Talk:Turkic Karaite

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (It is a useful redirect. A search on Google Books produces 19 hits for "Turkic Karaites") -- Toddy1 (talk) 14:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I am very confused by your behavior to be honest User:Toddy1, first you and Nepolkanov accuse me of being a sockpuppet of User:Kaz but at the same time you both actually defending his ideas :/ Thankyou at last for a comment someone can work with at least. But there are problems with the results you considering the books you mention [1]:

• 1 [2] is a clear reference to Shapshal's ideas of non-Jewish origin.
• 2 [3] is also about the groups which migrated into Europe from Asia.
• 3 [4] again is about the idea of Turkic origin not Jewish origin.
• 4 [5] is a false result
• 5 [6] is a linguistic reference.
• 6 [7] is a linguistic reference
• 7 [8] is another linguistic reference.
• 8 [9] is a linguistic reference
• 9 [10] is clearly about religious Karaite Jews who speak a Turkic language.
• 10 [11] is also clearly about Karaite Jews.
• 11 [12] is a repeat
• 12 [13] is a repeat
• 13 [14] is a repeat
• 14 [15] seems to equate them with Karachay
• 15 [16] seems to be about the language of groups living in Eastern Europe without specifying religious affiliation
• 16 [17] is a false result

The remainder have no preview available. So the result is this is still just another confusing and ambiguous term. Looking forward to a non-elusive response. YuHuw (talk) 15:38, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

The notice said "If this redirect does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice" and since it does satisfy the criteria, I am presuming you must be intending to fix the problems right? YuHuw (talk) 15:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

All you write above is right regarding Crimean Karaites Thete is no debt that many Crimean Karaites claim for non Jewish origin.They caled themselves Turkic Karaites (Karaimy Turki). Scientists relly assume that their fathers migrated to Europe from Asia(Golden Horde) . But there is no any other group called TUurkic Karaites.All your wrote above is about Crimean Karaites.("Karaim folk as they call themselves from 20 century") So no disambig here Неполканов (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for saying everything I wrote above is right Неполканов! That is an unexpected complement from you. So you are confirming that that:

1) There is no doubt that many Crimean Karaites claim non-Jewish origin.

2) The Karaites who claim non-Jewish origin call themselves "Turkic Karaites"

3) Scientists really do state that their ancestors migrated to Europe from the Golden Horde.

But the Crimean Karaites page is heavily focused on Karaite Jews in Crimea. Why do you insist on including a people who separate themselves from Karaite Jews under an article which is focused on the Judaism of a Karaite Jewish community in Crimea? You are contradicting yourself. Why not just make one line in the Crimean Karaites article about These people and focus the rest of the Crimean Karaites article on Karaite Judaism? It is really strange and unnecessary to include two groups with two very different attitudes (One Jewish, one Turanist) under one title. Why not leave the Crimean Karaites page alone and put all your knowledge about Turkic Karaites into a separate article here? YuHuw (talk) 07:58, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

The Crimean Karaites article is not about Crimea. It also about Lithuania residents and this etnic(curently non Jewish) group. Are you able after 4 years that we are familiar to undestand it?. Crimean Karaites is not about Karaite Jews and not about Crimea residents.I have no objection to add to Crimean Karaites article more details about non-Jewish origin POV's among this group .This theories are not supported by modern science(in contradiction to Holocaust period ). But the edits must have proper neutral fromulation (like you wrote in Keraite page about Crimean Karaites and not like you did it 4 and 1 year ago .So the key point here that Turkic Karaites -with all that you know about them, are actualy ethnic minority curently different from Jews and leaving 'all over the word(not only in Crimea) but called Crimean Karaites in English. So please revert your non-consensus last edit on this page yourself. The only way you can contribute to Wikipedia is cooperation. Otherwise it will be finished like in your 2 previous distributive edits attempts over past 4 years .Неполканов (talk) 18:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Please see my comments here [18] and here [19] asking you to stop making references to me as a sockpuppet.

Do you know this book? Kniga D.A. Prochorov - Ilja I. Kazas// Krym v lizach i biografijach Simferopol. Atlas -kompakt 2008- Valentin Kefeli talked about it saying Ilya Kazas said long before Seraya Shapshal that Turkic Karaites were Molokans before they adopted Karaimism. What do you have to say about the author? By the way, the same information is repeated throughout Alexander Lvov's site especially here [20]. YuHuw (talk) 23:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

1)Valentin Kefeli is not RS . It is private Crimen Karaite. He established the site that Kazimir Yusef Hubert Won Staufer bought from him and destructed it(replacing e.g phrase "Converted to Christianity" to protected the Cristian Character of Karaite chucrh",regarding M sarah for example)

2) I wonder why Kaz distort the cites (may be it is simly bad knowledge of language -while having Russian roots he is British badly understanding Russian with authism problems )? Lvov in cite above wrote actualy the following

"За последнее время официальным кругам караимства приходится сталкиваться с вопросом о так называемых "русских караимах" - субботниках. ... Неоднократно они делали попытки к воссоединению с коренными караимами, но безуспешно, так как против этого энергично протестовали представители господствующей церкви. Да и сами караимы, по вполне понятным причинам, уклонялись от официального общения с сектантами". Однако, после официальной регистрации субботниками своей общины "гахам С. М. Панпулов в бытность свою в Петербурге зондировал почву в официальных сферах". Убедившись в неодобрительном отношении властей к возможному присоединению, "гахам уклоняется от непосредственных сношений с сектантами"

Google translare: In recent years, official circles of Crimean Karaites faced with the question of the so-called "Russian Karaites" - Saturday. ... Many times they attempted to reunite with indigenous Karaites, but to no avail, as it vigorously protested against the representatives of the dominant church. Even the Karaites, for obvious reasons, have shied away from official communication with sectarians. "However, after the official registration of their community Subbotniks" HahamSM Panpulov during his stay in St. Petersburg probed the ground in the official spheres. "Convinced of the disapproval of the authorities the possible connection, "Haham avoids direct communication with sectarians" -so in this faked in Kaz's dtyle source again nothing about Turk Caraites .Turkic not mentionmed at all. There are russians that claim to be Karaite Jews,while Turkic Karaites is modern selfname of denied Jewish identity Crimean Karaites(Karaims) all over the world (not only in Crimea)Неполканов (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

2)See below what wrote really wrote Kazas about Lithyanian and Crimean Karaites:" Как бы то ни было, неоспоримо и историческою истиною оказывается теперь, что нынешние крымские караимы, а потому и происходящие от них караимы литовские, волынские и галицийсцкие суть прямые потомки особенной ветви евреев, отделившейся от своих собратьев во времена стародавние, ещё до эпохи вавилонского плена, и проникшие в пределы нынешней России из глубины Средней Азии. Язык татарский они приняли, уже перешедши через Кавказ, в нынешней Южной России, открытой для нашествия и владычества татар издревле ; но особеннный характер своего религиозно-национального развития, чуждый, а потому и враждебный раввинизму, они явно вынесли из Персии.Казас И. И. Общие заметки о караимах // Караимская жизнь. — М., 1911. — Кн. 3-4, август-сентябрь. — С. 37-72

Google translation:Whatever it was, undeniable and historical truth is now that the current Crimean Karaites, and therefore derived from them Karaites of Lithuania, Volyn and Galiciya are direct descendants of the particular branch of the Jews, separated from their brethren in the days of ancient, before the era of the Babylonian captivity and penetrated into the limits of today's Russia from the depths of Central Asia. Tatar language they adopted that had passed through the Caucasus in southern Russia today, open to invasion and domination of the Tatars from ancient times; but osobennno nature of their religious and national development, is alien and therefore hostile to rabbinic, they clearly learned from Persii.Kazas I. General notes on // Karaimskaya Zhizn . - M., 1911. - Kn. 3-4, August-September. - P. 37-72 Неполканов (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Being Israeli myself I know that it has sadly become fashionable here to be quite harsh against minorities (like Subbotniki) if the orthodox think you are not really Jewish. So I can understand people from Turkic Karaite background (but Karaite Jewish in faith) who made aliyah here when the climate was more liberal (25 years ago) desperately trying to propagate the idea that the numerous and vociferous Turkic Karaites are just Karaite Jews who are tying to escape their Jewish identity and desperately trying to fight against the idea that East European Qara'im are not originally Jewish. I get that. But I think it is really necessary to just step away from the present day political climate, far away and discuss the facts in an honest and objective way.(talk) 23:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

The article never claimed that they are Jewish . I also agree that it is different from any other ethnic group (Jewish or not) "Crimean Karaites" with traditional religion Karaimism. There is no any difference between this religion and Karaite Judaism except some Turkic names. Not all "Crimean Karaites" are its beleivers like not all Jews are Judaism beleivers. Неполканов (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Now concerning Crimean Karaites, I know this is a religious group and just like there can be Russian Orthodox who live all over the world and are not even Russian so too Crimean Karaite refers to a Religious group of Karaim (Karaite Jews) who follow the form of the religion as it developed in Crimea. Crimean Karaites (Karaim) can therefore live anywhere and the Crimean Karaites page is almost about those people. Similarly Anglican Catholics (a type of protestant) can be anywhere in the world. Anglican simply describes the form of the Catholicism those Catholics follow. But we never say that the descendants of Russian Jews or Spanish Jews living in the USA for example are Russian Jews or Spanish Jews, we call them American Jews (regardless of whether they are Ashkenazi or Sephardi), likewise we do not call the descendants of English people who moved to America 300 years ago English. So it is just as crazy to call Karaim living in Lithuania as Crimean Karaites, religiously they may be Crimean Karaites, sure, but they are described as Lithuanian Karaim if we don't want to talk about their religion. You yourself used distinguished Lithuanian Karaim from Crimean Karaites here [21] while re-factoring my talk post. In fact I have met both a Lithuanian Karaim and a Crimean Karaite here in Israel. The Lithuanian did not call herself a Crimean in any way at all (even seems quite opposed to Crimean Karaites).(talk) 23:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I think you actualy directly mix between Crimean Karaims amd Lithuanian Karaims. Karaims ethnicity is translated to English as Crimean Karaites' '. In Hebrew or Russian they called Karaim without word Crimean. You use this messing fact to define Lithuanin Karaim as non Crimean Karaites that it is wrong . I see in you note below (I bolded it) that you catch this poin yourself later Неполканов (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I am seeing a lot of contradictions from you. In one place [22] you indicate Qarailar is a term for Crimean Karaites while objecting to them being called Turkic Karaites and in another you say the term qarailar does not exist [23] and here you say that Turkic Karaites are just Crimean Karaites for example. I would like some calm non-emotional clarity and objective honesty from now on please. Let's see how it goes :) Fundamentally, if we are to be objective, it is obvious that you are saying that Turkic Karaites are an ethnic group and Crimean Karaites are a religious group among the Turkic Karaites. Obviously there is always going to be a lot of confusion if the two are treated together as one people, but I can see you comming from a Slavic first language rather than English you are not really able to see the advantages that English has in this situation. Because I see not only the Ethnicity but also the religious group are both together called Karaim in your language. This is obviously a linguistic relic of the Russian nationalities policy. But there is no need to use the same limitations of Slavonic languages while building an English language encyclopedia. It is only causing years (according to you) of misunderstanding. It is easy to put an end to that now by not pointing Turkic Karaites to a page about those who follow Karaimism or the Crimean "rite" of Karaite Judaism (as it may well be if you are correct in your description of the religon). YuHuw (talk) 23:06, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Hoping that you really want to understand this not simple for novicemess. I explain again

1) Karaim in russian is the same name for ethnic group and Karaite Judaism adherent. Crimean Karaites(also in Lithuania) to distinguish them as ethnic' minority different from the Karaite Jews.This minority cu currently call themselves Turkic Karaites (Караимы тюрки ) due to the Karaim langugage(3 very different dialects but all of them have Turkic nature with many Hebrew words and it is the only meaning for term Turkic Karaites.

2) Some of them claiming non jewish roots calling themselves not Karaims(Jewish word) but Karaylar (equvalent Turkic word) , They still see themselves the same ethnic group.

3) Some religious Crimean Karaite(outside Crimea!) see here secular nationalism(I only cited one of the religious leaders not as my opinion that is not relevant in WP) Неполканов (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually I might have been unjust to the Slavonic languages, as it seems possible to say Karai (singular) and Karaim (plural) in reference to Religious people but' Karaim (singular) and Karaims (plural) in reference to the ethnicity as I see now in this [24] article it talks about Catholic Karaims. YuHuw (talk) 23:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Very nice? Asimon failed?(Do you understand this sentence,Israeli ?).It exact the point. 'Karaims as ethicity is translated from Slavonic languages to English as Crimean Karaites. Catholic Karaims in English are Catholic Crimean Karaites. They have several religions now including Christianity as written in the article. Неполканов (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

No that is a ridiculous claim you have to bring evidence for it. The article never says "Catholic Crimean Karaites" it says Catholic Karaims. Your claim is completely nonsensical in English like saying Jewish Roman Catholics and in contradiction to your own posts. It is as illogical as the (you say atheist) Krymkaraylar Association naming themselves after the religious community. But I can indeed see where your confusion is coming from -the legacy of Russian Nationalities policy. It would be as if Roman Catholics were made into an Ethnic group under a regime's policy and then after that regime collapsed still calling themselves Roman Catholics just because their ancestors were -regardless of their belief system. The asimon won't drop for you until you manage to get over the hegemony of the nationalities policy and start thinking in English. YuHuw (talk) 20:49, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Here is alink to Krymkaraylar Association.Almost nothing about the religion. 99% about Karaim Ethnicity.You again trying to use the misleading translation of slavic word Karaim (relating to the ethnicity) as Crimean Karaites. This is misleading for novice, You are no novice you use this misleading again and again ignoring this explanation again and again Неполканов (talk) 22:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

If you could respond to my comments rather than just refactor your own Неполканов after I have replied next time that might help move this discussion forward. Also it will help me better to see your replies if you do not cut and chop about my own comments in order to write your responses please. By the way, concerning your comment that the "Караимы тюрки" (either Karaim Turks or Turkic Karaims or "Karaims Turks" lol depending upon which translation I use) has "many Hebrew words", I think should bring your attention to this from Russian wikipedia ref name="неосведомлен">Цитата: «…Заметим только, что наречие татарского языка, которым говорят Русские Караиты, не заключает в себе ни малейшей примеси еврейских слов, оборотов или каких-либо других следов того языка, которым должны были говорить их предки, если эти предки точно были евреи. …обстоятельства эти невольно наводят на мысль: … по крайней мере, в наших глазах… караимы… потомки тех турок-хазар, которые, как известно, исповедовали закон Моисея и владели Крымом с VIII по XI век» Опубликовано в: Григорьев, Василий Васильевич Еврейские религиозные секты в России. // Журнал Министерства внутренних дел. — Спб., 1846. Ч. 15. — С. 11-49 What do you have to say about that? YuHuw (talk) 22:18, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Grigorjev is a father of Khazarian Karaim Origin theory ,because he was diletant in Karaim Language .Karaims assepted his ideas only after their russification.Kazas was strong opponent of this idea. There is a lot of examples of Hebrew words in every dialect of Karaim Language especially Galician one. They includes a lot of Hebrew even non religious words (e.g Nesher). Do you understand it, Israeli? Неполканов (talk) 22:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I didn't ask you what you thought about Kefeli, I aske what you thought about D.A. Prochorov's work. I have asked you so many times to stop making references to me as Kaz that I have lost count. Please. There is no need for such insults and having read what you wrote about him it is clear you intend it as one of the worst insults around. There is no need for such adhominem attacks just let's talk about the sources. At least you agree with Lvov. YuHuw (talk) 12:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I have noted you above that if he wrote so (I am not sure while you use Googlr translator for Russian texts) it is totally wrong. I cited Kazas above that he supposed Hebrew Origin of Crimean Karaites.

I explained you above that Григорьев was totally неосведомлен and outdated while every one whith elementar familiarity with Hebrew and Karaim language knows this ,Shapshal's Karaim-Polish Russian Dictioanary includes hundreds of words signed by author as originally Hebrew words. It is amazing that after all this explanations you vandalized Karaim Language basing on Grigorjev cites .Could you explain me such your behaviour ? Is there any meaning in my effort to explain you something ? Неполканов (talk) 21:45, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

First of all, virtually every group supposing Sarmatian origins for themselves has claimed to be 25 centuries lost tribes of Israel one time or another, so it is not surprising although it means very little. Be-that-as-it-may here is the wrong place to discuss that. Please discuss that on Talk:Keraites.

Secondly, as for Karaim language issues please discuss that on Talk:Karaim language I will respond to those issues in the appropriate places for everyone to be involved. YuHuw (talk) 08:06, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

What have the Sarmations got to do with either the Kereits (a tribe from Outer-Mongolia) or the Jews? I think you have got confused.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

You are clearly unfamiliar with the texts being discussed. YuHuw (talk) 12:22, 5 February 2016 (UTC)