Talk:Turkish Air Force

Purported Turkish Air Force Pilot Shortage

The current article implies that the Turkish Air Force today still has a combat pilot shortage.

The article does not make any mention of the Agreement entered into between the Turkish Air Force and Turkish Airlines for the return of F-16 pilots who had transitioned into civilian aviation within the 5 years preceding the coup attempt See https://www.airporthaber.com/thy-haberleri/thy-ve-tsk-pilot-gecisleri-icin-protokol-imzaladi.html?fb_comment_id=1372216979520437_1372837482791720.

There are however more than 2,000 ex-military pilots working in the Turkish civil aviation industry. See https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/turkish-airlines-pilots-army-jobs-160823144450818.html

The Agreement between Turkish Airlines and the Turkish Air Force paved the way for the 600 F-16 pilots who transitioned into civilian aviation within the 5 years preceding the coup attempt to return to the air force. See https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/turkish-airlines-pilots-army-jobs-160823144450818.html

Some of these pilots have upwards of 4,000 hours on the F-16. These pilots are also training new air force recruits.

The Turkish Air Force today has more than 800 combat aircraft pilots.

Sabiha GÖKÇEN

Sabiha Gökçen is first ever female Turkish pilot. But also she is the first ever female combat pilot in the world: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/first-female-combat-pilot/

Could we add this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.123.128.176 (talk) 12:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Space program with Ukraine

No one has made mention of the creation of a Joint Turkish-Ukrainian Space Agency for Military use which was announced by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on 26 March 2015. Ukrainian media sources have claimed the program is for space launched weapons. http://www.unian.info/politics/1060458-ukraine-turkey-agree-on-space-program-worth-billions-of-dollars.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.244.121 (talk) 03:12, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Göktürk-2

There is no mention of the Göktürk-2 Earth Observation Satellite and the capacities it brings to the Turkish Air Force. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.130.229 (talk) 06:37, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Warning

Somebody really made a mess of the main equipment section and it looks like a deliberate action. The article is unfortunately not accurate anymore and I will not bother to edit/correct it since I have a feeling that it will be botched again.

Warrior Soul (August 31, 2006)

Main Equipment

This section has been copied from my site (http://warriorsoul.4t.com) without permission. In order to adopt a more constructive way of action than removing the whole table, I simply added a link to my site in the "Sources" section. I am a researcher on the defence industries and accurately keep track of the changes in the inventory. I spend a lot of time and effort on updating the information provided and I am happy to see that a growing number of people are making use of it. However, I would highly appreciate it if people who use the information elsewhere would at least provide a link to my web site as the source. Should you wish to contact me personally, kindly follow the "Contact" link in my site.

Thank you.

Warrior Soul

Second Largest Air Force in NATO after the USAF

The Turkish air force is the second largest in NATO, with more than 1,900 aircraft. Read more: http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Turkey

Please refer this: http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/TR/EnvanterdekiUcaklar.aspx?ID=7. Turkey has more then 2.000 jets/planes. Not 700! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xangr (talk • contribs) 18:33, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

One of the world's greatest Air Forces

US General Norton Allan Schwartz has stated that Turkey has one of the world's greatest air forces, which the US Air Force has a lot in common with.

Read more: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123258689 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.150.241.156 (talk) 06:44, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1394245/Thunderbirds-US-Air-Forces-elite-team-kicks-2011-European-tour.html#ixzz1OTWpVNhk

History

So folks, I am updating this article. Aquilion 18:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The history section is complete. Aquilion 17:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I find the modern translations of Ottoman terms a bit irritating. Why include the translation of "Ministry of War" when the given term is not what the Ottomans used (the correct term is "Harbiye Nezareti")?

It's accurate. Harb means war, -iye forms relation, making it "related to war" and "nezareti" is "ministry" in 1900's terminology, thus making it "Ministry of War". Which term might be accurate?Heruamarth (talk) 15:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

F-5 2000 (under delivery) ??

This article says 46 "F-5 2000 (under delivery)". It appears to mean these are new aircraft that are being delivered now. However, the F-5 Freedom Fighter article says that the aircraft has been out of production since the 1970's. Are these refurbished/upgraded aircraft from another country? --rogerd 03:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

According to some unconfirmed and unnamed Turkish Procurement officials, Turkey is upgrading a further 46 F-5 at Tusas Aerospace Industries premises. In fact, there have also been sightings of F-5's entering the TAI facilities. But no official announcement as of today. Turkey has alot of F-5's in storage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.209.236 (talk) 05:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Old F-5's are being used for training for candidate pilots. They use F-5's for transition from turboprop/piston aircraft to jet aircraft and after completion of these courses, they are transferred to their active duty squadrons to recieve final training on either F-4 or F-16.Heruamarth (talk) 19:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

WPMILHIST Assessment

This article could definitely benefit from in-line citations for the prose content (i.e. the "main section" above the listing of individual aircraft). Nice work on the infobox, btw, and a very nice photo! LordAmeth 14:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Number of Aircraft

Wtf about the aircraft? Who changes 755 to 1944.? And both numbers is not realistic. Its cant be 755 either 1944.This is not real.Please try to find official numbers if you cant just dont write anything.

New Aircraft list

Can we add a new Aircraft list. This is what i came up with but needs fine tuning and fixing.

Type	Origin	Version(s)	In service	Notes
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II	US		0	order for 100 F-35A signed 2007, 2 to be delivered 2018
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon	US	C/D Block 30 C/D Block 40 C/D Block 50 C/D Block 50+	112 103 76 146	under CCIP modernization under CCIP modernization under CCIP modernization 30 more Block 50+ aircraft will be built by TAI(146 in service as of 2018)
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II	US	F-4E 2020 Terminator RF-4E	71 52 32
Northrop F-5	US	A/B 2000	14 55	upgraded by IAI with enhanced capabilities (Turkish Stars Aerobatics Team)
Airbus A400M Atlas	EU		10
Lockheed C-130 Hercules	US	C-130B C-130H	7 6
Transall C-160	France/Germany	C-160T
CASA CN-235	Spain	VIP EW Transport	3 16 31
Boeing 737 AEW&C	US	AEW	4	under construction, option for 2 more.
General Atomics GNAT-750	US	UAV	1
IAI Harpy	Isreal	UAV	107	500 km Range
IAI Heron	Isreal	UAV	40	1000/3300 km Range
TAI Anka	Turkey	UAV	18	1000 km Range
Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker	US		7
Northrop T-38 Talon	US	A	69	Received structural upgrade.
Cessna T-37	US	B C	58	Received structural upgrade.
SIAI-Marchetti SF.260	Italy	D	38
Cessna T-41	US	D	28
AS 532UL Cougar Mk1	France	SAR CSAR	14 6
Bell UH-1H Iroquois	US	SAR EW	15 4
TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK	Italy/Turkey		22	+94 attack helicopters being built

There is already a link on the page to a table that due to the size of the page was split off to its own page, and before posting a coding mess like this, could you please write make sure it works in one of your sandboxes first so it doesn't mess the coding up for everything on the page that comes after? Thanks. - NiD.29 (talk) 08:14, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

weapon inventory list

Air-to-air missiles
314	AIM-120A/B AMRAAM (176 AIM-120A + 138 AIM-120B)
367	AIM-7E Sparrow
0	AIM-9X Sidewinder (+457 (225 + 127 + 105) ordered)
210	AIM-9B Sidewinder
500	AIM-9M Sidewinder
640	AIM-9L/I Sidewinder
310	AIM-9S Sidewinder
750+	AIM-9P3 Sidewinder
Air-to-ground missiles
95	AGM-88B HARM
99	AGM-142 Popeye/Have Nap
0	AGM-84K SLAM-ER (+50 ordered)
0	AGM-154A-1 JSOW Block-II (+50 ordered)
0	AGM-154C JSOW-C / Broach (+54 ordered)
274	AGM-65G1 Maverick IIR
550	AGM-65A/B Maverick
200	GBU 8/B HOBOS
1200	GBU 10/12 Paveway I-II
n/a	CBU 105 Sensor Fuzed Bomb
523	BLU-107 Durandal
n/a	AN/AVQ 23 Pave Spike (laser designation pod for F-4E)
40	AN/AAQ 14 LANTIRN
40	AN/AAQ 13 LANTIRN
0	Litening-III (+22 ordered, option for 20 more)
Anti-aircraft missiles
24	I-Hawk XXI (HAWK-21) (1x3) launchers
72	MIM-14B Nike Hercules
86	Rapier FSB1 (85 launchers updated to Rapier B1X level. 840 additional Mk2B missiles under delivery)
n/a	Zipkin KMS (1x4 FIM-92 mounted Stinger, 32 units under delivery)
108	FIM-92C Stinger RMP

F-16 IFF system related murders in Turkey added

Added a section about the F-16 fighter jet IFF system secret code hacking in Turkey and the three resulting murders of engineers by secret services. This was extensively published in November in the Hurriyet and also reported internationally, e.g. Tarik Demirkan wrote it up for respected hungarian HVG weekly newspaper [1]. 82.131.210.162 09:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

These are not facts, but rather stories fueling the Turkish nationalist pscyhe. The first engineer who committed suicide was a middle aged mechanical engineer, the second one was a classmate of mine in his late twenties, and the third was a fresh graduate who was a close friend of a co-worker. I do not know much about the first person, but the latter two did not knew each other. The second engineer was working at a different company owned partially by Aselsan, not at Aselsan, and he had joined that company only a few months earlier. The third engineer did not have the skill to achieve such reverse engineering. Although it is not clear why these people committed suicide, lack of reasoning should not lead us to conspiracy theories. There are no facts and this section should be removed. Or at least it might be noted that this theory was brought forward in a major Turkish newspaper as opposed the presenting it as fact. 213.139.195.162 (talk) 06:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Air Force

The Tuskish Army has ordered 51 T129 Agusta. Tai are making them.

• Question: Why did Turkey reject the Denel Rooivalk helicopter during trials? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.111.29.1 (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Because it was 'kinda new, unproven, and only South Africa uses it. Performance was another issue. As Army was already operating Ah-1W's and finding their performance satisfying, AH-1Z was chosen. Later on, due to problems on Bell and US, ATAK program's cancelled, and ATAK II's awarded to Agusta Westland, to obtain rights of A-129 Mangusta and completely perform an overhaul to turn it into a better, more powerful and agile helicopter. Program is still underway, we'll see if TAI, ASELSAN and AW can make something thatcan compete with modern choppers or not.Heruamarth (talk) 15:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

They also have: 9 Bell AH-1W Super Cobra 32 Bell AH-1P/S Cobra 1 Bell TAH-1P Cobra (Combat Trainer) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.242.224.212 (talk) 15:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

They are already listed in the Turkish Army inventory, see the article Modern equipment and uniform of the Turkish Army. The Turkish Army operates the attack helicopters, not the Turkish Air Force. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 01:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The TIHA-A UAV has entered service

The TIHA MALE UAV project has been completed and serial production has commenced. 20 units have been commissioned by the Turkish Air Force. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.209.236 (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Nope, its still on tests. You can't call a project as "completed" until it enters inventory.--Cerian (talk) 16:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Drones?

There is no mention of unmanned drones - I don't know enough to write it myself. Jzlcdh (talk) 19:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Zorbey, 18 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change Chief of the Turkish General Staff from İlker Başbuğ to General Işık Koşaner. ZORBeY^ (talk) 14:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Already done -Atmoz (talk) 17:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Airbus A319

Airbus A319

The Turkish govt uses an Airbus A319 (pictured) for VIP flights, and I believe it is part of the Turkish Air force inventory. Could someone investigate this, and update the article accordingly. --Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 17:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

File:TAI Anka A 2010 v2.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Notabilities: Ahmet Ali Çelikten

Should it be mentioned in the Notabilities section that, possilby, the first black pilot was in the Turkish Air Force? (Ottoman at the time) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbsoluTurk1907 (talk • contribs) 08:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

He was the first "black" pilot of the Ottoman Navy Air Service (see: Ahmet Ali Çelikten). Takabeg (talk) 08:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Seal of the Turkish Navy.svg Nominated for Deletion

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Ali_%C3%87elikten

Ahmet Ali Çelikten also known as Arap Ahmet Ali or İzmirli Ahmet Ali (born Izmirli Ali oghlu Ahmed, 1883 – 1969) was the only black pilot in World War I along with Eugene Jacques Bullard. --82.113.122.165 (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

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Turkish Air Force March

Can someone look at incorporating the info on this page and then maybe redirecting or deleting it? Gbawden (talk) 08:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

oldest

Why is there no mention that the Hava Kuvvetleri is one of the oldest air forces in the world? 84.171.90.26 (talk) 17:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2015

In the "Engagements" tab, the link of "War of Independence" directs to the "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_independence" War of Independence list. It should direct to "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_War_of_Independence" which is Turkish War of Independence that Turkish Air Force engaged in. Bgokbayrak (talk) 22:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 23:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove Sabiha as oldest in military history

Per sources given on her article (Sabiha Gökçen) --Irtden (talk) 22:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Flying a bombing mission does not yet make one a fighter pilot, which requires air-to-air combat. (And why remove the information everywhere that Sabiha Gökçen was an adopted daughter of Atatürk?)  --Lambiam 09:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Current Commander of the Turkish Air Force

I only just recently started paying much attention to Turkey, so I was a bit hesitant to make a change to this page, but something very basic has me confused. In the right hand column, Gen. Abidin Ünal is listed as the commander for the Turkish Air Force. I had thought Gen. Akın Öztürk held this position and Gen. Abidin Ünal was commander of Turkey's Air Force Combat and Air Defense (a subdivision, not the entire air force of Turkey).

If not, well, then a couple of well known newspapers need to make a correction. See http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/istanbul-to-host-international-conference-on-air-and-space-power.aspx?pageID=238&nID=80456&NewsCatID=341 for a reference to Gen. Ünal and http://www.todayszaman.com/anasayfa_air-force-to-clip-wings-of-rf-4e-aircraft-top-military-official-says_374919.html for a reference to them both.

I am assuming that either this was just an oversight, or an area where work is still in progress, but if not, could someone explain the discrepancy?

Emerald Evergreen 04:35, 24 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisa Beck (talk • contribs)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2016

Flytouchtosun (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Copypaste of entire article removed

 Not done - As it clearly states in the instructions to submit an edit request:-
"Please don't copy the entire article into the request. If you copy the entire article into the request ... another editor may remove your entire request."
This is not a "spot the difference competition" If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 16:13, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

T-129 is not in TAF inventory

Turkish Air Force doesn't have any attack helicopter. T-129 listed in the helicopter inventory. In Turkey, only Turkish Land Forces (holds the main attack helicopter inventory) and Gendarme have T-129. See official list at TAF official page: https://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/T%C3%BCrk_Hava_Kuvvetleri/Hakk%C4%B1m%C4%B1zda/G%C3%BCn%C3%BCm%C3%BCz_Hava_Kuvvetleri/Envanterdeki_U%C3%A7aklar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obben (talk • contribs) 05:32, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Recent history

The TAF has seen its capacity hit pretty hard since the post-coup purges started in 2016. I'm going to add a section to outline how this happened and what has resulted. Konli17 (talk) 06:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

new info

can somebody add the news about recent acquirements such as [2] and [3] and [4] also a section about air defence and new acquirements such as s400 and hisar. 46.196.85.168 (talk) 08:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Removal of unfactual date

The date 1911 is cited as the foundation date of TAF in this article. However, the article content states that "can trace its origins back to June 1911" and "the air force as it is known today did not come into existence until 1923". which does not support 1911 as a "foundation date". Besides cited source is the official website of Turkish Armed Forces which is not reliable source in this context. You can look at the talk pages of the articles Turkish Naval Forces and Turkish Land Forces for similar cases. Best regards.--V. E. (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2022

Turkish Air Force Commander is changed and the name of the new commander is Atilla Gülan. Mboruza (talk) 11:58, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. RealAspects (talk) 03:51, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

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Redundant content removal

I removed content from redundant section called "Timeline of battles and operations". Was not able to find similar section in any of the similar articles as it is for example the Royal Air Force and the United States Air Force. Nubia86 (talk) 23:23, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

OVERCITE problem in the article

For an article with only 24 kB prose size (3912 words), this article's on the shorter side, but it's got a total of 170 citations. I believe that's quite a bit and creates citation clutter, especially in the Future section. I mean, that last sentence alone has 9 citations as shown below:

There are also plans to acquire 40 Eurofighter Typhoon’s from the United Kingdom, the sale has been approved by all the partners, except Germany due to opposing views over the Israel–Hamas conflict

Meanwhile WP:REFCLUTTER, explicitly states Two or three may be preferred for more controversial material or as a way of preventing linkrot for online sources, but more than three should generally be avoided

Let's maybe trim it down a bit?

There are quite a few non-English citations scattered throughout the article alongside the English ones. According to WP:RSUEC, English sources are preferred when they're just as good. So, as a first step, perhaps we should consider removing those non-English citations? Ckfasdf (talk) 13:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

ping recent editor on the article, such as Hurricane Spitfire, FOX 52, Nubia86, Shadow4dark, SpinnerLaserzthe2nd. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The same problem is also caused here TAI TF Kaan I support to remove non English sources if we have already good English sources.Shadow4dark (talk) 13:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Shadow4dark: Agree... Since Hurricane Spitfire has started trimming down citations, despite previously insisting on keeping excessive citations, does anyone disagree if we revert the article back to my last edit? I don't claim my last edit was perfect, but I reckon I trimmed more excessive citations than Hurricane Spitfire did. By the way, I also removed the word "current" as per MOS:CURRENT. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

To Hurricane Spitfire, please note that WP:OVERKILL also suggest : If one source alone supports consecutive sentences in the same paragraph, one citation of it at the end of the final sentence is sufficient. and Two or three may be preferred for more controversial material, I don't think the content cited is controversial, so I figure one citation should be enough. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:28, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Stop damaging the Turkish Air Force article, stick to Pakistani issues. Hurricane Spitfire (talk) 23:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea on what are you talking about. what is stick to Pakistani issues means anyway? Ckfasdf (talk) 03:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Typhoon

To Hurricane Spitfire, refer to your edit on the Typhoon section of the article, whereas:

• Firstly, you insists on stating that the reason for German rejection is "Germany said 'NEIN' and Germany is the real boss of the Eurofighter GmbH consortium, headquartered in Germany", however there is no reference that states that this is the reason and he also did not provide any reference to back up this claim.
• Secondly, you insists on adding the following sentence: "The U.S. Senate's approval for the sale of 40 advanced F-16Vs to Turkey on 27 January 2024 makes the Eurofighter purchase less likely, due to the cost advantages associated with TAI's expertise in the licensed production of the F-16 and its components since 1987" citing BBC and F-16.net as sources. However, neither of these sources mentions anything about reason procurement of Typhoon is less likely, Typhoon itself or TAI's experience with the F-16. IMO, this claim may constitute as original research, which is prohibited by Wikipedia policy. Since you are a new editor on Wikipedia, you may not be familiar with the policies we have in place. WP:OR explicitly states Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists.

With that said, any claims lacking references and original research will be removed. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Sabiha Gökçen

@Hurricane Spitfire: I'd like to emphasize that this article primarily addresses the overall context of the Turkish Air Force. Therefore, a concise reference to Sabiha Gökçen as the first female fighter pilot suffices. Those interested in more comprehensive information can refer to her dedicated page, Sabiha Gökçen. Similarly, notable figures like Chuck Yeager, who holds significance in global aviation history as the first pilot confirmed to exceed the speed of sound in level flight, receive only one sentence coverage in United States Air Force article.

I'd also like to highlight that there is currently an excessive citations of Sabiha Gökçen in the article. Therefore, it'll be better to reduce number of citation per WP:OVERCITE. Ckfasdf (talk) 17:25, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Images in the article

For an article with only have size of 24 kB (3964 words), this article is somewhat on the short side. But, IMO it has too many images and MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE also states too many (images) can be distracting.

The recent inclusion of an image of Ahmet Ali Çelikten exacerbates the problem by adding to the excessive number of images and contributing to the issue of over-citation. Additionally, in my opinion, Çelikten's significance for Turkish Air Force topics is not as notable as that of Sabiha Gökçe, whose name has been immortalized as the name of an airport in Turkey. Moreover, other images in the article also suffer from the MOS:SANDWICH problem, where text is sandwiched between two opposing images. Therefore, it is necessary to begin trimming the images to address these issues, starting with the removal of the image of Ahmet Ali Çelikten. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:44, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

TAF in WWII - British involvement

The article omits mention that Turkish pilots trained as guests of the RAF in WWII. Brookwood Cemetery contains a Turkish Air Force section in which 14 are buried who died in this country chiefly in accidents while flying training as early as 1943 (before Turkey joined the Allies) and into 1945. There could be some material for users in this linked page: https://thebignote.com/2024/01/22/brookwood-cemetery-the-turkish-air-cemetery/ which I gladly offer. Cloptonson (talk) 17:20, 31 August 2024 (UTC)