Talk:Tripoli protests and clashes (February 2011)

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 February 2011. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Africa: Libya Low‑importance

	Africa portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Libya portal This article is supported by WikiProject Libya (assessed as Low-importance).

Politics

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Military history: African B‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	African military history task force

Picture?

I can find a picture, could someone find a picture of this battle in this horrible war(I want to inform people because I think the war is horrible, war in general(get it?) is horrible and silly). SomeDudeWithAUserName (talk) 22:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we can put the map currently on 2011 Libyan uprising here too, unless a good photo can be found... Metaknowledge (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I used your idea, Metaknowledge. Thanks :) 216.105.64.140 (talk) 05:11, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I don't see the map OR a photo on the page, did it get deleted from there? Metaknowledge (talk) 15:23, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since the person who deleted claimed it was "outdated" (partly true) and "unrelated" (partly true), I'm trying out a pre-protests photo of Green Square, Tripoli, but I need sizing help and this is probably a bad photo choice anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metaknowledge (talk • contribs) 16:12, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I found some photos from Tajura district clashes with the Security Forces in Tripoli on the early days. Permision from the Associated Press required.

http://thinkmario.com/2011/03/gadhafi-keeps-tight-grip-on-capital/

Haegmn (talk) 20:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Old article.

I would like to point out that article (reference) is from the 21st. 4 days before the other 2 battles. Vidboy11 (talk) 22:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References should basically match the placement of the statements they reference within the timeline now. Metaknowledge (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Issues

A few issues about this article:

1: Is this battle currently taking place or should it occur soon?
2: Should this article be named Battle of Tripoli or Battle for Tripoli?
3: Are there any pics of this battle as it takes place?

Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 03:09, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should this be named a battle? What is the Wikipedia definition of a battle? Metaknowledge (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a stub?

Should we delete the stub tag now? Metaknowledge (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did, you can thank me. 216.105.64.140 (talk) 04:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And I will. Thank you. Metaknowledge (talk) 15:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Premature article

This "battle" has not taken place yet, and the article is a crystal ball. There have been protest marches, demonstrations, assassination, skirmishes and mass murders, but when was there an actual "battle" between two armies? Was there a "Battle of Cairo" before Mubarak was removed? This term demeans actual battles such as the Battle of the Somme. See List of battles. Nothing which has happened so far in this conflict in Tripoli has any place in that list. Edison (talk) 06:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fighting has happened in the suburbs and amid rallies, but if we are to define a battle as being between two armies, then this article needs to be renamed, but not deleted. As it is, the model of the modern revolution usually involves semi-organized PEOPLE, not armies, and this is reflected by the nature of the entire uprising. The importance each side has allocated to Tripoli, the violence that has already occurred there, and Gaddafi's decision to stay there all are enough to requisite this article, but probably not as a "battle." Unfortunately, this is the only term I have seen in the admittedly sensationalist media. Also, it is good to note that as a whole, Egypt was not an uprising quite like Libya; about 400 died in Egypt and Gaddafi's warplanes and mercenaries have lead to an estimated 1000 to 2000 deaths already. We need to decide whether this is a renaming issue, as I believe it is, or a deletion issue, as you do. Metaknowledge (talk) 15:09, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Struggle for Tripoli"? Metaknowledge (talk) 15:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps survey what mainstream press sources have called it. The action or front now seems to be in Misurata and Zawiyah, mles from Tripoli. Earlier there wee protests, repression and mass killing of protestors in Tripoli, none of of which terms make for a catchy title. Edison (talk) 00:03, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article is badly named, but I think we should keep it, as it is relevant. Perhaps renaming it to something like "2011 Libyan Uprising in Tripoli."Piper2000ca (talk) 01:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get rid of the deletion tag, then, and replace it with a renaming tag? Metaknowledge (talk) 19:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We can't usually do that, the AFD discussion stays open for seven days. Off2riorob (talk) 21:50, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mitiga International Airport

I am not seeing any reports confirming this - Gadaffi is reportedly in control of Tripoli and searching around after a few days I can't find any confirmation of this at all. I think is is a false claim, has anyone got confirmation of this - also there appears some discrepancy as one cite says a military airport and the other a civilian. Off2riorob (talk) 21:57, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

multiple sources have confirmed the fall of mitiga... take a look at the refferences. Rafy talk 12:47, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The situation remains unclear. Is this a civilian or military airport ? Is it still under control of the anti-qaddafis troops or not ?--Agitateur (talk) 01:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First question: The info panel at the right-hand side of Mitiga International Airport says that it's a dual civil-military airport, and the content of the article suggests the same thing but doesn't say it clearly. Boud (talk) 22:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No idea regarding the 2nd qn. BTW, Mitiga 11 km east of the city centre, while Tripoli International Airport is 34 km south of the city centre; these are not the same airport (in case anyone might think that). Boud (talk) 23:34, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Map

The map for this article, [[1]], does not reflect what the article says - whichever one is correct needs to be verified and the other one needs to be altered. The article says Mitiga airport and Tajura/Tajoura have been taken by opposition forces; the map disagrees. Metaknowledge (talk) 05:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

It was proposed in this section that Tripoli protests and clashes (February 2011) be renamed and moved to 2011 Libyan uprising in Tripoli.

The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment.

Links: current log • target log

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus is for a name change to 2011 Tripoli clashes. MacMed^talk _stalk 03:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2011 Libyan uprising (Tripoli) → 2011 Libyan uprising in Tripoli or Tripoli clashes — the current title is horrid, I suggest a name change. 184.144.163.245 (talk) 06:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support, per the nominator's reasoning. GoodDay (talk) 06:44, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
disagree, the nominators horrid reasoning. The reason its hard to create a title for this article is that there doesn't appear to have been an uprising in Tripoli apart from Gaddafi's uprising of himself and unless there actually is something that resembles a Libyan uprising in Tripoli then a couple of lines in the main article is a better place for this content to sit. Off2riorob (talk) 09:25, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment that's a reason for deletion, not a reason to keep the title the way it is. 184.144.160.156 (talk) 10:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to Tripoli clashes per nom. --92.4.76.233 (talk) 19:41, 11 March 2011 (UTC) - — 92.4.76.233 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Support to move to Tripoli clashes. The current title simply put doesn't feel right and I think the title Tripoli clashes would be more proper. EkoGraf (talk) 21:43, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to 2011 Libyan uprising in Tripoli, Oppose a move to Tripoli clashes because the title is vague, I think it should at least contain the date, and ideally a reference to the wider uprising Pi (Talk to me! ) 03:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment 2011 Libyan uprising in Tripoli is not that much different from the current title, almost no change in fact. And I don't understand what do you mean by the title is vague? However, I do agree with you a date has to be in the title, so maybe the best title would be 2011 Tripoli clashes. What do you think? EkoGraf (talk) 20:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support because it's better than what we have (although it will need a 2011 stuck on it like EkoGraf suggested). However, unless we can find multiple media sources using this term, it may not be a good idea to be basically inventing a title for this. Metaknowledge (talk) 15:56, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In any case, the current title simply feels wrong on so many levels. EkoGraf (talk) 00:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per multiple reasons given above.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse move to Tripoli clashes; the current title is strange. -- 92.4.64.200 (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to 2011 Libyan uprising in Tripoli or (even better) 2011 Tripoli clashes. The current title is really bizarre; I have no idea why it was named as such. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support I like 2011 Tripoli Clashes. The title now looks provisiona, normal during the early days. 88.1.141.55 (talk) 06:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to Tripoli clashes. The title as it is now is unnecessarily clunky and verbose. BalanceFish (talk) 22:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note It's been almost two weeks since the debate started and a majority concencuss is that the article should be renamed to Tripoli clashes or 2011 Tripoli clashes. Is there someone who could close this and rename the article? EkoGraf (talk) 02:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

protests happening

While everybody is busy discussing the name of this article, Tripolitans are protesting against Qadafi. Some are also protesting against the UNSC Resolution 1973 intervention and probably will be described as pro-Qadafi (though the reality might be more complex), and i think there are overtly pro-Qadafi rallies as well - these need to be added whatever the article name turns out to be.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/ archive says 22:50 @LibyanDictator tweets: Reports of a peaceful protest Tripoli met with live bullets, 3 martyred and clashes continue meaning the evening of Mon 21 March local time. Maybe by 22 March there should be more mainstream sources reporting the protests and giving enough details to be acceptable as WP:RS. Boud (talk) 00:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article is specificly about those initial clashes where troops allegedly killed 300 people in the first days of the war. EkoGraf (talk) 02:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That might have been the original intention, but the AfD discussion took place without that being the obvious definition. Also, what is now the "February clashes" section doesn't say much about the killings of wounded people in hospitals, etc etc - we only seem to have this info in the infobox (with several refs). Someone needs to clean up, but so far, it seems like nobody wishes to/has the time to... In any case, we can split off a "second phase" (e.g. April?) of Tripoli clashes/protests/etc. from this article if they become significant enough. Until then, IMHO it makes sense to focus on Tripoli events in this article. The recent Thomson Reuters article claims there's an active urban guerrilla resistance going on in Tripoli. Boud (talk) 19:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

300 rebels killed

Those links doesn't say they were opposition fighters those who died. I believe they were civilians. In the first source, it says "The Libyan government said on Tuesday that 300 people had died in the protests, including 111 soldiers.", which clearly states that not all the deads were rebels, and seems to me that those 111 soldiers where loyal to Gaddafi instead.

I would like some opinions on it, because I think we should at least change where it appears that rebels had 300 casualties to civilians. And state "unknown" on both sides, instead of only on Gaddafi's forces side.--Andres arg (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It has been agreed per a discussion two months ago they are all regarded as opposition protestors. They were not rebels at that time, they were civilians protesting but part of the opposition. Also, the 111 soldiers you were talking about were killed in the east of the country at Benghazi, Baida and Derna. EkoGraf (talk) 22:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]