Talk:Tupac Shakur/Archive 1

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Note: I got rid of some cruft on this discussion page.. feel free to bring back stuff if any of y'all want~

P.S. (This is in response to the comment on the Cleanup page that the "breezy fannish style" referring to Tupac as "Pac" or "2Pac" was inappropriate) This page definitely needs cleanup.. but I used various aliases of 2Pac because they're what he preferred to be called. From the documentaries I've seen (Thug Angel, and Thug Immortal) he is usually referred to as either 2Pac, or simply Pac. Later in his life he went by "Makaveli". I believe his names also have historical significance in and of themselves.. Lesane (birth name) to Tupac (given by his black-panther mother) to 2Pac (as a rapper) to Makaveli (metaphorically resurrected).

Plus.. I just thought it would be downright boring, and poor literary style, if every time I listed his name, it would be "Tupac" or just "he".

Other than that nitpick, I welcome help.

Schmiddy 6/27/04

On the topic of the "fannish" style I just had a look at this article and saw lines like "Shakur had minor beef with LL Cool J, who he thought was a wannabe thug" surely this kind of style is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. -nrl

*Shrug* Yeah, you're probably right. Most of what I write about 2Pac is prob. "fannish" since i'm a huge fan. This is Wikipedia, though, dive in and edit if you want to change it. For the record, though, I don't think that line is terrible.. and it was the only reason I could find why Pac had beef with LL Cool J. Schmiddy

Early text

he died on september 13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.146.68 (talk) 09:12, 7 September 2003 (UTC)

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Tupac fans and historians, I have heard a long list of reasons supporting the claim that Tupac is still alive. I don't know enough about the history to know which claims have plausability, and which are simply made up. If you can help me learn more about the conspiracy theories, please visit User:Kingturtle/2Pac. I hope eventually to create a lecture for my History class on this topic...to help teach about checking facts and evidence. But I need to become more of an expert in the topic myself. Thanks in advance, Kingturtle 04:09, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Dude, this photo sucks. Kent Wang 01:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---

I've done mass editing to this page to make it correct. Whoever started it didn't take the time do it correctly. =( - Annek 09:59, 05 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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I suspect copy vio. The text says "This picture was taken minutes before the fatal shooting." when there is no picture. Was this copied from somewhere, User:Annek? CGS 19:20, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It appears to be from [1]. I suppose a revert is in order. --Minesweeper 02:02, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

doing major editing

Hey.. I'm an enormous fan of 2Pac, I've seen a lot of the documentaries on him and listened to a ton of his music (there's a lot, seriously :))

Anyway.. I'd like to do some major editing to this page. It used to mainly be just about his death, but there's much more to know about his life and works. I'll be doing some major work to the page in the next few days, feel free to pitch in or to just clean up the looks, add links, etc. if you have time. Thanks -- schmiddy 6/18/04

Awesome! I look forward to reading your work! :) Kingturtle 07:23, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

bah.. did some more big editing.. looks rough but a good amount of the content is in place. i don't know how to move the table of contents from where it's at right now though... any help on that one? --schmiddy 6/19/04

Alright...

So I think I'm mostly done with the Bio.. One thing though.. I'm not sure how much credence (or space) I should give to the conspiracy theories about his death.. there are actually a lot, most of which are pretty unconvincing. I don't want to let my view on the matter censor them though.. Feel free to add in more than what I've done -- possibly we need a whole new article just about conspiracies around his death ?

Also.. any ideas on what more can be added to the main article? -- I'm thinking about maybe some 30-second clips of his songs, under fair use.. I'd also like to make some comments on the contents of some of the better songs.. don't know if that would be feasible or not.

OH Yeah! -- If someone can find some pictures that are legal to post here.. it would be great. I'm not sure about whether the whole FDL things lets you take "fair use" stuff or not (like album covers.. specifically i'd like a pic of the cover of the 7 day theory, since it's just so damn creepy).. Also, any pics of him , especially when younger.. if anyone can find 'em :)

-- Schmiddy , 6/20/04

Consider starting a separate article titled Tupac Shakur conspiracy theories. :) Kingturtle 09:28, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Tupac pictures

How did you get pics that you were sure were usable (not copyvio)? I'm looking for pics for Michael Jordan, KG, AI, Kobe, Tom Brady, Ray Lewis, etc. Salasks 16:45, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I looked at some of the Wikipedia: info pages about images&copyright (too lazy to hunt for a link right now) but apparently, if the images are under "fair use" they're fine. You just can't jack random copyrighted images off webpages. All the images on this page are from album covers, which are considered to be under fair use. For Jordan.. how about the cover of "Space Jam" , doesn't that have him on there? Not sure about the rest of the guys. good luck. Schmiddy 04:57, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

Quotes

The user who added "If I don't change the world, I guarantee that I will spark the brain that will." was accused of trolling. Did 'Pac say it? If so it seems like as good a choice of quote as his rhymes.Tim Ivorson 07:47, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Yes, 2Pac did say that. It is at the very end of the Resurrection film Schmiddy 03:42, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

I once read or heard a great quote by Pac, about him being labeled as a gangster-rapper, but I don't know the exact quote. Anyone who can help? It was something like "Al Pacino played lots of gangsters, is he called a gangster-actor? No, he's just called an actor. So why am I a gangster-rapper?" -- Sander 13:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I know the one you're talking about. It's in one of the earlier documentaries.. possibly Thug Angel? Schmiddy 03:42, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

That's very much possible. I'll go watch the Thug Angel DVD again today to see what the exact quote is, thanks for helping out. Sander 12:19, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Robbery and Biggie

I just removed this very poorly written paragraph from the end of the "Prison sentence" section. (This info would probably have fit better in "Shot five times robbery," which BTW I think isn't a very clear title.)

In the vibe article 2pac accused Biggie to being involved in his shooting.Biggie denies any connection.Tupac knew that Bad Boy wanted to sign him to the lable which at the time was co owned by puffy. The other owner we said to be part of the black mafia.When tupac was asked tupac turned them down b/c tupac had it good with interscope. So that's why tupac felt biggie knew who shot him.

Can anyone comment on the factual accuracy of and/or rewrite this? --Josh3736 06:34, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Even if someone could "vouch" for it, they couldn't prove it. I heard that Pac didn't necessarily blame Biggie, he just felt slighted that Biggie (who was supposedly such a big name in Brooklyn, New York) couldn't tell him, or at least help him find, the people who shot him. But it's all speculation. Before you start throwing the "Black Mob" in there, I think we should consider just taking it out.65.120.87.195 20:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Bullet proof vest

I don't know if this is true, but I heard that Suge Knight told Tupac to take off his bullet proof vest because it was too hot. I don't know if it is worth including?

It's true that Tupac wasn't wearing his vest 'that day', I don't know if Suge told him too... However, I don't think it should be in the article. It's mentioned on Kingturtle's 2Pac page -- Sander 22:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Brooklyn/Bronx

There have been some edits recently, changing Tupacs place of birth from Brooklyn to The Bronx and back lately. I always thought he was from Brooklyn too, but now even IMDb has him from The Bronx as well. Anyone who has an official biography or something so we can settle this once and for all? -- Sander 14:17, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My students swear Tupac was born in Brooklyn, not the Bronx. I couldn't find anything either way--anyone? (AR)

Although some web sites say he was born in the Bronx, I am pretty sure it was Brooklyn. The basic google test backs this up, as well as the "google books test" [2], which finds two books saying the bronx (including one edited by Ishmael Reed) to zero saying brooklyn (by my cursory search). Smmurphy ^(Talk) 04:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I will change it to Brookly, but maybe there should be a short sentence saying that some sources have it as the Bronx. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Plaigarism?

Much of the article seems to be directly and perfectly copied off the "2pac4ever" website ("shot 5 times in a robbery," "Early Life," the incorrect information about "Lesane Parish Crooks"). A transposition seems to be in order, or at least a stronger mention in the works cited area. Before anyone does anything like that, ask permission of the home website.

Anything that's been copied should be removed. If you can do this, it would be good. Please give a URL for relevant pages for the sections/parts you remove, though. CryptoDerk 05:40, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Re: why are you trying to remove one of them? (Categories)

Mike Garcia. I am trying to remove the article from 3 unnecessary categories. Category:Murdered entertainers is in Category:Murder victims. Category:United States rappers is in Category:Rappers, which is in Category:Hip hop musicians. Unless 'Pac was a kind of hip hop musician other than an American rapper, the article need not be directly in more than one of the hip hop musician categories. Only if he was a kind of hip hop musician that does not have its own category should the article be in both Category:Hip hop musicians and subcategories. Category:Murder victims I am not so sure about. The article is in subcategory Category:Murdered entertainers, but he is more than an entertainer, so perhaps the article should be directly in Category:Murder victims. What do you think? Tim Ivorson 08:24, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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"Serving jail time on bombing charges while pregnant with Tupac, she faced a possible sentence of up to three hundred years in prison." Really? --Exparrot 04:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps. That's only fifteen twenty year sentences. Tim Ivorson 09:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Beef with Tupac (Amaru)?

Please check into the wikipedia article/talk discussion for Tupac Amaru II, it seems like the author of this article has major beef with tupac's namesake. Check it out and please set this man straight!

Actually, I agree with him. Anything regarding why Lesane had a namechange to Tupac (no, it really isn't his birthname) should be on the Tupac Shakur page, not on Túpac Amaru II. -- Sander 7 July 2005 09:16 (UTC)

Agreed. And anything about what Túpac Amaru II's birth name was belongs at Túpac Amaru II, not in the opening of Tupac Shakur. Tomer ^TALK July 8, 2005 05:55 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely true. -- Sander 8 July 2005 09:55 (UTC)

Name

I just got done reading the Tupac: Resurrection book that has a bunch of pictures in it. Know what? Tupac's birth certificate says "Tupac Amaru Shakur". I have no idea why I keep seeing on unreliable bio pages that his "real" name is Lesane Parish Crooks. Unless someone can provide evidence affirming that, I think I'll remove that tidbit. Schmiddy 05:05, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

• Continuing discussion from Talk:Túpac Amaru II#Bias, according to Tupac's bio at IMDB, he was born Tupac Amaru Shakur, which mootifies part of my proposed sentence for his mention in Túpac Amaru II. However, this doesn't jive with the information in this article, which pretty clearly says that his birth name was "Lesane Parish Crooks". Either some better information, or perhaps just wording, it would seem, is in order. Tomer ^TALK July 8, 2005 18:10 (UTC)

• Also, why, in the lead, does it call "Tupac Amaru" and "Shakur" aliases, if they're really his name? Tomer ^TALK July 8, 2005 18:13 (UTC)

This site gives an explanation. The official website does not have any info, nor does MTV. Hitemup, which I find quite a reliable source, says he was born as Tupac Amaru Shakur though. I'm getting confused... I'll watch Thug Angel soon to see if that has any info on this. -- Sander 8 July 2005 23:32 (UTC)

Okay, here's what the booklet of the "Thug Angel" DVD says: "NAME: Tupac Amaru Shakur, born Lesane Parish Crooks". Inside it says "On June 16, 1971, shortly after Afeni's acquittal of the bombing charges, Tupac Amaru Shakur (born Lesane Parish Crooks) is born in the Bronx, New York" (exact quote)

I think the source is reliable enough to put an end to all the questions about it -- Sander 23:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Just saw "Tupac Shakur: Before I Wake..." yesterday, it said the same thing. So let's settle it once and for all: he really was born as Lesane Parish Crooks.

The question remains, however, when was he renamed? Tomer ^TALK 13:30, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Well, Tupac: Resurrection the book shows his name on his birth certificate to be Tupac Amaru Shakur...where's the one that says Lesane Parish Crooks?

Bad grammar

Not to say anything bad about rap fans (who probably made most of this article) but there are some funny grammar mistakes in this article.

eg.

"He said he was freezed"

"probably the most weirdest"

Heh... :)

. . . "freezed" is a slang term so in my opinion totally acceptable. After all modern day Dictionaries contain slang terms.

Muslim/Arabic

Is he muslim or arabic? There are alot indicates that he is --60.226.17.162 02:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

--No, he wasn't a member of any religion, and dodged any questions about his faith, usually stating that he just believed in what he believed in, and that was it. Although, his music tends to lean more towards a Christian belief system.

It is inaccurate to suggest that Pac (RIP) did not follow a religion. Although his religious following has been under partial examination, his lyrics, his interviews, and most tellingly of all, his tattoo's reinforce the belief that Tupac Shakur was Christian. It is pure fantasy to suggest that he was a Muslim. He never made references to any Islamic scriptures or verses in his interviews.

Furthermore, he had an extremely large tattoo of a cross on his back, with the Bible quotation 18:11 tattooed above. Moreover, he has the tattoo Only God Can Judge Me: if he was a Muslim, why wouldnt he have "Allah" instead of "God" and why wouldnt he refer to Allah in any of his interviews? There is not a SINGLE interview in which Pac refers to God as Allah.

Allah is Arabic for God. You don't have to refer to God in Arabic in order to be a Muslim, that argument is ridiculous. Having said that, I think Tupac is probably Christian with Muslim leanings/inclinations which may be because of street influences or maybe NOI. Fkh82 00:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Further evidence can be found in his album Still i Rise (released 1997), where he dedicates an entire song to "Black Jesus". One of his most famous songs, "Hail Mary" is titled after the mother of Jesus Christ. The cover of Makaveli Don Killumanati shows Tupac being crucified, in the same way of course that Jesus Christ was.

The video Papa'z Song also sees Tupac rapping in front of a giant white cross whilst wearing a necklace of a cross, further highlighting his Christianity.

His underlying Christian beliefs are on show for everyone to see in an interview taken at the MTV Awards on 4th September 1996.

Let it be clear...Tupac Shakur was NEVER a Muslim...the moderator is right in saying that despite there being no overt indication on Tupac's behalf of his religion, his works, his language and his behaviour overridingly suggest that he held, at least fundamentally, Christian beliefs.

"Only God Can Judge Me" does not mean that he can not be Muslim as Islam has that belief. I have heard that his mother was a convert to Islam and also that he had a gold chain shaped in large letters spelling "Allah" in Arabic. His involvement with some elements of christian beliefs is only because he was a part of s street culture which included a few elements of christian beliefs, but most of them are ones that christians would find derogatory (example, "Black Jesus"). So, he was definitely NOT a Christian, but it seems likely that he was not a practicing Muslim either. a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 18:23, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Although I think it is impossible to tell what religion he was I think he WAS muslim. In ghetto gospel, when he dies, it shows him pointing up toward the sky. In muslim beliefs this means for Allah to forgive him for whatever he has done.--60.226.28.216 02:19, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Your argument does not have one iota of truth in it, nor does it have ANY substantial evidence to back up your claims. In Ghetto Gospel, there is an ACTOR portraying Tupac, not Tupac himself...furthermore, pointing to the Heavens would indicate the passing of Tupac, since having died it is presumed he would have gone to Heaven (RIP). The person beforehand offers even moe ludicrous comments: "I have heard that his mother was a convert to Islam and also that he had a gold chain shaped in large letters spelling "Allah" in Arabic"...so wat if you "have heard"...wheres the evidence...i "heard" that petrol was being sold for 50p a litre down my local supermarket but it werent true...does anybody who think Tupac is Muslim have ANY hard evidence, other than their own bias and opinion..."His involvement with some elements of christian beliefs is only because he was a part of s street culture which included a few elements of christian beliefs, but most of them are ones that christians would find derogatory (example, "Black Jesus")"...are you not aware that the Nation of Islam is also part and parcel of LA street culture? the mere fact that u think sum Christians would find the title "Black Jesus" derogratory is a estimation of ur ignorance...check the Guardian website, and u will see that MANY black organisations have consistently voted the "Black Jesus" as being the greatest black in history..."So, he was definitely NOT a Christian, but it seems likely that he was not a practicing Muslim either" this jus makes me laugh....Tupac wears a cross in Papa's Song, has a cross tattooed on his back, has a bible quotation tattooed on his back, sings a song titled "Black Jesus" and "Hail Mary" after Chirst's mother and all u give is a few of ur opinions, and thas exactly what they are, opinions, not hard evidence, and u make the claim that he wasnt Chrisitian but yet not a pracitising Muslim....to be a non-pracitising Muslim means u have to be Muslim in the first palce...he wasnt...drop the idea...do urself sum justice and read around the topic before u alter the charecter and background of a great man...as for the moderator...there hasnt been any hard piece of evidence suggesting Shakur's allegiance to Islam, jus wanton opinions...in the same view, i can say that he wore an Om sign and thus was a Hindu? for a moderator, you have to moderate, and weed out the baseless information, which people above have given, from actual evidence and facts....im aware that there is no hard evidence suggetsing Tupac was Christian, but there is OVERWHELMINGLY circumstantial evidence suggesting that he was Christian, NOT, i repeat, NOT Muslim...if there is anyone out there, who can provide HARD pieces of evidence, i.e. interviews, videos, then show it...cos i know there isnt any out there, COS HE WASNT MUSLIM...Mr Moderator...do ur job properly...and dont jus write down "It should also be noted that 2pac was possibly a Muslim"...there is no evidence suggesting he held nothing but respect for Islam, like he did to other world faiths...

Muslim/Arab(2)

I think right now it is safe to put on the page the following : It should also be noted that 2pac was possibly a Muslim. Or something like that

Get it together

I have deleted several comments above this which (mainly) descended into offensive name calling. The last comment (in the #Muslim/Arabic section) is only marginally better. Please refrain from insulting other users, either directly or indirectly. Please also look at Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Cite sources is a good place to start. Ideally you should be able to come up with a short paragraph along the lines of "While Tupac was coy about his personal religious beliefs, there are some indications as to what they may have been. On the one hand, ..... suggesting he may have had Christian beliefs, on the other hand .... suggests he may have been Muslim. In an interview with XXX on XXX he said "....". He was buried in a <yyy> ceremony." etc. Bear in mind that his beliefss may have changed, not been consistant, and/or he may have tried to hide or mislead about them for many reasons. Good luck. Rich Farmbrough 13:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)'

Death

Tupac Shakur was gunned down by military agents for his vocal opposition to the military's Don't ask, don't tell policy with regard to gays in the military. He was among the first to be killed, on account of his race. Although the government has suppressed all relevant evidence concerning the case, the Illuminati maintain a detailed dossier of events which military intelligence has yet to destroy. This information will be made public in the coming of Revelations within the next four years, as predicted by John Titor.

Why do some Wikipedians feel the need to censor the truth?

^^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!HHAHAHAHROFLZ!!!Richard Corey 20:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

death

i think you guys have a mistake on his date of death he is still making records he cant be dead

He's making records? What records? :-P --Hottentot

Linkspam

Just wanted some clarification, why is http://www.makaveli.com linkspam? At first glance it does seem to be a fan site of some notability. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 05:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Because some anon is adding it to advertize their website. --Hottenot

Orlando Anderson

Under the Second Shooting heading I added that fact that he beat on Orlando Anderson, before it just said "Baby Face" Anderson.

He was an emcee right?

I find it so wrong that every hip-hop article written on wikipedia (that I've read so far, anyway) deals more with the person outside of the booth than inside the booth.

Why don't we focus more on his music. Get some people to breakdown his albums, the meanings for songs, the stories behind songs and albums, his style, what made him special AS AN ARTIST.

Look at the Beatles page. Every album is broken down, with a link to each song and stories behind them. Meanwhile, Tupac, LL Cool J and KRS One have these long, meandering articles talking about their backgrounds and the drama they've been in.

Am I the only one that cares about this? Richard Corey 20:32, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No, you're not. I totally agree with you; there is a reason why Mr. Shakur is famous, and it ain't just for the crazy stuff. We should be talking more about his music and films---his actual work.

Now I don't know enough about his music to be able to make improvements; I mainly listened to his records as a teenager, but I am well-versed on his films, and I wanted to work on that section. I wanted to get feedback from others before I started on this.--Pinko1977 03:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Record Sales

Are these figures correct? Because I doubt 2Pacalypse Now went 4x platinum, and the actual wikipedia page for 2Pacalypse Now says it reached Gold Status.

Pac's Cinema Career

Folks, I wanted to revamp the "Acting career" section, because as people have pointed out about the music, it gets short shrift. Pac was a highly influential actor, and I can honestly say that he revolutionized the concept of rappers starring in films, because since him, rapper-actors have become commonplace. Of course, unlike most of these stars, Pac was a trained actor.

I would go ahead and just do it, but I don't want to make major changes without checking in first. What do folks have to say about it? --Pinko1977 03:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I say, go for it, especially if you can cite some sources. If you need to rearange things (beyond cleaning up the mention of acting in the "rise to fame section"), mention it here, but otherwise, his acting career could use a couple of paragraphs describing both his style/influences/education, and the movies he worked in and what his work meant to his career and to the hip-hop community. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)