Talk:Tunisian Arabic/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: MPJ-DK (talk · contribs) 12:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I will be picking up the review of this one - both for the Wiki Cup and the GA cup as well. I will be making my review comments over the next couple of days. I am aware of the fact that the original nominator has been banned for sock puppetry, but I will give the article the same review regardless - perhaps someone on projet Languages or Tunesia would responde to the review comments. So I will give it a fair shake.

Side note, I would love some input on a Featured List candidate (Mexican National Light Heavyweight Championship) and a Featured Article candidate (CMLL World Heavyweight Championship). I am not asking for Quid pro Quo, but all help is appreciated.  MPJ-US  12:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Previous GA Nomination

• So the previous GA nomination was failed on September 7 for prose problems. It was renominated on September 30. Looking at the edit history for that time period very few improvements were made - definitely not enough to address the fact that it was failed almost immediately for poor prose. Nominator's contribution was to add a few "see also" links, not a good sign for me.

Note - for a lot of GANs I will suggest changes to phrases but I will not help someone totally rewrite their article, so if the prose issues get to the point where there are just a ton of problems I will point out sentences that have problems that need to be addressed.

GA Toolbox

I like to get this checked out first, I have found issues using this that has led to quick fails so it's important this passes muster.

Peer review tool

• Lead is five sentences, 3-4 is the current guideline so that should be adjusted. Looking at the lead, the last two sentences could easily be combined
• The lead has 11 references in it, eleven - normally the Lead has no sources because it should not introduce something that's not in the body of the article and those facts should be sourced in the body of the article, not the lead. Please move references into the body only and ensure all lead statements are in the body as well.
• Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honor (A) (British: honour), honour (B) (American: honor), behavior (A) (British: behaviour), recognize (A) (British: recognise), realise (B) (American: realize), ization (A) (British: isation), isation (B) (American: ization), analyse (B) (American: analyze), gray (A) (British: grey), grey (B) (American: gray). - pick one version and stick with it
• Points out that there are vague terms of size such as "some" and the likes, be specific or see if the word can be dropped.

Copyright violations Tool

• There is several cases of phrase overlay between the article and this one - I would like to see it reworded.

Disambiguation links

• No issues Y

External links

• The tool reports the following issues - please consult the tool for details

• 8 links are reported as dead - marked in red
• 3 links are reported as "likely dead" - marked in orange
• 3 links have connection issues - marked in blue
• 2 links are listed with a warning - one needs subscription - marked in yellow

Well Written

• Is covered in "Round 2 review" below

Sources/verifiable

• Is covered in "Round 2 review" below

Broad in coverage

• Yes

Neutral

• The talk page seens to indicate that this is not the case, disagreement between the nominator and a number of others, the use of Socks to help preseve one POV and make it seem like a majority decision is also an indicator that the current version is not neutral.
• @Omar-toons: - I know you voiced concerns on the talk page, do you believe those have been addressed??

Stable

• Well perhaps the ban will help make it more stable, but since there was a ban for sock puppety and one of the articles he used his puppets for was this one I cannot categorically state that it is stable. There is a list of issues on the talk page as well.

Illustrated / Images

• I do have one problem - the map of Tunesian dialects - created by the nominator, but I could make up a map tomorrow that shows it's got a small enclave of Danish speaking people in central Tunesia. A wikipedia editor is NOT a reliable source, yet the image being his "own creation" makes it look like it is.

• I am putting this article on hold. I have pointed out several improvements that need to be made, the nominator is banned. So I am giving other editors a chance to let me know if they are willing to pick up the work, Otherwise I will fail it in seven days

@MPJ-DK: I thank you for your review that will help me to adjust the work. First, Maik Gibson who wrote Tunis Arabic is an author of the work and he has written the parts you cited in Wikipedia before writing them in Tunis Arabic in 2009. You know that it is difficult for an author not to be influenced by his previous works. As for spelling issues, the American English spelling is adopted... So, if there is any issue with that, you are kindly asked to help me by adjusting it. As for the references, it is useless and extremely difficult to write the number of pages for each reference as most of the works are papers with less than 10 pages and as there are more than 150 references... We have decided to put references to the lead because some Wikipedias will only translated the lead into their languages. It will be useful that this lead contains the main references as well as the main information about Tunisian Arabic so that these lead-based translations will not be deleted later. As for the dead-links, I thank you very much for informing me about that. I will adjust this as soon as possible. --Csisc (talk) 10:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

User:Csisc - So unfortunately in this case it looks like Gibson is plagiarizing himself, the phrases I pointed out should be rewritten to not be such a close match to the sources. MPJ-US  14:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I would say that it's not "pointless" to add page numbers, even in a 5-page document it may be hard to pinpoint exactly where a fact is pulled from. I get that it's difficult due to the volume of references, I would like to see any source that is over 10 pages long then have a specific page reference listed. MPJ-US  14:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Have you made sure that the references in the lead are use for the same info in the body as well? There cannot be anything in the lead that's not in the body - which is usually why sources in the lead makes me suspicious.  MPJ-US  14:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

@MPJ-DK: I have solved most of the problems of neutrality like the problems of phonology and History. I still wait for some publications to appear to solve the problem of Punic and Phoenician Substratum and the problems of the application of the Buckwalter transliteration in Tunisian. Unfortunately, they are still in review in indexed journals. As for the dead links, I ask if you can give me the list of dead links because LinkChecker 9.3 seems to require excellent internet connection to function. --Csisc (talk) 11:28, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I did not realize that, below is the information I could pull from the report easily. It will list the title of the link, hope that helps?

• The following are dead

• Aménagement linguistique en Tunisie (Université de Laval) (info) [ulaval.ca] Done
• Yun, S. (2013). To Metathesize or Not to Metathesize: Phonological and Morphological Constraints. 27th Annual Arabic Linguistics Symposium. Massachusetts Institute of Technology. (info) [mit.edu] (WebCite archive avalible) Done
• IBLV (2014). 25ème Session de l'Université d'été 2014. (info) [ote.nat.tn] (WebCite archive avalible) Done
• http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-02/world/tunisia.rappers.balti_1_tunisian-people-rappers-sfax?_s=PM:WORLD (info) [cnn.com] Done
• Un cinéma dynamique (Tangka Guide) (info) [tangka.com] Done
• Buckwalter, T. (2007). Issues in Arabic morphological analysis. In Arabic computational morphology (pp. 23–41). Springer Netherlands. (info) [nmu.org.ua] Done
• éditions CERES (2008). Presentation of Tcancīnēt Tūnsīye (info) [ceresbookshop.com] Done
• Yun, S. (2013). To Metathesize or Not to Metathesize: Phonological and Morphological Constraints. XXVIIth Annual Arabic Linguistics Symposium. Massachusetts Institute of Technology. (info) [mit.edu] Done
• Adel, E., & Turki, H. (2015). Rules of Standard Maghrebi. Towards a Pan-Dialectal Orthography . GRIN Verlag. (info) [grin.com] Done
• Bouamoud, M. (2012). Where did the authors of drama disappear? La Presse de Tunisie, 20 September 2012 (info) [lapresse.tn] Done
• Guidouz, R. (2013). Successful Concert of Nawel Ghachem and Hussain Al Jessmi. Assahafa, 17 August 2013 (info) [info.tn] Done
• Nişanyan, S. (2009). Sözlerin soyağacı: çağdaş Türkçenin etimolojik sözlüğü (Vol. 1). Everest Yayınları. (info) [nisanyansozluk.com] Done
• The City of Carthage: From Dido to the Arab Conquest (info) [ed.ac.uk] Done
• Hidri, N. (2013). The concert of Majda Al Roumi in Carthage: The public approved the Bardo leaving protest. Alchourouk, 07 August 2013 (info) [alchourouk.com] Done
• Aouini, F. (2015). In the presence of stars from Tunisia and Lebanon: Nabil El Karoui presents the Ramadhan Programmes of Nessma TV. alchourouk, 09 June 2015 (info) [alchourouk.com] Done

@MPJ-DK: I thank you for your answer. I will try to adjust the deadlinks. As for the references with more than 10 pages, I will add the number of pages as soon as possible. --Csisc (talk) 13:35, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I have allowed some time for the source work to be addressed, I see it in progress so I will pick up the review once more.  MPJ-US  21:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

@MPJ-DK: Thank you. --Csisc (talk) 14:05, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

@MPJ-DK: All the dead links are fixed. --Csisc (talk) 15:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Round two reviews

Lead Done

• "or as Derja" should be simply "or Derja" Done
• "pronunciation and vocabulary" should have a comma after pronounciation - the old Oxford comma Done

Classification Done

• "comprised by that in the Afroasiatic family", not sure what you are trying to say here? Done
• "Arabic, just like Moroccan", remove the word "just" since I assume Morrocan Arabic is an example of middle eastern Arabic? Done
• Is there a definition of "hilalian" or a link? Done

Hilalian dialects are the dialects that have been influenced by their language contact with Banu Hilal dialect. There is a definition about that in Wikipedia. --Csisc (talk) 15:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• "little to not intelligible" can you reword that? Done

History Done

• I am not actually sure the "Linguistic situation of Ancient Tunesia" is related to the actual topic of Tunesian Arabic? It may be my unfamiliarity with the subject, but if providing context I think the "Middle Ages" seems to actully tie into the developement of the language. Done

This part is written to specify the factors that have influenced the spread of Arabic in Infriqiya and that have contributed to the final creation of Tunisian Arabic. --Csisc (talk) 17:05, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• "entered in contact" should be "entered into contact" I think Done
• "local Arabic dialects." should end with "as well" to clarify that it's in addition to the language. Done
• "speakers became using the" simplify "speakers used" or "speakers began using" Done
• Both "[g]" and "[q]" have a space in front of it. Done
• Veronika Ritt-Benmimoum and Martine Vanhove - Please provide some context to who they are, why their oppinion matters you know? Done
• "Tunisia that was Libyan Arabic", simplify "Tunisia, Libyan Arabic" Done
• "under Spanish then Ottoman" should be "under Spanish, then Ottoman" Done
• "That made Tunisian, Spanish, Italian and Turkish languages connect." It reads like there is something missing - "connected"? Done
• "country entered in contact with the Standard", overly complicated - "country encountered the Standard" or words to that effect? Done
• "beginning of a spread" should be "beginning of the spread" Done
• "researches" should be "research", it is never plurailzed Done
• "the profusion is" needs a capital T Done
• "the profusion is from many factors including the length of time the country was inhabited,[76] its long history as a migration land and the profusion of cultures that have inhabited it.[77] While the second, geographical, was the length and diversification of the country, divided between mountain, forest, plain, coastal, island and desert areas.[78]" I am a little lost here - what is this section trying to state?  Done

I have just adjusted this part. This part tries to give an overview about the reasons of the existence of the other languages than Tunisian Arabic in Tunisia in 1960. --Csisc (talk) 15:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• ERTT should be spelled out the first time it's used. Done
• What is "automatic Corpus"? Done
• INALCO should be spelled out the first time it is used Done
• IBLV likewise Done

Districtive features Done

• "its distinctive" - missing something? Done

Dialects Done

• "Before 1980, The pre-Hilalian group includes old", should be "included" Done
• "latter are also" should be "were" Done
• "excepting the one of Sfax." simplify - "except the Sfax." Done

Use and geographical distribution Done

• "theatre and music" comma after "theatre" Done

Society Done

• "Now, a full version of the New Testament is available online.[128]" that seems like a trivial mention Done

Literature Done

• "In some cases and since the initiative by the Taht Essour and particularly Ali Douagi[135] in the period between 1929 and 1959 to use Tunisian Arabic in various purposes like transcribing dialogues in novels and writing some newspapers, the dialogue in a novel or roman can be written in Tunisian Arabic using the Arabic script, with the main narrative in Standard Arabic." overly complex sentence and I am not sure what it is trying to convey Done
• "make some collections of Tunisian" remove the word "some" Done
• "authors and more particularly", simplify "authors, particularly" Done
• "and some members" should be "and members" Done

Music Done

• This is an English language encyclopedia, you need to provide a translation of any text not in English. Done
• This section goes into overly elaborate details about the music, the article is about the Tunesian Arablic language, not the music. I agree with some mention, but this seems excessive and the article loses it's focus. Done

I can create a work for Music in Tunisian Arabic and just summarize it in the Tunisian Arabic work. Thank you. --Csisc (talk) 16:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Arabic script Done

• "Nowadays, it became the main script" should be "Nowadays, it has become the main script" Done
• "conventions for Tunisian are not" - Tunisian Arabic right? Done
• "from a book to another" should be "from one book to another" Done

Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft Umschrift Done

• "In 1845, in Leipzig appeared the Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft" - reword to something along the lines of "In 1845, the Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft was formed in Leipzig" Done
• "Also, the first" drop the word "Also", simplify your sentences a little, Done
• Since you call it DMG later on have (DMG) appear after you spell out the name for the first time. Done
• "series of linguistic works was conducted" should be "series of linguistic works were conducted" since it is plural. Done
• "That is why the XIXth international" should be more formalized as "This is the reason why" Done
• "Also, from 1935" again, drop the "Also" Done
• "Now, the modified DMG is still used by institutions such as SIL International or the University of Vienna for Tunisian Arabic written corpuses and linguistic books" - the word "now" changes over time, perhaps something like "As of 2016"? Done

Additional scripts Done

• " trials were made" you cannot "make a trial", you can perform a trial or hold a trial though. Done
• "The trials tried to solve the lack", reword "the purpose of the trials was to try to solve the lack" Done
• "Also, the first successful" again you don't need the word "Also" to start the sentence, especially here where it's a new paragraph. Done
• "In fact" replace with "In this method" - the word "fact" is misleading, it was after all how he solved for it, not a stone cold fact. Done
• "Indeed, it" the word "indeed" is an unnecessary filler and can be removed. Done
• "in the same time" should be "at the same time" Done
• "Furthermore, although they are popular, these methods have problems such as the possibility of ambiguity between digraphs,[201] the absolute certainty of having a rate of graphs per phoneme that is significantly superior to the conventional value of 1 and independent consonants having the same transliteration as the digraphs[201] and the lack of disambiguation between /ð/ and /ðˤ/." - no clue what the "conventional value of 1" means and all? Done
• "his team constituted of several linguists" , simplify to "his team of linguists" Done
• "written in small letters" - does that mean lower case letters? Otherwise I am not sure wht "small letters" means. Done

Syntactic Transliteration Done

• "In fact," is redundant and can be removed without altering the information in the sentence. Done
• "University of Sfax[208]" i believe is missing a full stop before [208] Done
• "A morphological analysis and a conventional orthography of Tunisian using this method were posted by 2014[12][209] as a development of the generalized work of Columbia University Professor Nizar Habash about the use of Buckwalter transcription for analyzing and standardizing the orthography of main Arabic dialects." bit of a run-on sentence and I think we end somewhere totally different than we started, very confusing. Done
• "it is unfortunately not used by" the word "unfortunately" is a judgement call and thus not neutral. Done
• "method was not adapted for daily" should that be "adopted"? Done

Phonosyntactic Transcription

• "In 2015 and 2016 and by getting inspired from the principles of DMG Transcription and Buckwalter transliteration, Houcemeddine Turki et al. had the idea of creating transcriptions that represent all the Maghrebi phonemes but eliminate phonological simplification through the comparison of the words and structures of the dialects with Modern Standard Arabic root and patterns so that these created writing systems can be interconvertible to Arabic Script,[215] have developed a modified phonosyntactic DMG transcription[215] and have also created a simplified phonosyntactic transcription." that right there is one sentence, can you please revise and focus?
• "These transcriptions involved also some" should be "These transcriptions also involved"
• "These transcriptions involved also some innovations in the transcription of Arabic dialects that were done to let NLP analysis of Maghrebi Arabic and mainly Tunisian easier like the separation between prepositions and proclitics and the nouns next to them to improve the tokenization of the dialects, the differentiation between the word beginning with il and the il- determinant by adding a hyphen to the determinant, the representation of all emphatic letters to avoid difficulties in vowel transcription, the differentiation between the suffix of the conjugation of verbs in present in plural and the singular third person direct object pronouns by transcribing them differently, and the simplification of the transcription of glottal stop and Ta Maġlūqa." this is also one sentence, please revise it's very confusing.

Loanwords Done

• Is there really a purpose for an entire section on listing example after example after example of loan words? this is not a dictionary or a language course, a few examples to illustrate the point but this is really excessive in my opion. It does not add to our understanding of Tunesian Arabic, it just makes a huge article even bigger but does not help us get any wiser. Done

This number of examples is useful in order to explain to users the origins of loanwords in Tunisian Arabic. --Csisc (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Shift in Done

Is "notborrowing" a specific term or just a typo? Done

Word fusion Done

Again overboard with the examples in my opinon. Too many examples. Done

This number of examples is useful in order to explain to users that the application of word fusion is important. --Csisc (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Metathesis Done

• "shift of position" should probably be "shift of the position" Done
• "the first vowel changes of position and the verb becomes beginning with" not sure what you are trying to say but "becomes beginng" is not right. Done

Consonants Done

• "Interdental fricatives are also maintained except in the Sahil dialect for several situations." should be "Interdental fricatives are also maintained for several situations, except in the Sahil dialect ." Done

Semantics and pragmatics Done

• "Furthermore, some nouns and verbs have" you can take off the "furthermore" simplify and since it's starting a paragraph it's not really appropriate. Done

General

• @Csisc: - I believe I have been through the entire article now, sorry it took so long but it is one dense, heavy article that is not easily absorbed. It's not an easy subject matter and really had to dumb it down from the level it's on. It is a long read and of a higher academic level than some Wikipedia articles but that is probably the nature of the subject too. Please let me know if you have questions or when you believe you're ready for me to look over the various improvements.  MPJ-US  19:36, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
• @MPJ-DK:: I will edit the work as soon as possible. As you have said, we have made our best and consulted several linguists who worked about Tunisian Arabic so that we could give a detailed overview about it in Wikipedia. I will try to rephrase Gibson's contributions and give the page numbers for voluminous references. Thank you. --Csisc (talk) 14:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• @Csisc: - Can I get an update on where you're at with the updates?  MPJ-US  23:29, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• @MPJ-DK:: The updates that are already finished are marked by  Done. I have to wait for a publication to appear before adjusting the Scripts part. However, all the other parts are completed. I will work this week about Scripts part. --Csisc (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
• @Csisc: - The updates look okay to me, nothing jumped out at me. Do you have any idea when the publication you need will appear? This has already sat open for quite a while and I am trying to usher this through the system.  MPJ-US  12:40, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• @MPJ-DK:: Three to four weeks. I can adjust the syntactic transliteration part now and wait for the publication to adjust Arabic Script part and the phonosyntactic transliteration part. But, we can reformulate the part that seem to be plagiarized in the Gibson's work. That is why I ask you if you can give me the parts that seem to exist in Tunis Arabic of Gibson. --Csisc (talk) 13:03, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• @MPJ-DK:: As for the work, I will do my best to involve the references as soon as they will appear online. --Csisc (talk) 12:00, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

• Sorry did not realize you asked for that, figured you'd use the copyvio tool on this page pverlap in pink, not all of it can be helped but address some of it please.  MPJ-US  13:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

@MPJ-DK:: I thank you for your answer. I will do that. As for the phonosyntactic transliteration part, I will adjust it now and after the publication I currently wait will appear, I will add it as a reference. --Csisc (talk) 14:30, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

@MPJ-DK: I have finished editing Arabic Script and Phonosyntactic transliteration parts. I will add the publication as a reference as soon as it appears. Please review these parts. After, we will interest in modifying the parts of Gibson. --Csisc (talk) 13:02, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

@MPJ-DK: I have seen the parts that are still influenced by the Gibson works. It is mainly the phonology part. All other parts are not influenced by the work. --Csisc (talk) 13:07, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• @Csisc: - So this has been going on for over a month now, yes it's better but there are still issues. I am going to fail it, once you have the sources you need feel free to reapply. Side note - it was fairly obvious the article was not GA ready when applied, it's important that you only submit articles who are actually GA ready, this one needed a lot of work, do the next GA a favor and have all sources included and perhap ask the League of Copyeditors to give it the once over before you submit it again. Good luck.  MPJ-US  12:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
• @MPJ-DK: Thank you for the review. It helped to the amelioration of the output. It was Rafik Zribi who applied for GA status. I have not the idea to apply for GA status as I know that the work was not ready. However, I think that the application helped me to fix the problem in the work. I thank you for your efforts in ameliorating the work and I think that you will do well in the next rounds of the WikiCup and GA Cup. --Csisc (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)