Talk:Tunnel of Love Express Tour

Tunnel of Love Express Tour was nominated as a Music good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 23, 2013). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tunnel of Love Express Tour/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 03:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Wasted Time R, I'll be glad to take this one. Sorry it's had to wait so long for a review--thanks in advance for your work on it! Comments to follow in the next 1-5 days (hopefully 1!). -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I have some specific comments and initial impressions so far (below). With regard to sourcing, this looks quite good, with just one or two points I've noted, and the coverage seems comprehensive. The biggest recommendations I have early on is that the prose be rewritten at points for neutrality and a more encyclopedic tone.

"Max Weinberg and Danny Federici, Garry Tallent and Nils Lofgren, the horn section" -- this clarification comes far enough in the sentence from "band members entered the stage two by two" that I had to look at it a few times to understand what it meant. Maybe move it back to the phrase it's clarifying and set it off with dashes?

I've done some rewriting in "The Show" to try to put this in more straightforward, encyclopedic prose, particularly avoiding sentence fragments; let me know if you have any objections to the changes

"than on any tour before" -- this refers to just Springsteen's tours, right? Or do you mean tours generally?

"The country-influenced rock and serious ballads of the new album were not ideal stage material" -- this opinion should be attributed to an author/authors in-text for neutrality.

"wrote of the sparks flying from" -- rewrite per WP:IDIOM

(moved below)

The biggest problem I see with the article in a quick skim is that it feels rather self-consciously prosy at points, in a way that's not compatible with clear and concise encyclopedic writing. A small but extreme example is the odd ellipsis in "now was ... 'Be True'"; I understand that the idea here is to try to create more of an effect for the reader, but it would be better to simply say what happened. I assume the sentence fragments in the Show section are intended to create a similar effect; the constant variation in verb tense in describing the tour's show (sometimes past, sometimes present, occasionally future conditional) probably stems from a similar problem. Other sentences jump out at me that feel more like storytelling/music criticism than straightforward encyclopedic writing:

"But his quest to undermine his Born in the U.S.A.-era fame with a more subdued album and smaller-scale tour had ended up in most unexpected fashion"
"And so the show's theme was established — an examination of relationships, often of the failed, sour variety, much as the album had been"
"Next came Patti Scialfa in a tight mini-skirt,[19] big hair and carrying a bunch of balloons: more foreshadowing"
"with immediate audience response sacrificed for what might be a slower but deeper understanding"
"Perhaps tame by the standards of Prince or Madonna at the time, but for Springsteen and his audience, a line had been crossed."
"A tabloid fever was underway"
"Out come Scialfa and two women from backstage, three temptresses for the six assembled men"
"Amplified deep breathing." -- (what is this fragment even doing here?)
" In tours past, this was a classic moment of Springsteen the relentless showman"
New York, New York is tagged as needing disambiguation.

My twin suggestions here are to revise for syntax--preferring straightforward sentences to "prosy" ones--and to attribute many of these opinions more clearly to individual authors/critics. For example, discussion of the show's theme should probably be written as something like "Critic X describes the show's main theme as ..." The Prince/Madonna/Springsteen "line has been crossed" comparison is WP:OR unless attributed to a critic.

But I don't want to start in on a significant rewrite without discussing with you first. Are these changes you're up for making? Let me know your thoughts and we can get down to more detail. And thanks again for all your work on this one! I've never been a Springsteen fan, but this was interesting to read about. -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for doing the review, and the wait is no problem - it's expected for GA nominations.

Yes, I've done it a little differently this time around. The key here is the last thing you wrote. I was trying to make this interesting. For why should anyone want to read about a rock tour that happened 25 years ago? I've gotten over 40 articles to GA and I've reviewed more than that, so I know the expected WP writing style. But WP articles are often dull as dishwater. For some topics this may be appropriate but for others, such as ones on popular culture, it really misses the mark. I can't tell you how many articles I've read on music that fail to capture the spirit or the essence of an artist or a recording or a performance. And I'm not sure how much of this is comes from real WP guidelines and how much just comes from an expected norm - the "encyclopedic tone" that editors and reviewers keep making reference to. WP:TONE says "Standards for formal tone vary depending upon the subject matter, but should follow the style used by reliable sources, while remaining clear and understandable." WP:WIAFA talks about "prose [that] is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Well, there are no professional music writers and no published music sources whose presentation and writing is as dull as what you see in WP. So in this sense, what I am doing is in accordance with these guidelines. But am I also doing a bit of WP:IAR as well? Maybe.

Now, I don't mean to sacrifice clarity and if anything is unclear then I am happy to rework it. And if something is completely unsourced, I will source it or remove it. And it looks like an editing botch or two is in there, such as the "Amplified deep breathing" fragment, which I will take care of. But things like the 'odd ellipsis' and most of the phrases that you highlight are indeed intentional. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand where you're coming from, though I don't entirely agree. I found your McGovern article absolutely fascinating, for example, despite its being in standard syntax and formal language. Admittedly, much of this comes down to personal writing philosophy. My personal take is that it's the content that sells the article--the unusual, telling detail, or the wickedly funny quotation from a critic--and the best thing that the prose can do is get out of its way. Efforts to dress up prose can backfire a bit by creating the sense that the author is trying to "sell" an impression rather than the impression organically selling itself, sort of like a comedian laughing hard at her own jokes. (A crude example from when I used to teach creative writing is the way that first-year students would overuse exclamation points. "She opened the door and the murderer was right there with a knife! She ran!" I understand the temptation, but I feel like it hurts more than it helps.) And to be honest, that was my reaction as a reader at some points here; I felt like the most interesting parts of the article were those where you as the editor were most "invisible", such as chronicling different newspaper reactions to Springsteen's affair.

All that said, though, I'll make a point in this review to clearly distinguish between what seems to me GA-required and what isn't. I really appreciate all your work on this and will give you whatever slack I can to take it in your own direction. Tone and neutrality overlap, but aren't the same, and syntax is only a problem when it gets into things like switching verb tenses or interferes with clarity. Later today or tomorrow I'll sit down and list some specific action points beyond what I've already mentioned. And if at any point you feel I'm going too far in my suggestions, we can ask for a second opinion from the GAN regulars. Sound good? -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review

Okay, points to consider:

"reflected the ambivalence of the album" -- as a critical judgement, should be attributed in-text
"Max Weinberg and Danny Federici, Garry Tallent and Nils Lofgren, the horn section" -- this clarification comes far enough in the sentence from "band members entered the stage two by two" that I had to look at it a few times to understand what it meant. Maybe move it back to the phrase it's clarifying and set it off with dashes?
I've done some rewriting in "The Show" to try to put this in more straightforward, encyclopedic prose, particularly avoiding sentence fragments; let me know if you have any objections to the changes
"more foreshadowing." --foreshadowing of what?
"than on any tour before" -- this refers to just Springsteen's tours, right? Or do you mean tours generally?
"The country-influenced rock and serious ballads of the new album were not ideal stage material" -- this opinion should be attributed to an author/authors in-text for neutrality.
"wrote of the sparks flying from" -- rewrite per WP:IDIOM
"the show overall more subdued than in the past,[10] with the return to arenas making the show more accessible" -- critical opinion should be attributed in-text
"Yet at the same time the stage presentation was more stylized and choreographed than on any tour before" -- attribute in-text
"an obscure, lightweight B-side" -- "lightweight" judgement should be attributed in-text
"And so the show's theme was established — an examination of relationships, often of the failed, sour variety, much as the album had been" -- discussion of the show and album's themes should be attributed in-text
"Theatrics were up throughout:" -- what do you mean by "up"? "Present"? Or that they were at higher-than-normal Springsteen levels?
"A tortured rendition of the Biblical "Adam Raised a Cain", sitting on a park bench with Clemons in a long prologue to "All That Heaven Will Allow",[24] the horn section throughout swooping and swaying and doing every bit of stage shtick known to horn sections." -- the inaccurate hyperbole should be cut ("doing every bit of stage shtick known to horn sections"); the "tortured" part should be attributed in-text
"with immediate audience response sacrificed for what might be a slower but deeper understanding" -- again wandering into analysis; in-text attribution would be preferable for neutrality
"it now served to sum up a set's worth of personal struggles and counter any mistaken notions about the song's patriotic intent." --another spot where the interpretation shouldn't be placed in "Wikipedia's voice"
"and unlikely attempts at Roy Orbison's "Crying"" -- "attempts" seems like a clear judgement here; should be attributed in-text
"Amplified deep breathing.[26]" -- ???
" Perhaps tame by the standards of Prince or Madonna at the time, but for Springsteen and his audience, a line had been crossed." -- interpretation needs in-text attribution
"But his quest to undermine his Born in the U.S.A.-era fame with a more subdued album and smaller-scale tour had ended up in most unexpected fashion" -- this commentary should have in-text attribution. If you were not around at the time this means simply that the more subtle tour from the beginning had turned in to the greatest rockshow on earth by the time it hit Europe. And that was because he played stadiums in Europe and had to change the tour.

I was around and many thought when coming to Stockholm it would be a dark show. Instead he played the 2 best concerts on Swedish ground. Rockring a lot harder than 1985.

Are http://www.greasylake.org/setlists_lists.php and http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/ reliable sources? The latter seems to be a wiki.
I've fixed some of this, but as mentioned above, the verb tenses need to be looked at--no reason to switch between three verb tenses (past, present, conditional future) to describe the standard show. -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Needs cleanup for a few prose issues.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	"Broadcasts and recordings" should be touched on in the lead
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.	It's difficult at times to sort out what are the opinions of the cited sources and those of the article's author; at least one paragraph of interpretation lacks citation.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	The article gives extensive interpretation of the show in Wikipedia's voice.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	After giving this a fair amount of thought, it still seems to me that fairly serious revisions are needed on this article to meet GA criteria for clarity, grammar, and especially neutrality; for that reason, it seems best that revisions take place outside the GA review process. I understand that this is intended as an experimental, IAR article, but I'm not convinced that the results here justify the IAR; as a reader, I found it the more experimental sections at times difficult and opinionated. I don't mean to be excessively negative about this one, though--there's lots of great research and material here, especially in the more traditionally written sections, and I hope it gets revised and renominated for GA soon. Since it's an unusual case, I also wouldn't be at all offended if you were to seek a second opinion. -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:00, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

East Berlin Concert

The Article says 500,000, which whould be about 3.1% of the GDR's total population (then ca. 16,000,000). But I found the guardian has a headcount of 300,000 (source: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/jul/05/bruce-springsteen-east-germany-berlin-wall), which whould be like 1,9%. --78.53.32.26 (talk) 10:33, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That figure was inserted by someone else. I've reverted back to the two most common estimates – 160,000 or 300,000 – and expanded the description of the show, included the Kirschbaum hypothesis about its effects, and made this into its own section in the article. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

500 000 was reported in Many newspapers. Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Springsteen was paid 1 million DDR mark for this concert and another 340 000 DDR markfrigång tv and radio rights. Malung it 1 340 000 DDR mark Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:07, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I try to publish my source here but nothing happens. Also try to publish source for the tour grossing almost 50 million USD but the sources does not seem to come up Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is somebody afraid of Bruces gigantic earnings between 1987 and 1988 which was 61 million USD. Because I have source and everything but it does not get posted. Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:28, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And yes 500 000 was reported by about 15 newspapers Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:40, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone seriens to have forgotten that the Born in the USA tour had much more arena dates than stadium dates. 109 arenas and 47 stadiums Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

I try to put references to the fact Springsteen was paid 1 340 000 DDR Mark and that the tour almost grossed 50 million USD and Also that Springsteen earned 61 million USD between 1987 to 1988 and 56 million USD between 1986 and 1987 but it does not work. Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:17, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Springsteen earnings 1987 1988

Bruce made 61 million USD between 1987 and 1988 which is relevant to this tour. I have source on that Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC) Book "Rocklists" by James Bernard page 25 and 26 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.181.64.129 (talk) 10:12, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tour grossing

Tour grossed almost 50 million USD in 67 dates. Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have source on that Peter Larsson 77 (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References To East Berlin show

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/q4nc1l/bruce_springsteen_performs_in_front_500000_people/https://learngerman.dw.com/en/bruce-springsteen-an-icon-of-freedom-in-east-germany/a-50516661#

https://learngerman.dw.com/en/bruce-springsteen-an-icon-of-freedom-in-east-germany/a-50516661#

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/q4nc1l/bruce_springsteen_performs_in_front_500000_people/

https://9gag.com/gag/anQA8o5

https://www.livefromeurope.com/bruce-springsteen-performs-in-front-500000-people-in-east-berlin-1988/

https://www.picrail.com/l/q4nau0/bruce-springsteen-performs-in-front-500000-people About 15 sources about 500 000 people. So that figure as has Bern delivered by East Germans as well might be true

https://www.lvz.de/mitteldeutschland/bruce-springsteen-in-ost-berlin-im-juli-1988-die-stasi-hoerte-mit-5LWTM7IUADQX6552C2LGDLUU7I.html?outputType=valid_amp Article in German about the 1 million 340 000 East German Marks Springsteen claimed to play

https://www.koenau.de/2018/07/berlin-1988-springsteen-bricht-die-mauer.html?m=1 Anorher German article about the 1 340 000 East German mark Bruce received. I dont understand whats so strange about that. Hi stadium garantee fee in 1988 in western Europe was 1 million USD. À drastic step from the 500 000 USD he received in 1985 in Western Europe. Bruce charges a lot thats a fact. 2 concerts in Ireland in 2016 grossed over 18 million USD. The man is super rich. Good for him. I dont see the problem. Working Class hero or not he sold his music rights for close to 600 million USD so he is probably closing in om Paul McCartney as the richest artist of them all.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:801:236:7E05:F9A7:D096:CAF2:7C7D (talk) 20:40, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radrennbahn_Weissensee# — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:801:236:7E05:F9A7:D096:CAF2:7C7D (talk) 20:34, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/q4nc1l/bruce_springsteen_performs_in_front_500000_people/ 2A00:801:236:7E05:F9A7:D096:CAF2:7C7D (talk) 19:56, 8 September 2022 (UTC) https://9gag.com/gag/anQA8o5 https://www.livefromeurope.com/bruce-springsteen-performs-in-front-500000-people-in-east-berlin-1988/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:801:236:7E05:F9A7:D096:CAF2:7C7D (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of all these links, only two of them qualify as reliable sources that Wikipedia can use, the Leipziger Volkszeitung story from 2018 and the Deutsche Welle piece from 2019. One gives 250,000 for attendance and the other alludes to the 500,000 figure; I have incorporated both into the article, with an attributed quote on the latter. I have also included the 1,000,000 DDM and 340,000 DDM payment figures for the show. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bruces guarantee and merchandize

Bruce had a guarantee of 95 % of ticket sales for this tour. Unheard of before and a LOT more than the Born in the USA tour. Merchandize prices had more than doubled sinne the Born in the USA tour, and a LOT more merchandize were available at this tour than the Born in the USA tour. Thats why Bruce could keep the tour short. He earned a lot more per concert. T shirts that had cost 5 USD on the Born in the USA tour were now 12,50 USD. Tour book also cost more than double the price. Than there were a lot more merchandize available. Besides T-Shirts and tour book, there were jackets, sweaters, tank tops, pins, rings, posters, and actually also binocullars for short people. Also t-shirts came in a lot of different versions than the standard one on the Born in the USA tour. So Merchandize gross was a lot higher on the Tunnel of love Express tour than the Born in the USA tour. The tour clothes were given to Bruce and the Band and the stage and lightning were cheaper on the Tunnel of Love Express Tour. That the stage and lightening were cheaper was because of a good business deal With the companies that offered them. 90.235.5.198 (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Europe gigs the best Bruce and the E Street band ever did

The shows I saw in 1988 were the best shows I have have ever seen with Bruce Springsteen and the E Street band. I was at both the shows at Olympic Stadium in Stockholm ( the second from 3 rd of July is the most famous show Springsteen ever did in Sweden due to the fact it was sent on radio all over the world. Over 500 radio channels Send the first half of the concert). Swedish Newspapers wrote after the 2 1988 shows that These were the best shows anyone had played in Sweden. I could only compare it to When I saw him in Gothenbourg in 1985, and it was like night and day. In 1985 the band was not tight, They were not at all rocking as hard as 1988 and Gothembourg probably got the worst setlist of all the European gigs. The sound system was really bad and it was clear Bruce did not at all know How to handle stadiums. Then he did the worst versions I have ever heard of Darlington County, Cadillac Ranch and Glory days ( which after the opening riff had a 5 minute speach completely running the song. Why he had an even longer talk before the River I dont understand ). There were long times between songs and many slow songs completely Messing up the tempo of the concert. He did an accoustic Johny 99 that would have been ok at a Smaller place but killed the show in a stadium, Darkness on the Edge of town kept the tempo low, Then Shout out the light ( Good song but a Good way to destroy a stadium concert with because of its slow tempo ). After a Little Pause he holds an 8 minute speach before going into the River Messing up the tempo even more. Then comes the absolute worst Darlington County I have ever heard, Prove it all night was ok but Then Comes Glory Days with its 5 minute speach after the intro riff ( I remember thinking was he trying to mess up the concert on purpose ). My Home Town and Thunder road ended the first set. Now in 1985 My Home toan and Thunder Road was not done like today They were real sleeping pills. It gets better in the second set with Cover Me and Dancing in the Dark and Hungry Heart but Then Comes the absolute worst version of Cadillac Ranch I have ever heard. It was an embarrasing version of Cadillac Ranch. Then a break of 15 minutes before racing in the Street a song not meant for stadiums ( way to slow). Never ever really liked Bobby Jean and deffinitely never Rosalita which came after. Then after a break came the extra Numbers starting with sn accoustic Cant help falling in Love which would have been ok in front of 500 people but completely worthless in a stadium. That Bruce ended with Ramrod and Twist and shout had No way a possibilty to save the show, so I got away dissapointed from my first Springsteen concert. I Thought I would Give him an extra chance and went in 1988. I had to buy the tickets second hand because the 1988 Springsteen shows were the fastest selling tickets in Swedish history up till Then. But boy was I glad I went. Thd band extremely much tighter, rocking much harder, No pausing between songs and speaches were made at the right time and kept short. It seemed Bruce had found out how to entertain a Stsdium. A very Good beginning of the concert ends with the best 3 songs in a row I have ever heard. a brutal rocking Spare parts followed immidiately by a brutal war and Then the Best Born in the USA I have ever heard. And this was after a very Good start of the concert. The first set ends with a great version of Dylans Chines of freedom. The second set is so Good I untill this day cant believe it. It starts with the perfect Stadium Rocker Paradice by the C. A very rocking You can look, the ultimate Clown Rockn roll song I’m a coward. I’m on fire takes it down perfectly at the right time ( day 2 he performed a great Down bound train after ). Then the best Because the night and Dancing in the Dark I have ever heard, Then Comes one of the most brutal rocker I has ever heard Light of day and in the song Born to be Wild before going back to Light of day. After that a rest was needed and a beautiful accoustic Born to Run comes followed by the greatest Hungry heart I have ever heard immidiately followed by the absolute best Glory days I have ever heard straight rocking No speach and the Horn section lifting the song. After that a short break and the extra numbers come. An all band version of Cant help falling in Love much better than in 1985, followed by Bobby Jean and Then the greatest version of Cadillac Rancj I have ever heard ( night one but night 2 s Cadillac Ranch was almost as Good the 2 best Cadillac Ranch I have ever heard with the Hornes liftning the song and Bruce is completely wild ( to this day I have never seen rock on this level ) the first night he name checks Stockholm night while the second night he goes back to Wisconsin night. Where to go from there ? Rocking almost harder with Tenth Avenue Freeze out, Sweet soul music and Raise your hand with No breaks at all. Raise your hand terminates with the Elvis intro rocking the song even harder. Then Bruce asks if its not time to go home a big No Comes from the audience. Then Bruce takes his guitar and says ” Well I Guess the night time is the right time, lets see What you got beside you ” then he launches into a 15 minute Twist and shout which is the best have ever heard. Night 2 s ending is even better after Raise your hand, Quarter to Three appears after not being played for seven years, directly followed by another 15 minute Twist and shout. No Wonder the Swedish newspapers wrote that the 1988 shows were the 2 best concerts ever played in Sweden. 213.89.143.63 (talk) 05:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]