This is an archive of past discussions about Turban. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
"even killed" in the introduction is rather blunt and lacking in evidence? Is there any?
The Harassment part seems to make statements not backed up by the sources. First, the attacks mentioned in the articles aren't attributed to fascists. As to the racist part, either one could argue that it is a POV that the the attackers are racist, the other side to that the actions imply racism, in which case the description is not needed. Rds865 (talk) 05:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
define cultural faith????!!!?!??
what in the world the sentence "important spiritual element of the cultural faith." mean
Agreed!
Citation on hate crimes assertion?
Certainly there was a great deal of post-9/11 'discussion about the possibility of turban-based hate crimes, but it's difficult to recall ANY actual crimes occuring, let alone a significant number. Moreover, it would be nearly impossible to state with any confidence that a crime against a person who happens to be wearing a turban is a hate crime. Given the disproportionate number of Sikhs who work in high-crime-victim occupations (ie, taxi driving and convenience store employment), one could argue that said crimes are against people, and not against turbans. The Editrix17:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to remember, but it seems to me there were reports immediately after 9/11 of an assault on a Sikh, and the shooting of an Eastern Orthodox priest, in the mistaken belief they were Muslims because they "dressed funny". SigPig18:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
As a related concern, isn't asserting that such crimes were committed by racists and especially by "fascists" unwarranted and possibly baiting language? While it is plausible that assaults were committed against turban wearers by angry Americans believing they were Muslims, and in some cases wrongly believing so, the motive was apparently religious, not racial - and it is highly unlikely that most of the assailants were fascist. Fascism refers to a specific political alignment and it is incorrect to equate fascism with either racism or political conservatism, or with hate crimes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.7.158 (talk) 01:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Turban (Sikhism)
The Wikipedia article for 'Turban (Sikhism)'[[1]] states that 'Sikhism is the only religion in the world in which wearing a turban is mandatory'. This appears to contradict this article, which asserts that the turban is 'not explicitly required for baptised [Sikh] men'. Does anyone know which is correct?
It depends what type of Sikh you are. Sikhs as a rule count hair as one of the 5Ks. However, certain Sikhs (notably the AKJ), raise the Turban to be one of the 5Ks (uncut hair with a turban). Virtually all baptised Sikhs where a turban (AKJ followers or not). However, whether it is explicitly mandated - probably requires a bit more research than I have time to do at the moment. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk20:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The color of a turban
The article states that in some turban wearing cultures the color of the fabric holds some cultural importance, e.g. a black turban can mean that the bearer is a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. Is this true with all turban wearing cultures? Are the only a few colors that are acceptable to wear? I saw a man wearing a pink turban not to long ago and it struck me as odd, is there any significance to a pink turban?
Sikhs may wear turban colours to match what they're wearing. I've seen all the colours of the rainbow. There is no religiously prohibited colours (for Sikhs at least). Although, for obvious reasons, most Sikhs stay away from neon Yellow and the like! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk20:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about other militaries, but the Canadian Forces issues turbans in green for Army, light blue for Air Force, and white for Navy. I do not know if they are issued any other colours to match beret colours in certain units, such as maroon for paratroopers or black for armoured (or for that matter, CADPAT for combat conditions). RCMP have issued one similar in colour to their Stetson and a dark blue one. I think they look rather cool. --SigPig21:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Other Turbans
Just a thought, but there are other form of Turbans as well (e.g. Puneri Pagadi, Thakoor-style Turban, etc). Can we add those here? -- Mayuresh09:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Afghanistan/Pakistan
And theres NOTHING about Afghanistan or Pakistan.
In Afghanistan south and Pakistan southwest, every adult male has a turban, sometimes the biggest turbans currently worn.
Among the Pashtuns for example, white turbans are worn by priests, while everyone else wears black ones. The cloth is wound around a cap, which eventually disappears from sight. Sometimes theres more cloth in the turban than the rest of the clothes, and can become heavy.
The baloch in Pakistan and Afghanistan traditionally wear turbans like Pashtuns but its wider. During the early part of the last century, their turbans became HUGE as seen in some old videos. At that point beads and other artifacts were hung from the sides of the turban.
I think the information on Pakistani and Afghan turbans should be added since that region has more turbans per capita than any other region. I'm personally however relatively ill-informed.
Um, not EVERY male in Afghanistan wears a turban! They only wear it in rural areas (like in the mountains!). Just because you see some people wearing it on TV doesn't mean everyone wears it. And also, the traditional Afghan lungee/turban is different from the Pakistani one. I'd recommend someone with actual correct information to fix the article.72.196.229.1523:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
well its not true...that only the people in the rulral areas wear turbans in afghanistan.Its also worn in cities,and in pakistan its only worn in FATA and some parts of NWFP and Bolochistan,and the turbans worn in afghanistan is exactly the same that is worn in north west of pakistan.However its is worn very less in punjab and sindh,nearly negligable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.231.240 (talk) 12:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Afghan lungee
There is no reference of the Afghan lungee. It is different from a turban and was changed from the original page of lungee in the Afghan culture page. Whoever changed this needs to correct the article. Afghan lungee should be included. And there should be no reference to the lungee and the Pakistani turban because they are completely different. Does anyone have some GOOD and reliable info?72.196.229.1519:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Zora's rewrite
I happened on this page and wasted a few hours of my life completely rewriting the article. It was much too focused on Sikh and Islamic turbans, and completely ignored all the other forms of turban wearing. I rewrote to make a distinction between contemporary usage and history, and also included some sketchy material on the wearing of turbans in the West. I was surprised to find pictures of men and women in turbans from 1400 onwards! As others have noted, we need more on Afghan and Balochi turbans. Also North African and Tuareg turbans. I think turbans were worn in China too.
This article should be much larger and have many more pictures and links. I'm hoping that if we raise public awareness about just how many kinds of people wear turbans that there will be less harassment of Sikhs in the US. Zora08:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Sorry, not to say i have a particularly amazing style of writing but this article reads as if it was written by a retard. Could someone change this please?
I doubt if he meant you in particular, Zora - he just didn't add a new section. I had to rewrite the European bit of (apparently) your rewrite - most early European "turbans" are in fact Chaperon (headgear). I'm also dubious about the two photos - the french woman looks to me like she is wearing a bonnet tied tight, but turbans for women did come in a little later. A good pic of a male turban (worn informally around the house, but often in portraits) from c1680-1780 would be good also. Johnbod03:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
John, I left a longer message on your talk page. I'm not sure that I agree with you re chaperons, but I'm willing to be wrong. I cited some picture captions in my Bruhn and Tilke. I agree that the French picture isn't good. It was a quick grab. Better ones could be found. I have read any number of late 18th century novels where turbans are mentioned as women's headgear. I just didn't find anything online, but I may have been looking in the wrong places. I can't scan pictures from Bruhn and Tilke, because it's still in copyright.
That was a first pass at a European section. I didn't like the emphasis on Islamic and Sikh turbans. I'm sure great improvements could be made. There were also revolts in China called the Red and Yellow Turban revolts -- I haven't started to research that. I have a feeling that turbans have been worn in many places -- it's such an obvious thing to do with cloth. Zora07:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have replied on my talk-page & copied it to the one at chaperon (headgear). I will revert your changes to my bit - I have 18 inches of scholarly references books used at Chaperon & you have two picture captions in a general history. Not close enough I'm afraid. The OED first cite for a European female turban is 1776, so I will amend that bit. They say it briefly revived in 1908, & also there was a different sort of hat called a turban in the 1850s. They don't distinguish the C17-18 male Euro use. Try the NPG London for Kit-Kat Club for those -lots of good ones. Johnbod09:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
question
What's that thing, you always see shepherds in the nativity play wearing.. it's rather like a cloth draped in a way to mimic a mane of hair, with the majority of its length trailing down the back of the head, and with a headband at the top to hold it on? I love that thing. It's not quite the same as the keffiyeh... - asked some time ago by anon, just now deleted, let's hope by accident, by mr my points go to the top of the page anon Johnbod01:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Color of Turbans
There is no significance for the color of the turban in the Sikhism faith.
Colors that are prohibited to be worn: Red (Worn by Hindus in battle, etc) & Green (Worn by muslims in battle/Mosques are mostly colored green)
Colors that sikhs should wear the most: Kesri (Orange) Black and White
Orange : Battle/Sacrifice
White: Before cremation sikhs are covered in a clean white sheet, which represents Shaheedi or "Death", Bhagat Kabeer tells us we should be dead while living alive.
Black: Also related to war
Yes, you see people wearing gold, yellow, pink, red,any color they like to wear
www.damdamitaksal.com
Ancient Use Of Turbans by Jewish, Chritian and Other Cultures
This article ought to have more information on the ancient use of turbans by Jews, Nazarenes, Essenes, Christians, Ishmaelites, Mandaeans and people of India and others of wearing turbans. To emphasize the custom of Arabs, Sikhs and Muslims of wearing turbans makes it seem as though other cultures do not or have not worn turbans. The use of turbans obviously did not originate from Islam and Sikh dharma. Turbans have been around Africa, Western Asia and India way before Islam and Sikh dharma. Basically their ought to be more information in the history section on ancient references in the Tanakh and elsewhere of Jews and others wearing turbans.
Also another contemporary religious group who distictively wear turbans are Bobo Shanti Rastas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.229.48 (talk) 07:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The article states 'People first began to wear Turbans in the Sudan according to Leo Frobenius a German historian. It was believed that wearing a turban gives you super-powers. This is still a widely acknowledged theory today. Scientists believe that Muslims are therefore vulnerable to kryptonite.'
This is a joke, surely. Kryptonite is a fictional mineral. Please edit the article.
The claim that it is Sikhs who are identified with turbans in the West has been removed as unsourced; there clearly are other cultures who wear turbans including the Rastafari who originate in the West. Such a statement would be more credible if it referred to the UK which has a large Sikh community but this statement has anyway been removed till it can be properly sourced. Thanks, SqueakBoxtalkcontribs14:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Turbans in Islam
Under "Turbans in Islam," the editor of the article stated the following; "Women of Islam are not allowed to wear turbans, women's clothing is called a Burqa which is to cover their face and bodies in public places." Where did you get the information to make such a statement? In Islam, covering of the whole body except the hands and face is mandatory for women. We muslim women do not have to wear burqas. The head covering that we wear is referred to as a hijab, the dress(usually black) that some muslim women wear (mainly in Saudi Arabia) is called an abaya. Also, a niqab is a face covering, but it does not cover the eyes. Wearing the abaya, niqab, and burqa aren't mandatory at all. It is more or so a cultural thing than religious. When in the Middle East, one will notice that a lot of the women wear abayas and or niqabs. Unfortunately it is the law in some of these countries, according to their interpretation of Sharia Law (Islamic Law).
Allah Ta'ala says: "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts from sin and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their headcovers over their necks and bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women (i.e., their sisters in Islam), or their female slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants free of physical desires, or small children who have no sense of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah altogether, O you Believers, in order that you may attain success.[An-Nur, 24:31]
Abu Dawood narrates that `Aishah (RAA) said: "Asmaa' the daughter of Abu Bakr (RAA) came to see the Messenger of Allah (SAAWS) wearing a thin dress; so Allah's Messenger (SAAWS) turned away from her and said: O Asmaa', once a woman reaches the age of menstruation, no part of her body should be seen but this-and he pointed to his face and hands.
If there are any further comments or concerns regarding my comment/review, please feel free to contact me at Zainabalhabil@yahoo.com (206.231.99.110 (talk) 19:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC))
Religion, areas, formatting
The lede mixes countries and regions, whereas it should stick to one or the other for neutrality; preferably regions in the interests of saving space. In Africa, turbans are also only commonly worn in the North and the Horn, where they were donned by the Muslim nobility and are still sported by the commonfolk. The only communities in Kenya and environs with a prominent tradition of turban wearing are the Islamic societies on the Swahili Coast, in places like Mombasa and Zanzibar. This is a legacy of Omani colonization of that littoral area, as the Sultans of Zanzibar and their subjects used to wear turbans. The tiny Kenyan “mukurinu/akurinu” Christian community is the exception, not the rule. The picture of one such representative should therefore not be placed in the lede, but rather in the Christianity section where the group is discussed. A Muslim representative should instead be placed in the lede, as turban wearing is traditionally much more associated with Islamic communities than Christian ones (both in Kenya and elsewhere). In fact, per the article, it is unnah Mu'akkadah (Confirmed Tradition) among Muslims. While turban-wearing is obviously also ubiquitous among Sikhs as a religious observance, please note that there's already an entire article on the dastar; so perhaps the turban-wearing Muslim should be placed first atop this page. Further, there was some tagged original research that I removed, as well as original research conflating women with common headwraps in parts of Africa and the West Indies with the turban. Lastly, Greece is a Western country and part of Europe, so it should not be presented any differently. The Colombian politician Piedad Cordoba also does not live in Europe, nor do turban headcovers for women who are following cancer treaments solely pertain to that continent. The latter should therefore both be presented as “Other”. Middayexpress (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
It is fair to say that the turban is a global thing and we should not say turbans are worn by Muslims and Sikhs in the intro rather list all the religions or say something like turbans may be worn for religious reasons and not list any.
Muslims usually wear caps not turbans Ali Gomaa ie see an image of mecca. The image of Ali Gomaa better represents the style of 'turban' that is most often seen on Muslims otherwise a majority of practicing muslims don't wear any headgear.
The intro is further flawed and it would make more sense if it was like this
Wearing turbans is common among Sikhs, In certain other faith communities, the headgear also serves as a religious observance, including among some Muslims who regard it as Sunnah Mu'akkadah (Confirmed Tradition).
because it is not common for Muslims to wear turbans ie take 100 muslim men on facebook and see how many are wearing a turban and then take 100 sikh men and see how many are wearing tubans and its fair to say that its more common for Sikhs where as only some Muslims wear a turban making it not common.
But I personally think its better to not include any religions in the intro. So address this issue otherwise I'm fine with the rest of the article. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 23:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Ali Gomaa appears to be wearing a taqiyah rather than a turban. At any rate, wearing turbans is Confirmed Tradition among Muslims. In absolute terms, there are also more turban wearing Muslims than in any other faith community. I see your point, though, about Sikhs having a higher overall proportion of turban wearers. I've rephrased the passage per the above. Middayexpress (talk) 15:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Should the first two pictures be swapped around? Since the text first refers to Sikhs, and then Muslims, wouldn't it make sense for the pictures to follow the same order for the sake of neatness? 109.150.218.97 (talk) 09:22, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Usually worn by gay men
The article states "Featuring many variations, it is worn as customary headwear, usually by gay men." Surely this is malicious material added by a bigot? I have lived and worked with Indians for many years and have never heard this before.Yevad (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Jews Need to Mentioned in Here!
There needs to be a section regarding the use of the turban by Jewish people, especially that that lived in Muslim or Arab lands.
Hmm, I have also seen some paintings of Burman people with turbans, anyone have any reputable sources of South-east Asian cultures that sport turbans? if you did I would be happy to add the sections to the page if it was indeed a cultural practice in ares. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.69.168.225 (talk) 07:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Pre-Islam Arabians wore turbans.
Turbans weren't a religious thing back then and still not religious in modern Arabia.
Arabians (whether religious or not) consider them traditional Arab headwear not Islamic.
Well maybe except for Shiite minority, they do wear them in a religious fashion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.240.65.154 (talk) 18:53, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't say its traditional among Arabs since its not worn by them, the Ghutra seems to be the Arabian traditional headgear though, turbans not so much but if you have a source then bring it forward. Akmal94 (talk) 06:02, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
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Hi. Recently I edited the section about the symbolism of the various colours of the Sikh turban. A lot of it was derived from a single non-authoritative blog post (a fashion blog with no apparent connection to Sikhism or Indian/Punjabi culture), including the rather bizarre claim that the "blue turban signifies a mind a broad as the sky with no place for prejudice", a claim which as a Sikh I have never heard and I which am certain does not come from Gurbani or any other authentic Sikh tradition. It might be a nice sentiment, but it does not belong in an encyclopedia. However the the unsourced content was replaced, and the editor responsible claimed that this information was available from "many different sources" which he conveniently did not provide. I have removed this incorrect information and replaced it with my older version.
Wikipedia is often the first port-of-call for school pupils, students, teachers and other people who want to get a good overview of the Sikh religion. It is vital that urban legends and original 'theories' like this do not get put into Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.148.21 (talk) 20:08, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Overlapping terms
The lead contains the following:
Communities with prominent turban-wearing traditions can be found in the Indian Subcontinent, Afghanistan, South Asia, the Arabian Peninsula, the Middle East, the Near East, Central Asia, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, the Sahel, and parts of the Swahili Coast.
This has some overlapping terms which makes the sentence somewhat confusing (and potentially contentious as different people could read some things into the overlap). I started to change it but I am guessing this may be a sensitive subject. The term South Asia covers Indian Subcontinent and Afghanistan. Middle East covers Near East (one can argue that they are slightly different in terms of Turkey but still the overlap is so large that using them both is confusing). Middle East also obviously covers Arabian Peninsula. I would say it is best to either use broad, less overlapping geographical terms, or simply list out countries. The former is probably better since a list of countries could prove tedious (and contentious). So perhaps:
Communities with prominent turban-wearing traditions can be found in southern and southwestern Asia as well as northern Africa.
Specificity can be provided later in the article.
--MC
Agreed, South Asia encompasses the Indian Subcontinent, and Afghanistan is considered part of south asia, Arabian Peninsula and near east can be consolidated into middle east.
Proposed rewrite:
"Communities with prominent turban-wearing traditions can be found in the South Asia, the Middle East, Central Asia, North Africa, and East Africa."
There was also a yellow turban army, and the boxers wore turbans; i.e., turbans seem to be associated to rebellions in China, meaning anything we write will be deleted by the 50 cent party within minutes.
Sikh turbans are among the most recognizable worldwide, so I don’t think it’s inappropriate for the first image to show one. However, leading off with two very similar images does strike me as undue. Any suggestions for a replacement for one of them that would better capture the scope of the article in the first screenful?—Odysseus147900:33, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
