Talk:True Pole

A fact from True Pole appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 29 December 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that a stereotypical True Pole is a Roman Catholic?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/True Pole.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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~~... that a True Pole is a Roman Catholic?~~
- ALT1:~~... that Polish nationalists said that General Władysław Anders was "not a Pole" due to his Baltic German, Protestant origin?~~
- ALT2:~~... that according to Michał Nogaś, the number of Polish citizens excluded from being "True Poles" is growing, and includes those who do not support the ruling party?~~ Source: https://wyborcza.pl/7,75968,26300584,wzor-na-prawdziwego-polaka.html

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Oaths to Hitler

Created by Lembit Staan (talk). Nominated by Buidhe (talk) at 09:13, 1 November 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Date, size, refs, neutrality, hook, copyvio spotcheck, QPQ, all ok, with a strong preference to the short main hook. ALT2 is from a newspaper and debatable, and alt1 is historical trivia about a single individual. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:55, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide an inline cite for the hook fact in the article per WP:DYK#Cited hook. Yoninah (talk) 19:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Yoninah:The correct hook would be ALT0a: ... that a stereotypical True Pole is a Roman Catholic? ( only at the beginning of the 20th century they came to mean the declaration that the only proper Pole ought to be a Catholic - Brian Porter-Szűcs, "The Birth of the 'Polak-Katolik'", Sprawy Narodowościowe, no. 49, 2017, doi:10.11649/sn.1280 Lembit Staan (talk) 06:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Seems fine to me (for the record). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:47, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Lembit Staan: this is a hook, designed to catch the reader's eye and get him to click on the article to read more. But we cannot promote it without an inline cite for the hook fact in the article. This applies to this sentence: A particular trait of "True Poles" is their adherence to Roman Catholicism. If this is not cited by the end of this week, the nomination will be marked for closure as unsuccessful. Yoninah (talk) 17:15, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I already answered: "the only proper Pole ought to be a Catholic". If you have problems with comprehension, not my problem. I dislike DYK anyway. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It has been 2 weeks since I requested an inline cite for the hook fact. Has this nomination been abandoned? Yoninah (talk) 12:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It has been FOUR weeks since I answered the request: it is Brian Porter-Szűcs, footnoted in the article. You really have troubles with reading comprehension. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lembit Staan, it has recently been suggested to me that editors who feel it's okay to drag DYK and DYK reviewers through the mud should have an automatic fail on their nomination. That might be an idea here.
Meanwhile, I am not talking to you. I am addressing Buidhe, the nominator of the original hook which has been approved and seconded by one of our regular reviewers. But this sentence needs an inline cite to verify the hook fact: As a popular saying, among several versions, goes, "prawdziwy Polak to katolik" ("a true Pole is a Catholic").. Yoninah (talk) 18:02, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lembit Staan Oh, you seem to think that I wanted a cite placed on this template? No, it needs to be added to the article. Yoninah (talk) 18:03, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The original hook is false statement and nothing in the hook identifies it as such. (Imagine the DYK for blood libel says "...that Jews extract blood from Christian children"). I suggested the correct version of the hook, ALT0a (also approved by the reviewer). That said, you didnt identify which exactly sentence needs a footnote, hence the miscommunication. The sentence I cited, "the only proper Pole ought to be a Catholic" does support the hook as well, hence my previous answer. The sentence you want does have a reference a bit below. We dont' put footnotes on every word, do we? Anyway, I am duplicating it. Lembit Staan (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. questions for refs must be directed to article author, not the nom. The nom is not supposed to know the subject, they only find it interesting. Therefore I am answering. Lembit Staan (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thank you for the explanation. I will take another look at this later.
I had no idea you were the page creator because the name given above is a redlink. Should I change the credit line on this template? Yoninah (talk) 18:34, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Apologies for all that happened here. Yes, I changed my name recently. Redlink fixed. I am not particularly proud of this article. I created it to make a point :-) in discussions about the "True Scotsman". Next thing, I will probably write about the "True Russian". Lembit Staan (talk) 22:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was under the impression that Piotrus's remark, Seems fine to me (for the record) was referring to ALT0. But no matter. ALT0a is cited to an offline source and cited inline. Restoring tick for ALT0a. Striking unused hooks. Yoninah (talk) 20:51, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We need an article about stereotype of Poles

This is an interesting topic, but it seems a bit narrow and WP:ORish - but after looking at some academic literature, the concept is likely notable. Still, there are some synonyms. The term "true Pole", or prawdziwy Polak, is used, but it not very well defined. Some scholarly work that mentions it in more depth seems to be discussing it in as part of the closely related, and even synonymous, stereotypes of Poles. I'll bold synonyms:

[1]: "W środowiskach endeckich i postendeckich żywe jest wartościowanie obywateli Rzeczypospolitej w kategoriach typu dobry Polak czy zwłaszcza prawdziwy Polak, przy czym o tym, kto jest dobrym czy prawdziwym Polakiem, decydują oczywiście liderzy stosownych ugrupowań"
[2]: "zadziwiająca postać, na pozór wewnętrznie sprzeczna, mianowicie Polak-katolik. Inne odmiany tej postaci to „prawdziwy Polak” albo „wszechpolak”. "

It should also be noted that the term is used abroad, see for example [3] and [4], discussing the stereotypes of "True Poles" in Ukraine and Belarussia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:53, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've been thinking about this for quite some time, looking at Category:Ethnic and racial stereotypes. The article is to have two major parts: "endostereotypes" and exostereotypes (endostereotype, exostereotype - no articles either; may be I will throw in a nanostub endostereotype and exostereotype and "spread the words" across relewant articles). In fact' I've accumulated such a wealth of refs from German, East Slavic and Lithianian sources, so I am afraid do start writing, now that I see all the ramifications: stereotypes in time, among certain social/political groups, about Polish social/enthic subgroups, etc. The article is to be HUGE, man. Also there are some are unclear issues, eg., whether Sarmatism is/was a stereotype or a worldview? It definitely gave rise to some stereotypes, such as "bez karabeli ani z pościeli" ("don't come out of the bed without karabela") or "bez spodni, ale z szablą" ("without pants, but with szabla"), the latter one about petty szlachta. Not to say about the genesis of the very concept of "Poles" as a nationality. Lembit Staan (talk) 20:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is Nogaś undue?

A big part of the article is a list prepared by a single journalist, including jokes about cyclists. I think it is WP:UNDUE. This article can be expanded with scholarly sources instead, just enter "prawdziwy Polak" into Google Scholar for dozen+ good sources. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:57, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The list can be trimmed, it is kinda repetitive, too. As for expansion, I don't have much time to write well-researched articles. I just filled the gap. In fact, I was thinking that Pole-Catholic [pl] deserves a separate page in enwiki as well, but maybe later, when this one fleshes out better. Lembit Staan (talk) 19:39, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization

Shouldn't "polak" in 'prawdziwy polak' and 'prawdziwi polacy' begin with a capital 'P'...? Both English and Polish language use capital letters in names of nations. --CiaPan (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thx. YOu should have done this yourself, by the way. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:53, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, possibly. I was not sure, however, if that is not an estabilished error, carrying any special meaning or connotations. --CiaPan (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]