a "street cat"! You are displaying complete ignorance. If anything, your "Turkish Van" is a street cat, since it is descended from a pair of unidentified cats that (whatever they were) were not pure-bred Van cats. BTW, I have been to Van dozens of times,and seen hundreds of all-white Van cats - not one of which resembled a "Turkish Van". If you want to make this article only about the Turkish Van, then you should remove all reference to Van cats, including all of the history (since there is no history at all for Turkish Vans that goes beyond the 1950s).

However, the discussion is actually getting interesting. Are the owners of Turkish Vans asserting that the Van cat is actually a mongrel offshoot of the "Turkish Van" that should really be eliminated because it is contaminating the purity of the original breed (the original being the "Turkish Van")? Meowy 02:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you educate yourself with this link. Both breeds are found naturally in Turkey living without human assitance, which is what is meant by street cat. Btw, where are your sources? pschemp | talk 02:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I want to know what you, as the owner of a Turkish Van, have to say in reply to the question at the end of my last post. You seemed to be saying earlier that the "Turkish Van" is actually the true breed. I want clarification of your position. Meowy 02:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Your question is irrelevant, bizzare twisting of my words. I guess this means you don't have sources. Too bad WP:VERIFY is a policy then. Here's another one I have. Oh and here they are listed as separate breeds due to the difference in color. Oh and here is the article you claim I was making up here written by a Turk no less. (Information on the original publisher , Turcoman International, can be seen here the magazine is now defunct, but it doesn't invalidate it as a source.) "Investigation has shown relics of an ancient battle during the occupation of Armenia by the Romans included armor and banners displaying an image of a large white cat with rings on its tail." And here is shows they are related "In its homeland, the favoured cat is the all-white Van Kedi with one blue and one yellow eye; these are considered to be very good luck and among the few domestic animals kept as pets...Interestingly enough, it is the marked - and not the white - Van cat that has made a name for the breed outside of Turkey. This was due to the fact that the cats brought to Britain in 1955 and almost all of the Vans descended from them were not white, but head-and-tail marked" pschemp | talk 02:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding my question, it was very relevant to try and throw some light on where you are coming from. Meowy 03:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm coming from the position of sourced information. Where are you coming from? pschemp | talk 03:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

The answer here is simple. Meowy needs to stop removing sourced information from Turkish Van. Turkish Van should stay at its present title, with its history section which is backed by a number of sources. Van Kedisi should be where the Turkish idea of a cat from Van airs its views. Since these article already exist in their proper places, with proper information, there is little to address other than Meowy wrongly accusing me of inserting fake information and accusing me of "Falsifying history for financial gain." Such lovely behaviour. pschemp | talk 03:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As an outsider, it seems to me that the most likely guideline which is relevant in this case is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna). To quote that page directly:

...beware of informal common names. Many species have multiple common names; however, only one of these is usually recognised as formally correct. For example, the Southern Boobook is known in various parts of the world as "ruru", "mopoke", "morepork", "boobook", "New Zealand Owl", "Tasmanian Spotted Owl", and so on. Create redirects from these colloquial names, but place the main entry under the official common name — in this case, "Southern Boobook".

There is a difference between a breed of cat and a species of cat. Van Cats and Turkish Vans are not different species, or different names for the same species, they are different breeds. Meowy 20:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The information supplied by Meowy seems to all be related to the common name of the van cats as used in Turkey, common names of the type the above quotation warns us to be wary. Pschemp, on the other hand, has demonstrated that the name "Turkish Van" in the English-speaking world is primarily applied and exclusively officially applied only to the bicolor variety of Turkish cat. While I acknowledge that the similar page in the Turkish or Anatolian languages may well have different content, by wikipedia's guidelines on naming conventions, I cannot see any just cause, based on wikipedia guidelines, for the page not to be about the officially recognized bicolor breed. Now, I also note that there already is a page for Van cat, which is a dismabiguation page with links to both the Turkish Van and the Van Kedisi. It seems to me that the most reasonable way to proceed in this matter, again, in accord with wikipedia guidelines, would be to have the Turkish Van page be reserved for the formally recognized Turkish Van breed, the Van Kedisi page be reserved for the other formally recognized breed, and the Van cat disambiguation page remain as it is, with perhaps a bit more text indicating some of the relevant information Meowy seeks to insert in the current article. Badbilltucker 14:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As a cat lover and outsider that ca me in via the request for comment, I have now read about the dispute. The article "Turkish Van" should be about the western breed with colours. Van Kedisi is about the typically all-white breed of cats in the Van region. The dispute seems mostly about such pointless and hurtful wordings as calling Van Kedesi "street cats". That's not exactly helpful for a debate. --Regebro 17:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Street cats is not a perjorative. All breeds started out as street cats until someone decided to start a documented breeding program. The offense taken is an over-reaction. pschemp | talk 18:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The situation is this:

In 1955 two British women returned from a visit to Turkey with a pair of cats. They had obtained these cats while visiting the Lake Van region. After returning to Britain, they began to claim that the cats were Van cats. Perhaps they actually believed that to be the case. However, the true Van cat is a quite different breed, and has been mentioned in numerous historical accounts about Van. In those sources the cat is explicitly mentioned as being an all-white cat. See, for example, their description in the 1951 article by the famous Kurdish writer Yasar Kemal, which I have placed on the Van Kedisi page.

The pair of cats and their offspring were selectively bred. This eventually resulted in the breed which has been coined a "Turkish Van" becoming a recognised breed of cat for show and breeding purposes in Britain and in America. There is nothing unusual in this - it is the way that many modern breeds of cat have originated.

Unfortunately, owners and breeders of Turkish Vans have continued to maintain that there is a connection between the newly established Turkish Van breed and the far older Van Cat breed. The reason for doing this, apart from not having to admit that a rather basic identification mistake was made back in 1955, seems to be one of self-interest: to give the Turkish Van a longer, more glamorous, and more significant ancestry. This has involved them blatantly appropriating the substantial history of the Van cat, together with an increasing denial of the existence of the true Van cat as a proper breed worthy of any significance. Note how Pschemp dismissed them as mere "street cats" and has also resorted to shades of racism when saying that the Van cat is just a "Turkish idea".

Since the plentiful historical records of Van cats mention that they are all-white cats, advocates of the Turkish Van also seem to have been involved some historical fabrication. This includes the "Hittite jewellery illustrating Turkish Van cats" and the "Roman armour and banners displaying an image of a large white cat" stuff that I have previously objected to. Take for example, the alleged finding of the battle relics by archaeologists. In Turkey, it is obligatory by law for anyone undertaking archaeological work to submit a yearly summary of the results and findings, which is then published in a yearly journal called "Kazı Sunucları Toplantısı". The author of the web-based article cited by Pschemp is unable to cite that journal (or any other academic source) because the "relics" are pure invention.

It may be unwelcome news for Pschemp, but the history of the "Turkish Van" breed does not extend further back than 1955. Also, the Turkish Van has no obvious connection to Van cats beyond the possibility that the pair of 1955 cats had some Van cat characteristics as a result of interbreeding with them.

So, where should this leave the content for this entry?

The entry should cease making false claims about the history of the "Turkish Van", and also cease its unjustifiable appropriation of the history of the Van cat. It should honestly state that though breeders and owners of Turkish Vans claim there is a connection to Van cats, the claim is contentious, there is no provable connection, and that the physical characteristics of Van cats are different from that of the Turkish Van.Meowy 20:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You still haven't produced any sources to back up your point of view. I already cited the quarterly magazine "Turcoman International" and gave its publication information. Yet you still accuse me of making things up. If you do a google search you will find other sites mentioning this magazine and citing its articles. I don't know how I'm supposed to communicate with someone who constantly accuses me of lying in the face of cited evidence of the contrary. pschemp | talk 21:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

I regret to say that it is, as Pschemp indicated above, still impossible to find any justification of Meowy's position, as Meowy is still explicitly not addressing the matter of sources for his/her own position. Nor would any archaeologist say that the absence of definite evidence of a cat of this coloring in the archaeological evidence qualify as evidence in any way. This is particularly true when we consider that the only real conclusive evidence which could ever be generated would be uncorrupted DNA and/or actual fur itself. Meowy's statement regarding "false claims" to the Turkish Van's ancestry clearly indicate that there is reliable, substantial evidence which directly contradicts these "false claims", else they would not be labeled false. I think we are all waiting for this reliable, substantial evidence to be produced. If it is not, then, on the basis of the official policy of Wikipedia:Verifiability, these statements should cease being made. Badbilltucker 22:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Badbilltucker, you seem to have not read (or not understood) anything I have written. It is pschemp, representing a vested interest group in the shape of Turkish Van breeders and owners, that is making the wild claims about the history of the Turkish Van, none of which can be backed up by credible archeological or textual evidence. It is up to her to cite credible sources, something she has not done so far. Citing biased works produced by other Turkish Van breeders and owners is not citing credible sources. Meowy 23:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I fear you are seeing conspiracies and making accusations you can't back up again Meowy. I'm not representing anything but the facts. My sources are credible, in fact the main one wasn't written by a breeder or owner, but a Turk in a quarterly Turkish magazine for English speaking people. You are only claiming they aren't credible because they contradict your claims. Besides, you have no produced no evidence to the contrary. pschemp | talk 02:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And what about the factual accuracy of the article cited? Just because it was written by a Turkish person (imagine that!) and featured in a Turkish magazine that caters to anglophones does not prove anything. Hakob 04:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It proves that it wasn't written by a cat breeder as Meowy claims. It also happens to be backed up by several other sources. I see you equate writing in English with something evil. Nice assumption. pschemp | talk 07:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Something evil? You stated that the Turkish quarterly was for English-speaking people. I just phrased it differently in my reply. I did not use "anglophone" pejoratively, if that is what struck you. Anyway, all we can do now is wait for Meowy to come up with a credible source. Hakob 09:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The academic "status" of that Turkish quarterly can be assessed based on their own words: content must be of Turkish orientation and positive in atmosphere. Destructive or critical articles about internal Turkish affairs not encouraged. Because the article in question has no references or sources mentioned, it is probable that most of the content was lifted directly from one of the numerous "Turkish Van" breeders’ websites. It is the usual route for propaganda production: a publication is printed so that another publication can quote it in order to give otherwise unsustainable statements a veneer of credibility and respectability. Meowy 16:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Another assumption of bad faith you have no proof of. In fact, if you go read breeders sites, you will find nothing there that was supposedly "plagarized" by our author in Turkey. I you still haven't given up on your conspiracy theory. Once again, you'll need some proof that the whole world is out to get you. pschemp | talk 16:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

On the Van kedisi page there is a source from 1951 (which predates the known origin of the "Turkish Van") that explicitly states that Van cats are entirely white. I can find no source that says that in the Lake Van region here were cats that resembled the colouring of the "Turkish Van". Nor, I think, can Pschemp. I think that the catchphrase "swimming cat", appropriated by Turkish Van breeders, originates in a 1950s travel book by Freya Stark. I read it about a decade ago but don't have access to that book at the moment to check: it would be interesting to know how she described the physical appearance of those cats.Meowy 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and some Van cats are totally white. The locals ignore the rest of them because they aren't "lucky." Doesn't mean the colored ones don't exist, or that the colored ones aren't Turkish Vans. The two types co-exist in Van. pschemp | talk 16:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The "rest of them" are ignored because thay are not pure-bred Van Cats, just in the same way as Turkish Van breeders insist that for a cat to be called a "Turkish Van" it must not have a white tail or all-white head. Are you suggesting now that cats that do have all-white heads are still Turkish Vans, and that the current breed standard for the Turksh Van is wrong? Meowy 17:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I hate to tell you, but there is no such thing as a "pure-bred" cat anywhere. Especially if the cats are running naturally, which many of the van cats are, you have no clue what genetics have been introduced. The only thing that exists are pedigreed cats, who have their complete genetic history recorded from a certain point in time and domestic cats. Van Kedisi haven't had breeding records kept on them, so claims of genetic purity on your part are a bit outlandish. I've always noted that Van Kedisi are not currently, in modern breeding systems, the same thing, but they do share a common ancestry. I know this from the pedigrees of the Turkish Vans. pschemp | talk 17:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. The only thing that exists for certain in Turkish Vans is their pedigree history - a history which dated back no further than 1955. So stop trying to extend its history into "thousands of years"! Before 1955, there are only references to Van Cats, references which describe a very different animal from that which is now known as a Turkish Van (for example, Yaşar Kemal's 1951 description: "The Van cat is quite large and milky white and when curled up you take it for a heap of cotton, so white is it". Also, and equally importantly, the references after 1955 still only mention the all-white cats as being Van Cats. Nothing at all about ring-tailed cats. Obviously there were, and still are, plenty of cats living in the Van region that are not "Van Cats" in the sense that they do not have the distinguishing characteristics that make up what is considered to be a Van Cat. Meowy 20:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Since you are presenting the same old incorrect and quite tired arguments, I'm not going to bother to respond. Both colors live and have lived in the region for thousands of years, and share history. Period. pschemp | talk 23:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 3

The standards of verifiability are such that this published source in a magazine which is presumably (I don't know the magazine myself) generally perceived as not being explicitly biased in favor of Turkish Van cats by an author whose own credentials have not been similarly challenged is sufficient for verification. However, I could see a challenge to this source if sufficient external evidence could be pointed to which supports the contention that it is biased as per the above. In any event, Pschemp has seemingly provided the verification required for the inclusion of the material she has included, barring some challenge of bias as specified above. And I again note that Meowy is explicitly and pointedly refusing to assume good faith and seems, based on the above statement, at least to me, to be accusing Pschemp of being part of some sort of conspiracy on the behalf of all the breeds, breed registries, etc., to create a false background for this breed. Again, the standards of verifiability in this case almost certainly do not include producing archaeological evidence to support the existence of the cat in early ages, particularly considering that sufficient evidence of that typewould probably be impossible to verifiably produce anyway. The reference above to cat with the striped tail is historical, and can reasonably be seen as sufficient, unless specific evidence is produced to counterindicate it. Also, the pronounced similarities of the Turkish Van and the Van cat breeds/types/whatever (body type, general hair color and type, etc.), is probably enough in and of itself to be seen as being as being at the very least sufficient evidence that there is a proximate mutual ancestor, or possibly one a descendant of the other. On the basis of that seemingly implicit but understandable assumption by the breeders and breed associations, it is reasonable to provide information linking the Turkish Van to the Van breed. At this point, Pschemp has met the requirements, so far as I can determine, of verifiability. Meowy's statement that the producers of the archaeological evidence were "unable" to provide government documentation seems to me to be unsupported by the evidence. The possibility exists that either they or the editors did not include that information, or that it was removed as irrelevant somewhere down the line. Unless I can see that directly contradictory evidence is supplied, we would have to assume that the publisher, which seems to be reputable, was acting reputably. It would again seem to imply some sort of collusion or conspiracy to imagine otherwise. I myself would love to see some documentation which indicates the genetic similarity and/or differences of the two cats for evidence, but for all I know it may not exist. The burden of proof now would seem to lie with Meowy to produce some creditable source which supports the position that the Turkish Van is not sufficiently closely genetically linked to the Van cat of Turkey for information on the relationship to the Van cat to be included. Until and unless such evidence is produced, I believe that we would have to, assuming good faith, accept that the existence of a genetic relationship between the Turkish Van and the Van cat is sufficiently well founded for at least some such information can justifiably be included. And I very much hope that the persistant unproven, speculative accusations regarding the charcter of the other side in this dispute, which at least border on personal attacks, cease, as repeated personal attacks are sufficient cause for the banning of a user. Badbilltucker 15:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No genetic relationship between the Turkish Van and the Van Cat has been proved. In fact, the exact opposite is suggested from the physical evidence and textual historical evidence available. What seems to have happened is that back in 1955 a pair of anonymous cats (possibly with some Van Cat ancestry) was misidentified as being pure-bred Van Cats. The descendants of those cats are still being misrepresented as being Van Cats. The history cultural significance of the real Van Cat is being appropriated by breeders of the Turkish Van for their own ends: to give a longer, more glamorous, and more significant ancestry to the newly-established Turkish Van breed. Given that the real Van Cat is now an endangered breed in its homeland, this misinformation spread by Turkish Van breeders could have a significant negative impact on the chances of its long-term survival.

Readers of the earlier entries to this discussion page will note that Pschemp has said (quoting her own words) that she has "never claimed Turkish Vans are Van Kedis", and that the Van Kedisi is a "separate breed from the the Turkish Van". Following on from that, on the 8th October, I added to the article saying “that the Turkish Van actually differs in many aspects from its supposed ancestor, the Van Cat”. Pschemp did not have any objection to those words at the time (and how could she since they agreed with her own words), yet in December she chose to erase them. Why? Meowy 17:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have also added a RfC in the History and Geography section because it is a concern for the factual basis for the history (not biology) of the Turkish Van that is at the core of the current disagreement. I hope that we can get some comments from historians and archaeologists on the matter. (I don't think that there is a restriction that says that a DfC should be only in one section, but if there is, then may I suggest that it is the RfC entry in the Maths, Science, and Technology section that should be erased.) Meowy 21:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

A genetic relationship is very clearly proved in the pedigree records of this breed. The original cats were not misidentified, they were given by Turkish people to the British ladies while they were in the employ of the Turkish government. And you are still accusing breeders of conspiring, which is quite tiresome. A source talking about all white cats only proves that that is what the Turkish people value, it doesn't disprove that the colored cats were there at all. No one else on this page agrees with you. pschemp | talk 23:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Pschemp continues to come up with wild statements like "Both colors live and have lived in the region for thousands of years, and share history. Period." Yet she has not produced a single source to prove these statements. She also has not been able to produce a quote from anywhere that mentions a breed of cats with "Turkish Van" colours living in the Lake Van region. I, on the other hand, have been able to post quotes that do mention the Van Cat and that explicitly say it is an all-white cat. If there are references anywhere to a breed of ring-tailed cats in the Lake Van region then give them to us.

I have also argued fairly clearly that the supposed archaeological evidence that Pschemp claimed exists cannot be credible (geographical distance of Lake Van from the lands of the Hittites, the fact that not a single Roman-period battlefield site in Armenia has been identified, far less excavated, etc.) Pschemp has not addressed these arguments, beyond her repeated mention of the Turkoman International article – an article that does not give its sources, and whose sources may have come from Turkish Van breeders, and which appeared in a publication of dubious value (quote: "content must be of Turkish orientation and positive in atmosphere. Destructive or critical articles about internal Turkish affairs are not encouraged").

Pschemp - if you want to go around making juvenile comments like "no one else on this page agrees with you" then at least check first. There have been three people commenting since the RfC was posted. One of them was finding offense in your use of the phrase "street cats", one was questioning the value of your Turcoman International source, and one didn't quite understand that there is a difference between a "species" and a "breed". The only person agreeing with you is Badbilltucker, who was here before the RfC was posted, and whose support seems to be based on his reading of Wikipedia procedures rather than providing additional material that would strengthen your position.

Readers should also look over all the previous postings on this discussion page. In them Pschemp is constantly belittling anyone who disagrees with her; where errors in the article have been pointed out she has said that they are unimportant; and she has expressed in both words and actions that she sees this wikipedia entry as her personal article. Meowy 17:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, no one else on this page does agree with you about your conspiracy theories. And that other guy up there thought things should stay the way they are too. If you want to sling the term juvenille around, you might consider your "Falsifying history for financial gain" remark. Enjoy your sour grapes. pschemp | talk 17:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 4

Meowy said above, and I quote, "What seems to have happened is that back in 1955 a pair of anonymous cats (possibly with some Van Cat ancestry) was misidentified as being pure-bred Van Cats. The descendants of those cats are still being misrepresented as being Van Cats. The history cultural significance of the real Van Cat is being appropriated by breeders of the Turkish Van for their own ends: to give a longer, more glamorous, and more significant ancestry to the newly-established Turkish Van breed. Given that the real Van Cat is now an endangered breed in its homeland, this misinformation spread by Turkish Van breeders could have a significant negative impact on the chances of its long-term survival." These statements are explicitly weighed down in POV. Those animals were identified as being the progenitors of the Turkish Van breed, no explicit statement of their being "pure-bred" anything seems to have been implied at the time. This is, by the way, standard among cat breeds, as no one can magically determine the entire lineage of any single living animal, humans included. Nor are they being misrepresentated today as being Van Cats, which isn't an officially recognized breed name in the English language anyway, so there is no formal definition of what is and is not a Van Cat, but as Turkish Van cats, which is a specifically and formally identified breed. Also, Meowy indicates that his/her own position is at least in part due to an existing (if understandable) bias, which qualifies as POV by wikipedia guidelines. While I myself have sympathy for any endangered breed, such sympathy is explicitly POV and not something that an article in wikipedia should in any way be influenced by.

Nowhere in wikipedia do I see any explicit statement of what the Van Cat (with capitals) Meowy repeatedly refers to is. I am assuming that it is the Van Kedesi, but that is at best an assumption, as no explicit evidence has been put forward. I also find Meowy's insistence upon calling into question the editing practices of other parties to be pointless. We are seeking to establish articles based on published, verifiable sources, and calling into question the possible motives of others is completely off-topic, immaterial, and irrelevant. Also, with all due respect, Pschemp saying that she had seen the animals breed in Turkey is also irrelevant, unless she has published those statements elsewhere. Articles in wikipedia are not and should not be about the opinions or actions of editors, but about the available, published, verifiable information. Again, I regret to note that Meowy has yet to put forward any hard information, but instead seems to be reverting to innuendo, insinuation, and allegation, none of which are acceptable reasons to change content. This is not a Perry Mason story and I sincerely doubt we will have anyone involved in this discussion confess to wrongdoing on the stand, which would seem to me to be the only purpose which could be served by such allegations. Wikipedia is not, and cannot be about, trying to find "the truth" about anything on its own. To do so would require original research, which is actually explicitly prohibited. Meowy's repeated insistence upon referring to the "Van Cat" (with capitals), when in English there is no such thing as a formally recognized and named "Van Cat" seems to me to be the crux of this argument. Again, guidelines in wikipedia request that official names be used. Van Cat, in English, is not the official name of anything. The Van Kedisi, which is an officially recognized and named breed, does have its own article. And, while I acknowledge that the naming might be different in other languages and in different parts of the world, that is not a fundamental concern of the English-language wikipedia intended for English-language audiences.

I also just ran a google search on the phrase "Van Cat". The fifth-ranked site, which is also the first one not officially tied to Turkish Van cat groups, is All about Turkey, which itself explicitly states, and I quote the last sentence of the second paragraph, "Despite this all white, odd-eyed Van cat (the famous Kedi), all over the world the Van cat is recognized as an auburn white cat!" Even this site seems to be explicitly granting "Van cat" status to the Turkish Van. Until and unless we are presented with formal, verifiable references to substantiate Meowy's points, it seems to me that we would have to continue the existing status quo, with the separate pages for the Turkish Van, Van Kedesi, and a separate basically disambiguation page for Van cat, as that seems to be the only arrangement which reflects verifiable content. Having said that, I could see maybe including a statement something like "There is also another, roughly similar looking cat from the Van region, also called the Van cat, the Van Kedisi." Badbilltucker 15:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

There used to be one, but it got twisted around and reworded so much by that I removed it. When the protection is lifted, I plan to readd it. pschemp | talk 15:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Erm, Badbilltucker - note the exclamation mark at the end of the sentence you quoted - i.e. "Despite this all white, odd-eyed Van cat (the famous Kedi), all over the world the Van cat is recognized as an auburn white cat!" The author is expressing surprise, and is actually objecting to the fact that, despite all the evidence, the "Turkish Van" is being claimed to be the Van cat by people outside Turkey! Meowy 17:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Further to your end suggestion, that is exactly what I think as well. However Pschemp will object, since she has already objected to any mention that Van Cats are not exactly "similar" to Turkish Vans, and she has erased the link that led to the Van Kedisi page. Whatever the outcome, it should also be stated somewhere on the page that the connection between the Turkish Van and the Van Cat is contentious. BTW, regarding the capitalisation - on all recent English literature I have seen, it is "Van Cat" and not "Van cat".Meowy 17:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Meowy's interpretation of the exclamation point is exactly that, an interpretation. I also note that Pschemp had herself included such a reference as we have all agreed to in a previous draft, seemingly invalidating your point regarding an objection. Lastly, Meowy's statement above that the two are "exactly similar" is incoherent and obviously wrong. They could either be "exactly the same" or "similar", not "exactly similar". And, on a related point, I have just now nominated the Van Kedisi page for inclusion on the front page "Did you know" section, under the current draft, and I hope that no one will endanger the article's prospects by doing any unnecessary editing to it until such time as the article either is displayed or is found to no longer be a candidate for inclusion in the "Did you know..." section. Badbilltucker 18:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Good work. pschemp | talk 19:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

An exclamation point is usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feeling, A sentence ending in an exclamation mark is either an actual exclamation, a command, or is intended to express astonishment. Meowy 22:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

But to assume which specific use is intended is an explicit interpretation. Badbilltucker 17:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 5

I am no cat expert by any means. So I judge based only on what sources are presented. I'm not seeing the sources for Meowy's viewpoint on this matter. It seems clear to me that we should go with what is well sourced. If at some point some sources are presented for other views, then the article should discuss that there is some controversy, present the sources and let the reader decide. But we cannot and should not go with every version that someone puts forth, essentially unsourced. Support keeping the article statements essentially as they were before Meowy raised this. Further I would counsel Meowy that our work here goes best when we all remain civil. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

But Pschemp does not wish the article to admit that there is some controversy. She erased (after it had been there for several months) the sentence that said the Turkish Van differs in many aspects from its supposed ancestor, the Van Cat, and on the Van Kedisi page she has repeatedly erased the sentence "the connection between the Van Cat and the Turkish Van breed of cat is a subject of discussion and disagreement". That there is discussion and disagreement is self-evident. That there is a visual difference between the two types of cat is self-evident. That rather important "!" in the webpage cited by Badbilltucker is an example of that disagreement - in which the inhabitants of the Van region disagree with the claim that Turkish Vans are Van Cats. Are indigenous people to be disenfranchised from their own fauna because it is to the advantage of some cat breeders? Also, Badbilltucker has, for some unstated reason, on the Van Kedisi page, erased all the historical quotes that mentioned Van Cats as being white (and thus, by implication, not Turkish Vans).

The reason the quotes were erased was because (1) they are fundamentally redundant to the article and overemphasize the history of the cat to other aspects and (2) they themselves express a point of view, and it strikes me that it might be a "back-door" attempt at reinserting obvious POV. Also, in the sources I added, there are specific instances of photos of Van Kedisi which are not pure white, thus making it clear in the modern usage that it is an erroneous statement to indicate that they are pure white. However, now that the article has been removed from the Did You Know candidates page on the basis of the challenges to the text, I don't think anyone will have any real objection to their remaining, as the page is now no longer a candidate for any external recognition. Badbilltucker 15:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. If the claims aren't verifiable, there is no verifiable controversy and they should not remain. ++Lar: t/c 17:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

In an objective sense, I agree with Lar. But, having reviewed the photo in question of what appears to be a multicolor van cat but is not explicitly and pointedly captioned in the article as being a Van Kedisi, I get the impression that a challenge could be raised that the photo is not that of a Van Kedisi, and that it is thus not eligible evidence. I would love it if I had more objective sources in a language I could understand about the subject, but I don't, and, on that basis, cannot state with any absolute certainty that the repeated insistence on the breed being officially "pure white" is a false one, at least in part because I can find no official reference to any sort of officially recognized breed to whose work I could refer. Badbilltucker 17:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)A source has now been added to the Van Kedisi page stating that the people of Turkey do not exclusively identify the pure-white cat as being the only Van Kedisi, and, on that basis, the content of the article has been changed to agree with the existing sources. Badbilltucker 20:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

That source, [[3]] which is without any references or even a author, should not be a citeable, verifiable source by anyone's standard. Meowy 01:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you're right. Thank you for having pointed that out. It is still, however, a source regarding the subject, something which has been sorely lacking regarding the subject to date. Badbilltucker 01:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I still hope that some proper historians or archaeologists might come and give their expert opinion on the veracity of the archeological evidence cited in the Turcoman International article. If not - then keep that reference on the page and I will in a future date contact some of the published experts in the field and ask them to comment.Meowy 22:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"That there is discussion and disagreement is self-evident."... well, in my view it is not self evident. That WE disagree does not mean that there is an actual recognised controversy. For that to be the case you need sources, citeable, verifiable sources (review WP:CITE and WP:Vif you have to), which in my view have not been supplied. I may have missed something, if you can point me to a diff where verifiable citable sources were added to the article that owuld be good. Otherwise I don't think you've made the case for controversy. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 01:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand and accept your point Lar. It's annoying to me to know that there are sources, in media produced in Turkey and in Van, that would clearly indicate that there is a lot of annoyance and offense felt locally in Van about the appropriation of the words "Van Cat" by breeders and owners of the "Turkish Vans", but which I cannot cite since I do not have access to them just now. Also, unfortunately, most of the expression of that offense is conveyed verbally, and is not written down. You can get some idea of it from the early contributions to this Talk page, and that significant "!".

The unverified "evidence" presented on Turkish Van websites about there being archaeological finds proving that Turkish Vans have been around for 1000s of years are just laughable nonsense to anyone who knows the archaeology and history of Armenia. But I know enough about that archeology and history of Armenia to also know that there will be no sources around to disprove such stuff. What academic would spend time dismissing it - it would, for them, be like a geographer spending time disproving statements that the earth is flat. It is unfortunate that there is no place in Wikipedia for commonsense to have some weight against unverified statements from vested interest groups. Meowy 01:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

On this webpage [[4]], there a clear differentiation made between "Turkish Vans" and Van Cats (Van Kedisi). The all-white cats are all described as "Turkish Vankedisi", and imported from Turkey. There are no imported cats listed with "Turkish Van" colours. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Meowy (talk • contribs) 01:58, 10 December 2006

(UTC).

True, but that page is unfortunately unsourced and unverifiable. Also, it does not provide a reason why that differentiation is made. You had said earlier that you regreted the lack of a citable source for your argument. It is possible that you could yourself create such a source (or request someone else create it), based on the information you have given above, by writing an article or asking someone to write an article for inclusion in a reputable magazine whose scope would include this subject. Such an article would certainly qualify as a source, were it to be published in a reputable magazine and provide verification of any claims it would make. Without some such verification, however universal the emotion you stated above is held, it cannot be included, as there is no published, verifiable source available (or cited) yet. Badbilltucker 02:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

And every webpage cited by Pschemp is also unsourced and unverifiable! And most are just recycling the same information - some with curious additions: for example, I found one that changed the reference to Turkish Van cats on Hittite jewelery to Turkish Van cats on Urartian stone reliefs (which is rather like changing Egyptians for Assyrians). BTW, that page [[5]] I found as a link in the [[6]] website that you, earlier, seemed to value. Meowy 02:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

While that may be true, the various breed clubs are generally accepted as a reliable source in and of themselves, and are as such not required to provide additional sources. Much the same as the Office of the White House is considered an acceptable source for the history of the Oval Office, the fact that the data is from them, who are counted as a reliable source, is in and of itself sufficient. I am not necessarily saying that I believe that they should be, but they are by and large the ones most likely to have the accurate information. Yes, as we all remember from Watergate and Monicagate, they can lie, and are occasionally found to do so, but it generally takes an incredible amount of effort to impugn what is generally considered a reliable source, and they will generally be considered to be one until and unless such evidence is forthcoming. Badbilltucker 14:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Mistranslation of "Turkish Van"

The Turkish "Van Kedisi" and the Armenian "Վանա կատու" do not translate as "Turkish Van".Meowy 17:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope. They translate as van cat. Perfectly acceptable. pschemp | talk 17:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - they translate as "Van cat", not "Turkish Van". Meowy 17:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So what's your problem? That's the Turkish and Armenian words for the breed. We already established that your claims about these not being van cats were wrong and unsupported in the request for comment up there. Therefore, removing the information is 1. incorrect and 2. it was put there by people who are Turkish and Armenian. So obviously other people don't agree with you. pschemp | talk 18:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"Van Kedisi" and "Վանա կատու" are not the Turkish and Armenian words for the breed of cat known as a "Turkish Van". Meowy 18:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Only according to you. The Turkish and Armenian editors who put them there happened to think they are. As do many other people. It is obvious that this is your little revenge since the RFC didn't go your way. How dull. pschemp | talk 18:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

First off: cease your offensive personal attacks, typified by your use of phrases like "what's your problem", "your little revenge", "how dull". Secondly, do you own unique, one-off Turkish and Armenian dictionaries with word meanings that are different in any other dictionaries? Must be the case, since how else can you say that "Turkish Van" translates to "Van kedisi". Meowy 20:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that they translate on a one to one correlational basis. The article doesn't claim that either. That's simply what the cats are called. pschemp | talk 03:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"Turkish Van" is the name of this entry. Turkish Van is a breed ot cat - the breed is not called a "Van Kedisi" it is called a Turkish Van! Meowy 10:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Out of morbid curiosity (having just spent an hour or so reading the above statements), I looked up "Turkish Van" and "Van Kedisi" on the EBSCO host academic journal index and found four articles, all from the Turkish Journal of Veterinary and Animal Sciences. A journal article published in 2003 from the Department of Physiology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Kirikkale, Turkey titled, "Blood Type A and B Frequencies in Turkish Van and Angora Cats in Turkey" briefly discussed the history of the breed. The introduction states Turkish Vans "can be traced back to Eastern Turkey and Lake Van (only voluntarily swimming domestic cats breed)...Apparently Turkish Van and Angora cats have been used in the development of other modern breeds and are distributed throughout the world." Further study was suggested to isolate a genetic link between the Turkish Vans and Angoras. The article only detailed the eye color patterns of the breeds, so no mention was made either way about fur coloration I guess its interesting to note that the faculty from a research university in Turkey would refer to any cat as "Turkish Van" considering everything posted above points to native Turks never using this term for native cats. Searching under "Turkish Van" elicited articles refering to cats only by that name; a "Van Kedisi" search found articles that used both "Van Cat" and "Turkish Van cat", so maybe these terms are more interchangable that previously thought. Ansiosalaich 23:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Siosal

When translating cat or dog breed names, remember that the native, geographical, and breeder names sometimes are contained in the dog or cat name and are interchangable such as: Persian(cat), Siamese(cat), Angora(cat), German (shepherd), Dachshund (hound), Pinscher(pincher dogs), Weimaraner (after a german duke), Maine(cat), Shar-pei (chinese for shark skin?), Saluki(hound), Afghan(hound) etc. Also, there maybe different English names for the breeds however the oficial name should be left up to the AKC or Cat Fancier Clubs for English Wikipedia, and the native version as the secondary. In this case, it would be "Turkish Van (Van kedisi)" - and the rest of the article. I am confused to as what purpose the Armenian translation serves? There seems to be no connection on the official cat fanciers website. [[7]] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.216.11.5 (talk) 15:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

The Armenian translation is there so that this article can justify the appropriation of the Turkish "translation" of Van cat (Van Kedisi) for the Turkish Van breed. Of course, neither translation should be there because the Turkish Van is not directly related to the Van cat, whether it is written in Arnenian or Turkish! Meowy 14:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Roman shield, pennant, battle in Armenia, etc.

Not one whit of this is true; see for example this discussion on the Roman Army list (many of the participants are experts) — and note in particular that (a) no Roman battlefield in Armenia has been identified, far less excavated; (b) only a single Roman banner (vexillum) is known, and it's not from Armenia; (c) nobody knows of any Roman shield with a cat on it. This last is a negative, of course, thus impossible to prove; but considering that the tale of the cat, the shield, the Roman banner, the battle, all of this is vague and urban-legend-like, the burden is on the perpetrator of the story to substantiate it. I'm not editing because all that will do is start the famous ickypedian silliness of a revert war: but if someone cares about the accuracy of these articles, then someone should get rid of the nonsense in them. Bill 13:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The cats aren't just from Armenia. pschemp | talk 05:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

??? I don't care whether the cats are from, that doesn't address "...relics of an ancient battle during the occupation of Armenia by the Romans included armor and banners displaying an image of a large white cat with rings on its tail." Bill 12:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I know exactly how you feel, Bill. I tried to make exactly the same points! But it is pointless to discuss the subject with people who have a vested interest in maintaining the lack of truth within this Wikipedia entry, and who have a Wikipedia status to make that maintenance easy. However, what all the the Roman shield, pennant, battle in Armenia stuff reveals is the basic bad faith within the numerous "Turkish Van" websites - websites which are cited by pschemp as suporting her position. Meowy 14:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

As an unbiased reader with no real stake in the argument either way, I have to agree. The history thing looks pretty bogus. And the source is from a site dedicated to the Turkish Van breed (as opposed to a site dedicated to Roman history). I think the Roman standards and jewelry thing is apocryphal at best. Please remove it or find a more credible source for support. This article will never make feature status as is. Sorry, but even if this unbelievable claim is somehow true, it is going to take more compelling sources than are currently present to get past the general public's bias toward "common sense". Unless someone gets involved and addresses this one way or the other, I will do this edit myself in a month's time or so (with the result probably being the removal of the apocrypha).Jpwrunyan 18:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Do the editing if you wish - but pschemp will just revert it again. Remember, a Wikipedia administrator always trumps an ordinary user, even if the administrator is ignorant and the ordinary user knows ActionScript! Meowy 22:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Jpwrunyan hasn't done the edit he proposed doing, so I have now done it. Meowy 23:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

'Vans as Pets' section unencylopedic

Needs rewrite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.70.238 (talk) 10:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Double

There is a second article about the Turkish Van. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Kedisi --91.35.147.59 (talk) 09:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not the same animal. Meowy 21:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Cats portal

A summary of this article appears on a rotational basis in Portal:Cats under the "Selected breed" section. Any improvement to this article's lead section should be copied to the relevant entry on Portal:Cats/Selected_breed. --165.21.154.90 (talk) 06:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Breed or pedigree

Is the Turkish Van a domestic breed of the Lake Van region or is it a breed descended from two domestic Lake Van cat? Can a term coined in 1985[8] be used to refer to a domestic breed that existed way before that? What would a domestic Lake Van cat that doesn't meet the breed standard of the Turkish Van be called? The same question can be asked of the Norwegian Forest Cat, Siamese, Singapura and many others. A distinction has to be made between the animal as it has been and as it is in its natural state, and the animal as defined in cat fancy terms. See the Beagle article for a good idea on how it can be done. --165.21.154.94 (talk) 09:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Turkish Van is a breed descended from two cats that originated in Turkey, at least one of which may have been a (Lake) Van cat. As far as "Turkish Van" breeders are concerned, a domestic Van cat that doesn't meet the breed standard of the Turkish Van would be called to be first in line for the lethal injection (or called "street cats" as one "Turkish Van" owner characterised Van cats in this very talk page). Meowy 02:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think any Turkish Van breeder would want to see cats that don't meet the standard "be first in line for the lethal injection." That's an unqualified and unfair statement. "Street cat" is just one of many ways to refer to unpedigreed cats. While the term itself is not very glamorous ("native" or "undocumented" might be better), there is a difference between cats from the random population and cats whose lineage has been documented for generations. --Satcat27 (talk) 05:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The concept of cat breeds has not existed nearly as long as that of dog breeds. Unlike dogs, the different cat breeds do not have dramatic differences in size and structure. Any cat that is not registered and documented as a certain breed is just a domestic cat. The only thing that sets a breed apart is the fact that it has been documented as such. Lake Van cats that do not fit the Turkish Van standard are not Turkish Vans. A Van Kedi is not a Turkish Van. A Turkish Van is a cat that has papers that state it is a Turkish Van. Those papers prove that the cat descended from Turkish cats of a similar type. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.110.141 (talk) 03:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, so let's remove most of the references to Van cats in this article. This article is about the "Turkish Van", a "Turkish Van" is a cat which has a known pedigree which allows it to be called a "Turksh Van". Cat breeders do not breed cats that have no saleable value - so cats that do not meet the exacting breed standards will not be kept and will generally be killed rather than given away. Meowy 21:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Where in the world are you getting your information on cat breeders? I am curious, because I have never, ever heard of a breeder who killed one of their cats just because they did not fit the standard. Cats that do not fit the standard are neutered/spayed and placed in a pet home. Depending on the breed, it could even be at cost to the breeder. Just because a cat cannot be used in a breeding program does not mean that they lack the intrinsic value that every cat posesses.There are some breeds where only a fraction of each litter produced ever fits the standard; Scottish Folds with upright ears and Manx cats with tails. These cats find happy homes as pets. People breed cats because they love cats. Many breeders are involved in cat rescue. Nobody in the cat fancy wants to see a cat killed just because it doesn't fit a standard. --Satcat27 (talk) 05:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Unable to locate the quoted book

Unfortunately I am unable to locate the book quoted three times in the article: Van Kedisi, by Dr. Fuat ODABASIOGLU, University of Veterinary Medicine Fakultesi, Van, Turkey, ISBN 975-97226-0-7. I tried both international book catalogues and the turkish university libraries, none of those giving a single hit on the ISBN search. Can someone verify (and/or) correct the reference? 134.96.220.136 (talk) 10:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I found an entry here. --Dodo bird (talk) 11:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! 134.96.220.136 (talk) 08:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It exists, but it is a hard to find book - I searched for it without luck in about every bookshop in Ankara last summer. It's author is now living in Izmir, I've been told. Meowy 02:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

History of Turkish Van as a Breed

I have removed the paragraph that showboats those who helped to establish the breed in TICA in the US. The Turkish Van is found all over the world and this article is accessed by a global audience. It is not appropriate to talk about the accomplishments of one specific breeder in one specific registry without giving credit to other breeders and talking about the breed's history in other registries. As many breeders would wish to see their names in the article, it would be best to leave out any and all breeder's names with the exception of those who originally established the breed. --Satcat27 (talk) 17:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

If it is possible, I may be helpful in editing of the content of the article about Turkish Van cat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zara-arush (talk • contribs) 15:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Style of text

Irritating! Many boasts and Peacock words such as:

The coat is the most fascinating trait on this cat.

(Can I please get my feelings to myself in an encyclopedia?)

Turkish Vans are very intelligent, and will easily take over their home and owners

(Oh, that smart! (?) Or, ... not.) ... said: Rursus (bork²) 08:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe smart compared to their owners (if they believe they actually own a genuine Van cat). Meowy 03:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is for the breed "Turkish Van" and not the Van Cat. There is already another article for the Van Cat as great lengths have been made to distinguish the two types of cat.Satcat27 (talk) 16:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

And great lengths are made by "Turkish Van" breeders and deluded owners to confuse the situation and imply that they are one and the same type of cat. Meowy 16:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge Van Kedisi with Turkish Van

Van Kedisi is simply the Turkish name for this breed. Also Turkish Vankedisi should be merged in; it does not have enough body to stand on its own as an article.  --Lambiam 09:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

"Van kedisi" is translated as "the cat of Van (locality, lake, etc), similar as "Ankara kedisi" is for "the cat of the city of Ankara". It may mean any cat of the locality. At the same time you know that it is impossible to breed only odd-eyed cats, as well as all-whites, and the length of hair may vary. The cats of Van house also differ in their body built. And who may say, where did disappear Van kedisi-s of black color or with white spotting and those with the color of eyes that differs from odd-eyes. Also please explain, because I may not find the answer, how may we understand, where is a Van kedisi and where is Ankara kedisi, and where is Anadolu kedisi, they all shall be odd-eyed and all-white and there is no exact difference in body type between those that are bred in the Zoos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.40.251 (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

"The cat of Van" in Turkish would be Van'ın kedisi and not Van kedisi. Of course not all Van cats are odd-eyed. They are valued (by some) more if they are. From the article Van kedisi in the Turkish Wikipedia: "The eye colours of the Turkish Van can be divided into three groups. They can be grouped into: both eyes blue (always turquoise blue); both eyes amber (yellow colors and tones, very rarely brown); and odd-eyed (dischromatopsy: one eye blue, the other amber)." [my translation] In Turkey the coat tends to be all-white with some auburn, although kittens often have some darker spots that disappear as they mature. Abroad some colour patterns are considered acceptable that are not considered authentic in Turkey, possibly indicating some other stock has been mixed in, but all considered this is a marginal issue not justifying separate articles. The appearance of the typical Van is rather different from the typical Angora, and in practice they are easily distinguished; it may be more difficult to describe the difference in words. Also, Vans love water while Angoras, like most cats, don't. See also this description of this breed (endangered in Turkey) from the Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism and another description on another Turkish website; note how the last uses "Turkish Van" and "Van cat" as interchangeable synonyms.

Were your comments meant as being in favour of or against the merge proposals? That was not fully clear to me from what you wrote.  --Lambiam 17:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do some people want to merge the article of Turkish Van cat - a pedigree feline breed, and the article about Van'in kedisi? It is obvious that those, who are fond of the all-white Van'in kedisi do not recognize as Van cats the pedigree van-patterned TUVs. The fanciers of Van'in kedisi are free to develop their beloved breed in accordqnce with their tastes and understanding of cat genetics. So, these two article shall stay seperately and I offer to enter in the articles more explanations about the deferences in these two seperate breeds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zara-arush (talk • contribs) 14:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

What would be really great is if you could enter in the articles more references to reliable sources for statements that these are separate breeds.  --Lambiam 07:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

This offer shall be addressed to geneticists. There are 2 pedigree breeds, recognized by CFA, and the population of random-bred cats that exist in modern Turkey and neighboring countries.--Zara-arush (talk) 00:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

"See also this description of this breed (endangered in Turkey) from the Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism and another description on another Turkish website; note how the last uses "Turkish Van" and "Van cat" as interchangeable synonyms". Yes, he uses, but under TUV and Van kedisi and Van cat he meant all-white semi-longhaired or short-haired cat the breeding of which is sponsored by Turkish Government in Van House. If they consider van patterned TUV the same Van kedisi, where do they keep van patterned van cats, as well as all other colors? What is the standard Van House is breeding Van cat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.41.130 (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC) --Zara-arush (talk) 19:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Ancient breed or ancient population of cats?

If we speak about a breed we shall name it under the name it is entered into a registry and describe it as it is described in its standard. A cat fancy club or registry deals only with those cats (the same is with dogs and other pedigreed domestic animals) that have 5+ generations of registered cats that correspond to the standard of the breed.

A random bred cat population of any locality (for instance cats of Ankara or cats of Van or cats of Anatolia, etc) are usually name after the locality they reside. I do not have nothing against Van Cat House and its Director and others, who really love their pets and do their best to produce as many all-white cats, as possible. We shall only keep in mind that there are such scientific disciplines as genetics and genomics, as well as evolution theory and animal domestication that do not develop according to the best intentions of Turkish researchers, who try to find out, why a cat may have odd eyes and what is the relation among cat odd eyes and cats' diet, but these disciplines develop according their own natural laws, which are studied by academic sciences, and the studies of feline genetics and genomics are rather successfull, I shall say.

One should just keep in mind that it is not good to mate 2 all-white cats and it is worse when one's breeding program of cats or dogs is totally based on breeding only all-whites. One may not seperately mate all-whites in several generations, and it referes not only to TUVs or TUAs, it refers to any cats, even non-pedigree. It means that the breed of only all-whites may not exist independently without non-all-whites. The same shall be said about the odd eyes. The laws of genetics are not subject to the tastes of a group of humans, who enjoy only odd-eyed all-whites.

Then, we all believe, and the genetic research (mtDNA analysis proved it) that cats of modern Turkey are the oldest population of domestic cats. So, it is logical that the most ancient mutations in the genes of coat color will be in the harmony with their morphologica structure, as a genetics of cat is not so simple and there are joint genes that we shall not forget. The first response to the attempts of any animal domestication is the appearance of the white-spotting on coat. It is the response of a biological organism to domestication. When the geneticists will calcultate the time, when feline coat color genes originated, we we be able to learn, when the white spotting and van pattern had originated.

And I would like to mention here, that TUVs as well as other numerous feline breeds have their specific haplotype, and we shall not permit that their genetic (and phenotipic) uniqueness be lost for the further human generations. They had been the foundation cats for all further cat populations and when the first cat fancy breeds originated, most of them were created on the basis of these cats (though random-bred). And I hope the larger part of the cat fanciers would prefer to have cats with colors and not only all-white. We shall keep and improve, what was created by the hard work of the past cat breeders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zara-arush (talk • contribs) 00:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Zara-arush proposes: "If we speak about a breed we shall name it under the name it is entered into a registry and describe it as it is described in its standard." One problem with this is that not all breeds are entered into a registry. With those breeds that are (such as Turkish Van), another problem is that there are several registries that all have their own standards. The differences may be subtle and not very important, but they are nevertheless real. Wikipedia should not prefer one registry over the others. Rather, we can describe the commonality. For the rest I'm not too sure what the point is that is being made. Is there something wrong with the article as it is now that is being addressed in the above? I don't know what the semantics is of "random bred cat population". Most registries agree in their standards that the Turkish Van is a natural breed.  --Lambiam 21:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

"random bred cat population" in other words - feral cats population and the population of cats, living in human houses, but these cats may go out and mate as they want. They are bred without human control. I guess all in and out whole cats may breed randomly. Zara-arush (talk) 19:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Though there are some differences among the standrads of TUVs, a good TUV remains good TUV for all the registres and organizations, except those, who had mixes of other breeds in their ancestry (Persians, Angoras, even Anatoli, etc.) they will display itself in the offsprings. Recently, I experienced similar situation, when 3 different organizations offered to register a male cat (found somewhere in a city) as a TUV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zara-arush (talk • contribs) 15:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Any breed of animals means that it was created by a group of people or even by one human, and it means the breed was created by the intentional selection and breeding. That is why we speak about domestic animals. A natural breed, in case of the ancient "maternal" group of cats such as cats of modern Turkey that are the offsprings of first domesticated cats, shall be understood as the population of random-bred cats that are the offsprings of the breed that was created some time ago (several centuries or even longer) and that is why the frequency of van pattern and other features specific for the breed is high. As for the differency in the standards of various cat fancy organizations, the organizations shall develop further not only standards, but their understanding of the breed, using the achievements of the modern genetics and breeding. The tendency of making a mix of the mix that was prevailing in the cat breeding shall cede to the new attitude, when the commercial interest is based on good knowledge of the named scientific achievements. If it is possible to test cats for inherited disorders and deseases and even if it is possible to find out, what cats were used in the breeding program and the share of mixes of "foreign" genes, why not to use it for the sake of getting healthy cats and happy owners? I mean, if there had been the inclusion of other breed, belonging to other genetic group (i.e. European - Persian cats) and at the result the offsrpings have matting coat that is a foreign trait for our breed, it is better to make the genetic test and know, if it is worth to have such cat even as a pet. The breeder will exclude such line of the breeding program, and the genotype and phenotype of our breed will not change. If we do not want that most of the breeds will become uniform: all are pointed, all-white, odd-eyed, all-black, etc. (when there is the same set of colors in the largest part of the breeds), we will come to one and the same type of TUV - one that we see on the pics that were taken by Laura Lushington in 1960-ies. I guess the feline genetics that rules the phenotype is more complicated than we know at the present. We may lose what is the main in the swimming cats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.40.251 (talk) 00:17, May 13, 2009 (UTC)

Here are some definitions of "natural breed" found on the Internet:

• "Natural Breed Cats – These cats are distinctive breeds that have evolved over long periods of time through generations of inbreeding. These cats are associated with a specific area or geographic location. This process is termed "breeding true"." Animal-World
• "Natural Breed – A breed that develops due to the geographical and environmental conditions that it is living in and not to any interference of selective breeding." DogTime
• "Natural Breed – A breeds of cat that has developed without the assistance of humans or selective breeding. e.g. Siamese, Abyssinian, Turkish Van, Russian Blue, etc." Cat World
• "Natural breed: Breed without the interference of selective breeding." Cats United International

It should be clear that to call a breed "natural" does not imply or require that the breed developed as the random-bred offspring of an earlier breed that resulted from intentional selective breeding by one or more humans.

Anyways, this talk page is not intended for discussing possible improvements to cat breeding, but for discussing possible improvements to this Wikipedia article. Do you have any suggestions in that direction?  --Lambiam 16:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

A Natural breed, as defined by CFA (Cat Fanciers Association) may only be bred to others of the same breed. It may not be hybridized with other breeds.

Definition of a Breed: http://www.cfa.org/breeds/breed-definition.html

You can see the definitions for established, natural, and hybrid breeds here: www.cfa.org/org/registration-rules.pdf

The Turkish Van breed is a breed of a particular phenotype and genotype whose offspring will only be recognized as members of the Turkish Van breed when they are bred to other cats of the same phenotype and genotype. While some registries may allow them to be bred to all-white cats, this is not the case in the majority of registration associations. Turkish Vans are not the same breed as the Vankedisi, because the Vankedisi is not universally recognized as a Turkish Van. Even the Turkish Government recognizes that they are not the same breed, as they make no effort to protect and preserve the van patterned cats. I argue against the merger of the two breed articles. Satcat27 (talk) 04:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I offer not to join these two articles, because of the above reasons, i.e. Turkish Van cat is a recognized breed with its distinctive features and long history, and Van kedisi is a new breed that is in the process of its formation and it has its own history, fanciers, and its genetics - haplotype differs from the TUV's. They are not one breed: Turkish Van cat is not the same Van kedisi. The major part of Van kedisi are random-bred cats of modern Turkey. The mix of these cats in one breed will ruin the breed and its unique haplotype. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.41.130 (talk) 16:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC) --Zara-arush (talk) 19:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Lambiam had written above: "Anyways, this talk page is not intended for discussing possible improvements to cat breeding, but for discussing possible improvements to this Wikipedia article". Dear Lambiam, if we want to make a good article about TUVs, how shall we improve it, if we do not understand what are the meriats of this breed, if campared with other breeds? What is it so special about this breed that distinguishes Vans? Why there are some breeders and organizations that say that the breed shall not be spoiled by the joint breeding with all-white "Van Kedisi"?

There are 4 breeds: Turkish Angoras, Turkish Vans, Anatoli (breed registered by WCF) and old-type Persians that may be separated from all other breeds, because they originated directly in the region, where the cat was domesticated. All other breeds originated from these cats that shall be considered as "foundation" breeds. For this reason these cats shall not be mixed as with any other cats, so even inside the group. I hope, this discussion is not carried by article writers, but there are breeders and experts, who will agree that what I try to explain here is not a nonsense. And if you will consider that there is some sense in my writings, you will realize how the article about Turkish Van in Wikipedia may be edited and improved. Best wishes to all!--Zara-arush (talk) 18:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit to Breed Standard

Removed phrase "They like swimming" from the end of the breed standard. This is not something that is articulated in any breed standard published by any major registration association. It is also not something that can effectively be evaluated in any contemporary judging format at cat shows. 76.100.110.141 (talk) 03:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Some individual cats that are not TUVs, including ferals, may swim. But TUVs are the only breed that has this skill in general. Another breed that has the similar love for running water and swimming is WCF recognized Anatoli that are recognized as short-haired TUVs, and pedigree TUVs were used in the breeding program before some breeders mixed them with Angora type cats. When the skill of swimming is in the standard, it explains several morphologic traits of TUVs, including bone structure and coat texture. --Zara-arush (talk) 23:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"A large rump spot above the tail is know as the toe boot of Noah because he got tired of the vans playing on the ark and kicked them off early so they learned to swim to spite him". If this legend relates to the explanation of the origin of van pattern in van-patterned pedigree Turkish Van cat, then please remember that this spot above the tail is not observed in all pedigree Turkish Van cats. It is not observed in true bred pedigree Turkish Van cats, because two pedigree van-patterned cats may not produce kittens with the marks that are not within the pattern. And the pattern is colored tail, marks above the eyes, and a small color mark on the shoulder, usually on the left shoulder, because it is the reflection of the genetics of van pattern. The marks on the white in domestic animals that may have white-spotting at the maximum degree (van pattern) are usually located in the left side of the back (on the left shoulder). See the article of Trapezov who studied the location of the sports in white spotting. If you are interested I will give the link to Russian language article and may translate the sentenses, explaning the revealed frequensy. - Zara-arush —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.210.40.251 (talk) 12:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Kurdish controversy

Please read all of what I have to say... I'd much appreciate it.

Kayz. The Naming Controversy section has been deleted numerous times, and I suppose we got into a little edit-war over it. I kept checking here to see if anyone left started a talk about it, sorry for being a little bit... dunno what to call it. Let's please discuss it here (and I do hope you guys don't completely snub me, as I sincerely feel that this controversy is rather important to the image of the breed, since in many people's mind's, when the phrase "Turkish Van" comes up, they think of Kurdish nationalists, including quite a few German cat breeders...). I have seen a number of reasons for deletion, which to me don't make a whole ton of sense... It's either: (a) It doesn't have to do with the cat.

Answer: ...hello? The cat is infamous in certain areas, and has more or less become symbolic of the Kurdish independence question. If the cats mere identity is in part affected by the controversy, I think it has A LOT to do with the cat. Not to mention that its not the first time cat breeds entered into political debate.

(b) Its somehow unsourced.

Answer: I find it funny that this is said, seeing as when it was part of the article, it had almost half the references of the whole page. Given, one of them was an accidental double-sourcing, but still... not to mention that, as I said on teh edit page, one of the sources is a whole site dedicated to the cat.

(c) It has a bias

Answer: so let us TALK about the bias (if there even is one, seeing as all sides were portrayed). It can be IMPROVED, you don't just REMOVE it. >.>

(d)It's insignificant.

Response: First of all, there is plenty of heavily insignificant almost spam-like trivia all over wikipedia pages, and it gets tolerated. I fail to see why this is somehow an exception.

Now, on top of that, I fail to see how "insignificant" it is, seeing as even the -surprise- Kurdish Iraqi President made a reference to the issue. Among the Kurdish community, this is quite common knowledge. If you even search "Kurdish Van" on Google, you come up with tons of results. Some pointing to the controversy, but also many more (I mean, more than the former category) which actually refer to the cat as being Kurdish, calling it the "Kurdish Van" and whatnot.

If we included a whole section on how its often confuzed for the Vankedisi or the distinction between the two blurred-if-even-existent, I really fail to see why this, which is at least equally as much of a name discrepancy should not be included. It's pretty much the same as the Vankedisi thing, except that -tada- its even MORE significant because the breed is immortalized as symbolic of the whole nationalist question.

Now, I suggest three possible compromises/solutions to our little disagreement:

1) We let it be in the article. If huge amounts of space is used for the Vankedisi, I fail to see why the Kurdish issue is somehow omitted. Because unlike the Vankedisi, the Kurdish vs. Turkish thing actually has meaning outside of the simple name discrepancy issue. The cat breed is glorified among Kurds, and whatnot.

2) We take the Vankedisi stuff out AND the leave the Kurdish stuff out. That way we don't have precedent issues.

3) We make a separate article for the controversy and put it in a "see also section", perhaps making a note of it at the top of the article as well with one or two sentences and a link. That way not so much space is taken up by what the anti-inclusion-of-Naming-Controversy section people feel should not be in the article, and the information is still out there, so both sides are happy. This is my favorite of the three, and I think it makes a good compromise, no?

--Yalens (talk) 23:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I consider it is good to discuss here the type of Van cat, as it is seen by the Kurds. Why not? It is a tradition to call the Armenians, who consider Van cats as an Armenian breed, nationalists. The same attitude is towards the Kurds, who also consider Van cats a part of their cultural inheritance. I was critisized for my support of Turkish Van cat as Van patterned and non-all-white in the article published in Germany. But the 30 % of the article was rewritten of my article published in 2 different magazines at that time. I would like to learn what Kurdish people think about the phenotype of Van cat and what are their legends, believes and traditions, relating to Van cat. It is usually omitted in the articles about Van cats. I could not find enough information about it. I will be thankful, if such information will be published here.--Zara-arush (talk) 20:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 20:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

mmm... to be honest, I'm not a Kurd, and even if I was, I couldn't claim to represent a whole 23-million strong ethnic group. Though, from what I've read online, so much of the Kurdish narrative is oppression and partition. They probably, of course, like any other group, had cats, loved them, etc. Noting that their cultural cousins the Persians have been devoted cat fanciers since they emerged as an ethnic group, and that almost all other Iranic-language speaking groups also have the cat as at least a preferred pet, usually being a central part of the culture. So it would be pretty same to assume that before the 2500 years or so of domination and cultural suppression experienced by the Kurds, they, too were avid cat fanciers. Today, still, Kurds are pretty obviously above "average" for cat fancying. However, looking at Kurdish history, they, after being conquered by the Greeks, became a disenfranchised lower class minority group, with the more upward members integrating into whatever rulers ruled them. Generally, cat breeding is usually exclusive to upper or middle class individuals, and in the case of the Kurds, for two and a half millenia, they have been robbed of an upper class, and middle classes were long inexistent. Of course, any breed that they may have "made" (i.e. bred for certain characteristics, etc.), like the Persian made by of course, their cousins the Persians, would still be around. Obviously, it would end up standardized by whoever their overlords were at the time - Turks-, who would take credit for "inventing" the breed.

At least, that's the Kurdish view of the affair. To be honest, I find the Kurdish view most likely (I'm really not familiar with any backing to the Armenian view, since its rarely heard). That's because, well, it goes back to the ancient population or not debate, but either way, they definitely didn't migrate with the Turks all the way from Sinkiang. Their characteristics and genetics go against that. Really, the only reason we call it “Turkish” is because the Turks standardized the breed. You can see why the Kurds would protest at such a thing, since they’ve held the cat as theirs since the beginning of written history. Of course, in my opinion, the concept of one ethnic group or another owning a cat breed is a little… yeah.

As of today, well, the Kurds cherish the breed as theirs, as they’ve always done, as a sort of rebellion against Turks, Arabs or whoever. Since pretty much the whole Kurdish community knows about this whole dispute now (and now that its not only Kurds that espouse the anti-“Turkish” Van viewpoint), many Kurds, especially diaspora Kurds, have tried to reinforce the viewpoint that the cat is Kurdish by using it as an object of Kurdish pride. That is, to be proud of your Kurdish roots, you might want to help with the advancement of the breed. So one could say that its definitely good for the future of the breed that we now have a ton of new eager cat breeders, but then again… Furthermore, I suppose, the breed has become more or less symbolic of the idealogical struggle between Kurds and Turks. --Yalens (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"We take the Vankedisi stuff out AND the leave the Kurdish stuff out. That way we don't have precedent issues." I think it is OK. If someone will be interested in Vankedisi or Kurdish Van cat, they may find the corresponding articles in Wikipedia. The only passage that shall be added to TUV article shall inform that also the Armenian and Kurdish people are fond of this breed and have the name of these cats in their languages, as well as that they consider Van cats the part of their culture.--Zara-arush (talk) 23:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

"I couldn't claim to represent a whole 23-million strong ethnic group." None would ask an individual about it, but if there is Turkish point of view on the phenotype of Van cat i.e. Vankedisi and not any other, I just ask to represent Kurdish idea about the phenotype of Van cat. Do they believe it as Vankedisi or the type of cat that was imported to Britain in 1950-ies, when the Turkish party insisted on the word Turkish in the cat breed name, and all the Turks met by L. Lushington named the cats she liked so much as Van cat - Van kedisi (though these cats were not all-white and odd-eyed).

"its definitely good for the future of the breed that we now have a ton of new eager cat breeders" It may be good, if these new cat fanciers will know what are the differences between TUV and Vankedisi. If they will support the concept of Vankedisi, then it will endanger TUVs for higher degree, because the breed is already endangered, because of Turkish excellent knowledge of breeding programs and feline genetics,as well as general genetic laws and animal domestication, as it is explained in Van House by the Director of this respectful organization. And what is not less important, TUV is not another means to discuss politics and play in political games. We shall speak about the cultural background of how the breed was created by some or several ethnicity, and why they imagined the phenotype of the cat as red and white and van patterned. If this understanding of cat traits had some religious background , we may speak about it also, to understand what the cat symbolized for the ancients, and why they bred only these type cats in Van lake area. And they did, because of the high frequency of this pattern that had preserved there for centuries, before the beginning of 20th century. Only this approoach may be helpful to preserve the breed: van-patterned with specific body structure of a good swimmer and corresponding coat that does not get wet.--Zara-arush (talk) 00:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

So, you'll support me making a new article, then? Should I start it now, or...?--Yalens (talk) 14:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Why not? If we all want to be impartial, all the points of view shall be represented. A good story, related to the history and culture of the etnic group, may be very interesting. TUV is a breed and the local population of so named secondary wild or grown wild cats with specific traits and genotype is worth to be mentioned. They all are within one genetic group, though of different genotypes, and may be haplotypes. I have no information, what the genetic test demonstrated.--Zara-arush (talk) 15:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Domestic or wild cat?

Any domestic animal is the product of breeding, thus its behavior and phenotype (that are explained by their genetics) are the result of artificial selection that is developing along its specific laws. The wild animals are influenced by natural selection and their behavior and phenotype (that are in their turn are explained by their genetics) are the result of natural selection. The mutations and the genes of domestic animals shall be explained by so-named destabilizing selection to the contrary to the mutations in the genes of wild animals and stabilizing selection that they are influenced. Why do we explain the traits of natural breeds with the positions of natural selection. Their phenotype reflects the changes that take place in any species of domestic animals (Mammalia) and are noticed in dogs, foxes, etc. The same relates to Turkish Vans. Why do we explain the form of their heads and bone structure by the influence of natural selection? Yes, the climate influences, but not at such an extent. As any domestic animal their were bred by some humans.--212.73.90.1 (talk) 23:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 23:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The mark of Noah's toe boot or God's finger?

Please write, why the beautiful legend explaining the mark on the left shoulder was changed to such a slighting story? "A large rump spot above the tail is know as the toe boot of Noah because he got tired of the vans playing on the ark and kicked them off early so they learned to swim to spite him".

There are various legends in the East, explaining the creation of domestic cat and its appearance in the Arc. But the most spread tells that the cat or a pair of cats were created by the Allmighty to help Noah to fight against the mice that endangered the Arc. Jewish legend runs that it were cats that escaped Noah's Arc and his family from sinking, because the mice started to make a hole in the Arc. And the other part of this legend explained that the Allmighty blessed the cats for their help to Noah's family, and the red marks on their coat appeared in the places, where the palm of Him touched the cats' coat.

If we want to keep the rules of the forum, why do you humiliate the breed? How do you explain the disrespect to the phenotype of the breed if you say that it was made up by the kick of someones' toe boot, even if it was Noah's boot or toe?--Zara-arush (talk) 00:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 00:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to those, who assisted in editing the legends on cat creation. I added to links there. I remember another author, who had written his own version of the know Jewish legend on how the cat was created, but I failed to find the site. I will be thankful, if a person, who know the author, make the addition.--Zara-arush (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The "Turkish Van" is a breed of cat that originated in breeding pens of US cat breeders the 1960s - as such it can have no genuine "legends" attached to it. I have removed that section from the article. Meowy 16:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Good pictures of Turkish Van cats

I offer to add several high quality pitures of pedigree Turkish Van cats, and delete the pictures of Van Kedisi. I hope TUV bredders of semilong haired TUVs will insert such pictures. The pictures should show the cat standing on its four legs, as well as the head, profile, the tail, the colors, and even cats of different lines. It would be very helpful to explain the difference between TUVs, Van Kedisi, and Anatoli (WCF recognozed SH Vans).--Zara-arush (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Legends about the marks of Van cat

I added some passages to the article about Turkish Van cat. I am the author of these passages, and they are of my articles on Turkish Van cat. If I shall confirm that I did it at my good will, please inform me, and I will send the confirmation e-mail to the address, you mention.--91.210.40.251 (talk) 00:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 00:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Who did "develop" the breed?

"There is also a controversy regarding whether the cat should be referred to as the "Turkish Van", which is largely surrounding the question of whether the breed was really "developed" by Turks, or otherwise by Kurds or Armenians (see respective article)". The Near-eastern wild cat (f. s. lybica) was domesticated 10,000 years ago. The white spotting appears at the coat of homologue animals subjected to the process of domestication at the earliest stages of it as the first reply of organizm to domestication. The white spotting is one of the earliest mutations in cats that originated before the luxory mutations. Any of such mutations took several centuries, if not millennia. The cat were domesticated by some ancient proto- tribes, when they passed to settled life, began to build houses, and went on crop farming. The proto- tribes that did not pass to settled style of life and had no granaries, were not interested in wild cats to domesticate them. Thus, taking into consideration the settled life periodization, and need in rodent hunters, as well as the relatively short time, when the Turks and Kurds passed to settled style of life, these two ethnic groups may not be considered the breeders of archaic domestic cats of any type. It is also confirmed by the lack of the tradition of having cats as house pets, i.e. inside the human dwelling, the evidence of @it being the excellent job, performed in Van Cat House.--Zara-arush (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

To Meowy

"Removing "legend" nonsense - the breed is no older than the 1960s so can have no legitimate legends". The breed has been always characterized as "Natural", and there was a discussion about it here. There are no "natural" breeds of domestic animals, becuase these breeds were created by someone long before us. I again write that the frequency of the pattern in Van Lake area proves that there was some special place (like a temple) that these cats had been gathered and preserved, and bred. It could be only before the Armenians adopted Christianity, when the animals used in pagan cults were not bred. But the cats preserved and they stayed with the local people in their houses (not near the villages). Only people, who warshiped Sun gods could gather in special places Van Cats with the marks corresponding in color to the Sun rise/dawn. And the legends are what preserved to our days of this cult. One legend is Jewish, the other was represented as Turkish. But both the legends add one another. And if you do not believe, put your right hand in the jesture of Armenian blessing on you cat's heat, you will see that the van marks will be in the places, where your hand will touch the cat. --Zara-arush (talk) 20:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

And, historically, Lake Van was thick with Jews, and Turks. Not! The "Turkish Van" breed (with the markings you talk about)is no older than the 1960s. Anything else should go into the Van Cat entry (which is what the Van Kedisi entry needs to be renamed to). But these fancyful modern myths aren't going to make it to there either unless you can come up with legitimate sources that show them to be proper traditions. By legitimate sources I mean proper folkloric studies, not cat fancier magazines. Meowy 20:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

This sort of article is a textbook case for all that is wrong with Wikipedia. It's a case of garbage in garbage out. If all the sources on a subject are, essentially, propagandistic and full of self-seeking lies then what does that make the content of an article on that subject. The equally nonsensical "Roman shield, pennant, battle in Armenia" rubbish took ages to remove because it was in those same sources and those sources needed their credibility intact to support the whole false "Turkish Van" edifice. Meowy 21:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

add the info

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