Talk:Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto

Moved pop culture references

As with all the other serious topic on Shinto Kami, pop culture references belong in their own main article and have been moved there for accuracy. Also the names of the Kami are formal and are not just a first name. At the least we should be appropriately naming the Kami per the Japanese model. This is akin to using the "God" vs "god" in the Christian term. Shinto is a serious topic and not just a reference for video games, manga, anime, and pop culture. Shinto is the core of Japanese culture and the references are pervasive. With an expert historian and Shinto priest, I am working on an complete overhaul of all Shinto references for proper reference and terminology. Feel free to add to the pop culture discussion at the new article Shinto (pop culture) Takashi Ueki (talk) 06:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Tsukuyomi vs Tsukiyomi

I have never seen a Japanese source that used Tsukiyomi, instead of, or together with, Tsukuyomi. Could it be that Tsukiyomi is, in fact, an error? (probably created due to 月 usually being pronounced as tsuki)
～卍 JadziaLover ^{会話~投稿} 卐～ 00:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I am afraid that you are mistaken-"tsuki" is nihongo for "moon"-"tsuku" means to stick to something. A Shintoist myself, I have never heard of "Tsukuyomi"- let's sitck to what the Kojiki says and change the name back.-Merlin Storm 01:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• update*-Moved the page to Tsuki-Yomi as Tsuki and Yomi are two seperate kanji.

Actually, Tsukuyomi is the proper spelling. If you're unsure of the spelling, it's always good to check the corresponding article in Japanese (which lists Tsukuyomi as the proper spelling). --Confuzion 23:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Basil Hall Chamberlain and Dr. Motowori both list "Tsuki-Yomi-no-Kami" as the proper translation in the side notes of the Kojiki. Websters Japanese-English dictionary 2005 list tsuki as the proper translation of moon. Dr. Eriko Sato of Stony Brook confirmed this in his book "Japanese for Dummies". I think these professors are more trustworthy than an article which anyone can edit.Merlin Storm 16:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Chamberlain's translation of the Kojiki was done in 1882. Tsukuyomi is the modern spelling/interpretation of the name. In the more definitive The Cambridge History of Japan, edited by Kozo Yamamura, from p.353 in "Early Kami Worship" by Matsumae Takeshi, the spelling is listed as Tsukuyomi. I browsed the Japanese talk back for Tsukuyomi, and it appears that the modern spelling/pronunciation of "Tsukuyomi" is generally preferred; Tsukiyomi apparently isn't an invalid spelling, but it's deprecated.--Confuzion 19:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Idiots and Websters are less than 5 years old and written by native Japanese. I googled "Tsukuyomi" and mostly got stuff about the anime-Tsukiyomi and Tsuki-Yomi got fewer articles, but they were all aboout the kami. We may want to take this up with the Wikiproject Shinto people just to be certain though.Merlin Storm 23:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't speak Japanese, but it's given as Tsuki-yomi in a direct translation of the 8th century Nihongi here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ANCJAPAN/CREAT3.HTM Dybryd 07:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• I do read Japanese, and I've been semi-seriously studying Japanese etymologies for several years.  :)

Part of the confusion inherent in this article, and indeed with the underlying answer to this question, is that the Old Japanese word for "moon" (月) was apparently either tsuku or tsuki, depending on the context. Much as English a changes to an in certain contexts, so too did the Japanese word change. I'm not certain of the exact mechanics; Bendono (talk · contribs) appears to be more the expert in Old Japanese matters, but he's been less active of late. At any rate, the so-called "bound" form of the noun ("bound" because it's the form used in compounds) was tsuku, while the "unbound" form (when used as a standalone noun) was tsuki. I've read some things that suggest that the unbound form is actually the result of the bound form fusing with an ancient Japanese emphatic nominative particle i, which might be cognate with the modern Korean nominative particle i. Whatever the case, this unbound form became the only form used in modern Japanese, except for these rare cases of compound words that survived into the modern era.

FWIW, a few observations about usage in other sources:

• The Man'yōshū only uses the Tsukuyomi reading, and contains zero instances of Tsukiyomi. Text available online here.
• Shogakukan's native-JA 国語大辞典 (Big Japanese Dictionary) has entries under both Tsukuyomi and Tsukiyomi, but the latter just says basically "see Tsukuyomi".
• Ditto for the Daijirin native-JA dictionary. See a version of Daijirin's Tsukuyomi entry at the Kotobank aggregator lookup site here (in Japanese), and the Tsukiyomi entry here.
• The Shinmeikai native-JA dictionary is smaller than the previous two, and my fifth-edition copy only has an entry for Tsukiyomi.
• The Weblio aggregator lookup site here shows entries from the JA WP page with both the main Tsukuyomi reading and the alternate Tsukiyomi, and from the 短編小説作品名辞典 (Dictionary of Short Novel Titles) with just the Tsukuyomi reading.

My general impression from what I've seen so far is that Tsukuyomi is thus the "main" reading, while Tsukiyomi may be regarded as an alternate.

HTH, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

"uncertain gender"?

I only know a little about Japanese mythology, but I've never heard of Tsukuyomi referred to as anything but male. In what sources is he female or ambiguous? Dybryd 06:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

His/her gender is never referenced in any of the material and the only reason that male is believed to be likely is because Tsukuyomi attacks and kills Uke Mochi. This "attacking" behavior is considered male-like and actually that's all there is to which gender Tsukuyomi could be.-Revth (talk) 09:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert but it seems that all the 'male' Kami have names that end with "no-Mikoto" like Susanoo-no-Mikoto and Ninigi-no-Mikoto whereas the female ones (like Amaterasu-ōmikami) don't. Ōyamatsumi-no-Mikoto is male and he has two daughters called Konohanasakuya-hime and Iwa-Naga for example. --Tyrfing (talk) 09:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Izanami-no-mikoto is a female. It's just a title; it doesn't have anything to do with gender. --Osarusan 05:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Osarusan (talk • contribs)

Shinto The Kami Way, by Sokoyo Ono, has (Tsuki-yomi-no-mikoto) and is listed as a goddess; female. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.129.92.62 (talk) 22:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

To make the issue even muddier, reference to Roberts 2010 I just added consider Tsukuyomi male but acknowledges that some tales consider Tsukuyomi to be female, thus a goddess. While this issue is settled, I don't think we should we cause all changes of gender from the current male to female and vice versa to be marked as vandalism. Easwarno1 (talk) 18:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• FWIW, Tsukuyomi is explicitly described as male in at least two poems in the Man'yōshū, specifically poem #1372 here, where we find the text Tsukuyomi wotoko (月讀<壮>士) “Moon-reading man, Tsukuyomi man”, and poem #985 here, with the text Tsukuyomi wotoko (月讀<壮>子) “Moon-reading man (boy?), Tsukuyomi man (boy?)”. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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