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Archive 1

Article needs editing

This article needs editing. There is already a decent article on H. Roe Bartle, we don't need all this info on him here. This article needs to focus only on the Tribe, its purpose, history, etc. --Emb021 1 July 2005 20:03 (UTC)

I've edited, and trimmed down what was here. Someone basically copied over the wordy history of M-O-S from the Pony Express MOS page. Not good, as that might be considered a copyright violation. I tried to bring the page more in-line with the OA page, but others with first hand knowledge of MOS need to take it from here, and fill in the gaps. --Emb021 20:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

---

I'd also try and make it a little more objective. Right now there are some subjective parts that aren't neccessarily bad or incorrect but could be considered POV. exempli graitia

"Our council also consistently wins top honors in program quality, and Mic-O-Say plays no small part in those honors. Our dancers are in demand at many Scout and civic functions, and have performed at both National and World Scout Jamborees. O" -- Capi crimm(too lazy to sign in)

There is no reason to delete this section until it can actually fail a fact check.

Removed due to exaggeration and vandalism about the program. Please do not readd. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flyingember (talk • contribs) 01:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Ok, I was blunt in the change, the wording as to legacy and any professionals visiting is improved. The Tribe of Mic-O-Say is purely a local honor society not approved or recognized by the BSA, only by the local council. I am truly amazed how anyone would think or believe an Adult run and membership controlled would be an enhancement to the Scouting Program. All but maybe 1 of the methods of scouting are violated. It is not democratic. Control is in the hands of adults, not youth. Yes, I can name a dozen OA lodges were youth control is non-existent.

I reedited the page. It should be no different than some none BSA approved program such as Tribe of Tahquitz or Wolfboro Pioneers. These are local programs no different from Silver Tomahawk or Tribe of the Silver Marmot. There is no reason to give any one organization precdence over another. Unless there is a great movement to petition the Boy Scouts of America to change the decision made in 1948, there is only one youth run program for boys from 11-21 in Boy Scout program, and that is the Order of the Arrow. We do not have any other official Boy Scout Program to provide leadership opportunity's although the current Exploring/Venturing progam may provide this. Exploring/Venturing is not part of the Boy Scout program.

Cited books do not seem to exist

ISBN database searches for the ISBNs provided for the reference works cited in the current revision of this article fail to bring up any matches, something which makes me concerned that some of the added material -- or indeed the whole article -- may be an elaborate hoax. In the absence of any mainstream third-party verifiable reliable sources for this article, I have nominated it for deletion. If you wish to keep this article, please provide citations to independent mainstream reliable sources for the existence of this organization and the assertions in this article. -- Karada 12:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I won't argue or discuss the existence of the cited reference books. However, I strongly disagree with your statement about the article being "an elaborate hoax". Try doing a Google search on "Mic-O-Say". I started in the program almost 40 years ago, and I can attest to the accuracy of the bulk of the article. While there are flaws and mistakes within any article in Wikipedia, this one seems very accurate. -- User:RSStockdale Firebuilder Broken Buffalo of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say

Citations needed

I removed a bunch of items that were tagged as needing citations from Feb 2007 and April 2007, per WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR. These need to have some kind of verification that isn't self-published before they can come back. Justinm1978 15:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Good article

I'm pleased with thi article, its relative objectivity, and the lack of tribal secrets on it. StaticElectric 07:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Review

User:Gadget850/FAChelp

Content
  • Lead: Needs expansion; remove POV material
  • Results: Merge into Legacy section
  • History: Some statements are out of chronological order; move section down
  • Geiger Purpose: Is Geiger Purpose a group or what? If it is trying to explain the purpose of Camp Geiger then it misses the mark. If it is trying to explain the purpose of the Tribe, then it needs to go in the lead.
  • Organization: Needs expansion; merge material from Membership sections
  • Membership:
    • H. Roe Bartle and Membership: Geiger: I think this means that membership at the two camps is a bit different, but this is never really stated;
    • is it really a difference between camps or between councils?
    • Foxman needs to be better defined;
    • is it really an eagle claw or simulated
    • the material on paint responsibilities is not really membership, it belongs under organization
  • Needs a short overview of Scouting honor societies for context
  • Why is the OA not used in Pony Express Council?
  • How does HOAC use the Tribe and the OA? Do they work together or separately?
  • Never really states why the Tribe is important; needs to lock down notability
  • What other councils use the Tribe and how do they use it?
  • What do members actually do? Do they perform service projects?
Style
  • See WP:SCOUTMOS for more help
  • Needs reorganization for better flow; see WP:SCOUTMOS
  • To many one-sentence paragraphs
  • Needs infobox
  • Needs more references
Images
  • Needs logo
  • Needs active images
  • Image:Claws.jpg needs cleanup or replacement

--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


Charter Members of Mic-O-Say

Ned Gold Sr. is a charter member of Mic-o-Say. His Son Ned Gold jr. has picture of Mr. Gold with H Roe Bartel and one other charter members at Camp Adair. He willing to e-mail them to as soon as he locates them.

Sincerely

Leland Foland TTB Friendly Forest


I wonder about this since there has never been MOS at a camp Adair. The charter members were at Camp Carey/Camp Brinton/Camp Dan Sayre. --flyingember


The Original Mic-O-Say Tribe was located at Camp Brinton, which later was moved to Camp Geiger the current home of Mic-O-Say in the Pony Express Council. The second Mic-O-Say Tribe was started at Camp Dan Sayre which later was moved to the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation. This is the current home of Mic-O-Say in the HOA Council.Geiger Tribesman (talk) 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Mic_O_Say and OA

Can someone explain to me how Mic-O-Say is not in competition with the OA? Does OA also exist in these councils? Can someone be in both organizations? Rlevse 14:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

  • It's hypothetically possible. the HOAC has 2 camps, Theodore Naish scout reservation and Bartle. Bartle has Mic-O-Say, whereas Naish has OA. however, Naish is smaller, and has less camp sessions. although it's possible for scouts to go down outside of camp sessions to get into OA, most don't. and quite frankly, most who get into mic-o-say don't see the point of OA and view Mic-O-Say as much more desirable. i've heard personal accounts from scouts who are in OA and are both not sure what the point of it is and view it as inferior to m-o-s. those aren't necessarily my opinions, that's just a general consensus. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 07:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
So why do they think MicOSay is so much better? Even if this is so in the case you're talking about, that could be a reflection of the local OA lodge, not all OA lodges. Rlevse 10:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
    • it might be, but the fact is that Mic-o-say is an incredible and unique program, and there's really a comroderie and a sense of accomplishment and heritage. for me personally, both of my grandfathers were in the tribe, all of my uncles, my dad, and my brother and all my cousins who are guys. even among circles of friends not related with my own scout experience, there's a special connection with anyone who wears the claws. and i think a part of it is that it is a regional thing and that it is a very exclusive group (in the sense that there are only about 60,000 members), and that it's something that is really earned. almost all of my scout camp memories involve the tribe in some way, from my first opening ceremony to when the chieftain put my claws around my neck. Mic-O-Say is something that none forget even if the memories grow old. it's not that we hold OA in a low esteem, it's that we hold Mic-O-Say in a very high esteem. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 17:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

all the power to them, really. Mic-O-Say isn't here to "be better than OA". it's here to be it's own scouting honor system, and my point is that it does a really good job of being one. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 18:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


I just would like to say I am both a OA member and a tribesman and I think it is obvious that the OA is trying to compete with MOS. And MOS is just trying to continue its traditions. I think OA is a pathetic excuse for a Honor Scouting organization, they are just trying to suck up to national. And while I will continue to be a member of the OA, I think Mic-O-Say is the best part of scouts. ~Brave Crazy Copperhead

The Pony Express Council (Camp Geiger St. Joseph, MO) only has Mic-O-Say. The HOAC (H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation Osceola Mo.) has Mic-O-Say and OA, members in the HOAC can belong to both. I would agree with the statements above as I have had the privilege over the years to be a part of Mic-O-Say at Camp Geiger, but also to visit the Bartle Reservation. And several OA lodges. I have also visited Camp Eastman which has a Mic-O-Say/OA Tribe. Mic-O-Say is just like they said something that is earned thru hard work in not only your Scouting Unit but also your community. The Tribe is a special brotherhood and there is a bond that all tribesman have with each other. The Mic-O-Say program is an intricate part of Scouting in the Pony Express Council as Camp Geiger is one of the top 10 Scout Camps, and since the councils inception has produced almost 4800 Eagle Scouts. The Camp this year alone will have campers not only from the state of Missouri, but also, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Colorado & Texas just to name a few. I think this alone speaks volume for the impact the Tribe of Mic-O-Say has in both the PEC and HOAC. I would make this open invitation for anyone who is not a member of Mic-O-Say to come to Camp Geiger any Thursday night during camping season to view our tapping ceremony this will give you a since of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say for info go to http://www.ponyexpressbsa.orgGeiger Tribesman (talk) 06:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Mic-O-Say and Order of the Arrow "Competition"

To Whom It Concerns:

I am both a Tribesman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation, but I am also a Brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow in the Nampa-Tsi Lodge (the Lodge for the Great Rivers Council).

To address the question of whether or not there is competition between the two programs, I would have to say that yes, there is; however, I do not believe that Mic-O-Say is doing the competing. The ones doing the competing are the Order of the Arrow lodges in the councils surrounding the Heart of America Council. Being a member of the Nampa-Tsi Lodge in the Great Rivers Council, I see this competition all of the time. The Great Rivers Council camps are struggling greatly, and I am sure that many other camps in other councils are in the same boat. Numbers for campers are down tremendously, and this is a major problem. The problem is this: Truthfully, the programs at the camps just aren't quality programs. When you go to Bartle, you can witness the quality program it has to offer: the attractive Mic-O-Say, the large number of program areas, the large amount of merit badges offered, the facilities, etc. Even before I entered the Tribe, I saw the program as superb in comparison to the program offered at the camps in my home council. The whole issue with low numbers of campers in the Great Rivers Council came up in the past few years. The council has been trying to find some way to better its program. They just recently organized a program that is supposed to go into effect this summer camping season, and when I was at meetings for the ratification of the program, it came up several times that they had to better the program to compete with outside camping programs in other councils (Mic-O-Say being the targeted program). And it isn't just competition in that matter. At many different in-council events that I go to, I get downgraded -literally- for being in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. At several OA events, I am told to remove my Mic-O-Say claws [although I refuse and don't]. I am shunned as being a out-of-council camper by several. When I went to National Jamboree I was somewhat harassed for being a Tribesman. Now, this isn't everyone; however, it does seem like many people. When I go to Bartle, I am not shunned for being an Arrowmen. I am an active member in both programs. I don't know why there is this conflict, but I don't agree with any of it. It is true, though, that the Order of the Arrow program has become diluted over the years. You could ask almost Arrowman and he would say that. Now, I see the spirit there, but I don't see a well organized program. The Tribe is very organized. Some think that the Tribe is too adult-run. Now, it is true that the leadership is composed of adults, but this is to assure that the Tribe carries on consistently throughout ages to come. I see it as financial security and as a way to stabilize the program. The only thing I see differently with OA is that the leadership is sometimes composed of young men who are either too busy to commit to the program fully, or they totally end up blowing it off, but in the Tribe, it is the adults' jobs to see things through and to make sure they get done. The other day I overheard somebody say "It's the adults that make the boys go to Bartle." (This being said in regards to complaining about out-of-council camping troops like ours.) This is wrong. It is the boys that decide to come back to Bartle every year. The Tribe wouldn't survive without the spirit of the Scouts that enter it and become involved in it. For our troop, there just isn't anything in our council to keep Scouts wanting to come back. When you look at the return rate for campers in the Heart of America Council, the number is approximately 4.5 years on average for each Scout. In the Great Rivers Council, this number is two years less. There just must be something special that makes the Heart of America Council return rate this high, and I believe that I have covered this [multiple times, most likely].

I love both programs. I see the good in both, and I am glad that I experience both. I go to all functions in both.

In Scouting,

Adam Morton -- Brotherhood Member of the Nampa-Tsi Lodge; Warrior Shadow of Silent Thunderbird in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say

This doesn't explain how they're not in competition if they're both honor camper programs; it mainly dwells on poor organization and camp programs. Rlevse 21:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I would have to choose to respond to the above article. I have formerly been the Lodge chief of Heart of America council's lodge, Tamegonit. Everything you said is completely true, but completely reciprocal as well. I have been told repeatedly when I attended camp at Bartle to take my arrowhead off, being cited as being at the "wrong" camp. I have also ensured that several youth staff members would not be hired again the following camping season. I agree with you completely- the Tribe has a very stable structure, and its longevity is almost assured for many years to come. As a past lodge chief, I recognized this fact greatly. The one thing I tried to do most of all was to assure some form of continuity in Tamegonit's lodge structure. This is an extremely difficult feat to accomplish because it is youth run, and youth are elected. Further, we often have to turn to Mic-O-Say leadership for capable adults to advise our youth. There have been advisers in our lodge that are in many ways, detrimental to the youth leadership structure, and that is because we cannot find adults willing to dedicate themselves fully to OA every year. However, if you go ahead and take a step back, and look at the big picture, what you see is fairly amazing. Tamegonit Lodge is youth-run, in a council that is not always willing to provide the best adult support they can. This often leaves youth on their own, or working with too many advisers for their own good. The fact that the lodge still exists with youth leadership, should be considered an extraordinary feat. I ask, and I think you know the true answer, would you have been able to lead a lodge when you are 17 years old and in high school? I think the vast majority of people would say no, they would not have the leadership skills or the committment to do so. Even if OA is not the greatest program around, it is still amazing that it has existed on youth leadership for all these years. I know that in recent years, both groups in HOAC have moved to reach out to one another. We accept that we are different groups, but we share many similiarities and can help each other. This is most visible in the fact that every single presiding chief of Mic-O-Say is invited each and every year to participate in lodge events. Whether they choose to or not is up to them. This past year, the chief has been extraordinarily helpful and was even willing to come to an OA event to discuss the differences between the two groups in our council. It was heated for sure, but it was worth it.

One other fact you may be unaware of (unless you are familar with the leaders of the HOAC and Mic-O-Say, you probably haven't heard this), most of the upper level leaders strongly support OA because of the reciprocal benefits it has on Mic-O-Say. OA provides youth with experience in leadership, who can later go on to be leaders in the tribe. This is not to say it is a stepping stone organization, it is just the natural order of the two groups because of the age difference. Tamegonit leaders (at least the upper level ones) strongly support Mic-O-Say for the same reason. It helps keep youth interested in scouting, and subsequently helps OA's membership.

I strongly support both organizations, and have worked with both groups. They both have shortcomings, but it is only when you fail to see the positives in one group or the other that we have a competition. They are not in competition, they are in cooperation.

In the okaw valley council there is a program called "The Tribe of Manasseh", it rips off almost all of the practices of the tribe of mic-o-say even using the same handbook with the title changed. As a summer camp staff member I saw that with every week of camp the tribe called out 2/3 of all in attendance. They are adult run while our OA lodge even leaves the preparation and execution of events with hundreds of people, like conclaves, fellowships, and Dinners, totally under the control of the youth. At the callouts for the Manasseh only adults have speaking parts and for the OA only youth speak. Most staffers refuse to be apart of the program, even once sabotaging a callout ceremony after a staffer who had made it clear that he had not wanted to participate, and contacted the man in charge of the callout personally, was called out. A preference is given to the Manasseh at camp, leading to the OA paying one of it's members a full salary to work on staff and coordinate the work of the order. The Manasseh have a new council ring while the OA use one that is falling apart (the benches are about 15 years old. In recent years the staff has put on an alternative campfire to entertain the troops choosing not to participate, which is a growing number, in the Manasseh. It is traditional for them to place a white band around the head of newly inducted scouts and they are not allowed to speak for one day, while I admit that this does not interfere with the teaching of classes as they are allowed to speak under pavilions, this is summer camp aren't you there to have fun? I have yet to find a use for the Manasseh, aside from getting scouts interested in fake Native American dances, they have no outings of their own, do little or no service work for the camp, and exist only during summer camp. I also think it strange to name a pseudo-native american fraternal association after one of the lost tribes of Israel. -a staffer at camp joy

If you have related content that can improve this article that is backed up by reliable sources, then please add it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 10:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Okaw Valley Council merged with Trails West Council to become the Lewis and Clark Council. Lewis and Clark Council maintained the program called "The Tribe of Manasseh" until "the leadership of the Tribe of Mannaseh met on the evening of October 7th, 2014 to discuss the future of the Mannaseh program. The participation by campers and existing tribesmen, along with the ability to conduct a quality program has been very much on the minds of the tribe's leadership this year. After considerable discussion, and with sad hearts, we unanimously decided to put the tribe into a "hold" status (discontinued) until further notice." To provide closure to many members, and to allow those who were who were previously called for membership/advancement, but were unable to complete their journey, the tribe held one final ceremony on 2PM on Saturday, May 2nd at Camp Joy. ref: ref: http://www.mannaseh.org/docs/newsletter201411.pdf

Since that time, Lewis and Clark Council "merged" with the Greater St. Louis Area Council on 1 JAN 2017, while the "new" council keep the Greater St. Louis Area Council name.


ADVANCEMENT

Both the Pony Express Council and the Heart of America Council have one of the highest Eagle Scout percentages in BSA directly attributable to the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. The Tribe gives motivation to return to our camps every summer, continue to stay active in our troops even during high school, and to continue to advance in Scout rank. In fact, the top paint stations in the Tribe can only be attained by becoming an Eagle Scout.

To help support the above arguement that eagle and retention rates in the HOAC can be attribited to MOS, it should be stated that the PEC also has very high numbers in these categories. The PEC has the only other official Tribe in the country (also the orginal). We do not have an OA lodge, although, as our numbers have been growing at record rates over the last decade we do have several out of council campers that are also members of the OA. Most of these out of council campers (from as far away as Illinois, Texas, and Colorado) that visit our camp -Camp Geiger- fall in love with the MOS program and several scouts request that their leaders allow them to return in future summers. Again, most do. Also, our eagle rate is well over the 4% national average. Because our page is currently under construction, I really don't have much evidence to help support all of this. I can say that I am originally from the HOAC and have attended both camps there, so I do speak from a somewhat knowledgeable background of the Kansas City region. If you really want the best evidence I can offer you, then I would recommend that you bring your troop to either camp Geiger or Bartle in the near future and see it all for yourself. I can garantee you won't be disappointed. Finally, the only piece of hard evidence that I do have to offer is an article from the National BSA homepage that states how our very small council (a little over 3,000 campers attended Geiger in 2006) was able to raise over 2 million dollars for camp improvements. In the article PEC directors attribute the fund raising success to the regional support of the Tribe and it's many loyal members. Link Below. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=pony+express+council In regards to the other posts about competition, I wouldn't say there is much in the PEC. As I stated, we don't have an OA lodge. In previous years, I can admit that I have seen many accounts of OA members being frowned upon at Geiger. Those "old school" thoughts of the past are behind the current leadership. It is one of our goals to welcome all out of council campers and introduce them to our Tribe not in a way that shuns other honor programs, but allows them to see our program and choose for themselves to return or not for future camping seasons. ````


Again, this does not address the Eagle Scot metric and is an assertion without fact. If there is any metric of membership retention it should include Webelos-to-scout transition.

````

What is the point here? Local Honor Societies have existed for many years. If the fact that the Central Region, BSA can not deal with them, what can I say? In the other 3 regions, this is not a question. If you can give reason for the Boy Scouts of America to rescind its 1948 decision that there is only one National Honor Society in the Boy Scouts of America then there is no competion, Order of the Arrow is fully integrated and there is a specfic youth leadership position to support this. The Order of the Arrow Troop Representive.

```` In response to the idea of competition on a whole, I believe that both programs have similar goals in mind that not only encourage the scout oath and law, but also encourage scouts to stay on the path to eagle and receive all there is to receive from the scouting program. This is the thinking that the current MOS leadership believes and therefore sees no sense in responding in a non-scouting attitude towards any honor program. ````

These are only assertions without facts. Please provide evidence.

````

These are local programs no different from Silver Tomahawk or Tribe of the Silver Marmot. There is no reason to give any one organization precdence over another. Unless there is a great movement to petition the Boy Scouts of America to change the decision made in 1948, there is only one youth run program for boys from 11-21 in Boy Scout program, and that is the Order of the Arrow. We do not have any other official Boy Scout Program to provide leadership opportunity's although the current Exploring/Venturing progam may provide this. Exploring/Venturing is not part of the Boy Scout program.

Exploring is not part of the BSA. Venturing IS part of the BSA. The Boy Scout program is but one of 3 programs within the BSA (the other two being Cub Scout and Venturing).

Significance

Is this really significant? I mean, I'm all for inclusion when it comes to wikipedia articles, but for a group that makes up less than 1% of councils in the entire organization, one that isn't even recognized by that organization, the article is very extensive and elaborate. I think there should be some mention of the groups relative insignificance in the overall organization. Thoughts? Jheiv (talk) 23:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It already stated that it is only used in two councils, and you have expanded on it. If it weren't for the use in multiple councils, I would have proposed merging it into the council article, as we have done with some other honor societies. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 23:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
On the gripping hand, I think you could make a good case for creating Pony Express Council and merging this article into it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 00:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Golden Eagle

There is a very similar program to this at Camp Hansen of the Coronado Area Council, known as the Tribe of Golden Eagle. Does anyone know if this would warrant a section in this article, or perhaps a new article altogether? --Ks0stm (T•C) 03:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

If it is a program only of the Coronado Area Council, then it belongs in the council article, which currently consists of one sentence in Scouting in Kansas. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 07:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The Golden Eagle program is only operated at that council's camps, but any person who is eligible for entry can enter the tribe, regardless of what their council is. I'm guessing that since the Golden Eagle is only at the Coronado Area Council camps, it still belongs in the article of the council, so I will start work on the section in my sandbox, and transfer it to the council article when i finish it.
If you have a real itch to do some writing, work up the council section to the standard of Stonewall Jackson Area Council and split it to a new article. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

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Moved from article

There is the following to consider http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2008/07/scout-society-stereotypes-indians.html.

The above was added to the article by User:71.197.234.174. I think it belongs here. --Bduke (Discussion) 08:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, by all means do not leave discussion of cultural appropriation on the main page but do so on the OA page.KeenWh (talk) 02:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Cultural Appropriation

The following needs to be part of this: http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2008/07/scout-society-stereotypes-indians.html

Scouting must ever be sensitive.— Preceding unsigned comment added by KeenWh (talk • contribs) - moved from article. Bduke (Discussion) 12:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The link is to a blog; see WP:SPS. --  Gadget850 talk 07:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

So without using the appropriate edit tools, I fail because linked to a blog. What a bunch of morans. Explain why a blog say five years ago is ok, but now is bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KeenWh (talk • contribs) 04:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

So, Micosay which the example of appropriation gets a pass. Why am I am not surprised. Fuck wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by KeenWh (talk • contribs)

Eligibility Requirements

This page is noticeably missing Eligibility Requirements. I have no idea what they are, but I think it would be a good thing to add.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 23:56, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Who cares! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:8200:1DFD:983B:C8D3:24F5:24C3 (talk) 00:26, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


So again the micosay nonsense gets a pass on cultural appropriation, why am I not surprised

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Neutrality

I read a relevant article today, and was going to use it as a reference here, but there is no place for it and I am not inclined to create one on my own.

  • Klick, Andrea (August 11, 2020). "'They Know It's Wrong.' Some Call on Scouts to Change Use of Native American Culture". Kansas City Star. Retrieved August 11, 2020.

The Star article references the following, which provides an overview of the Native American view of cultural appropriation:

The article needs to have a section similar to the one in Order of the Arrow "Concerns of cultural appropriation and stereotypes" to have any balance in its POV. More that that, the entire article seems to use only sources from scouting, and the wording is far from neutral. For example, the KC Star article questions Bartle being "inducted" into a Native American tribe.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 01:25, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Placed the citations needed tag after seeing that several sections had no references. The one book cited, "Men of Schiff" by Winston Davis is self-published (Lulu.com) so is not a WP:RS.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

August 2022 reverts

Heading added ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

@Smuckola: I'm not sure why you keep reverting my edits. Please discuss any more changes before making them. Thanks. --evrik (talk) 21:53, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Then read. Any of it. But also, all of it. I'm moving your malformatted personal thread from the article talk onto your personal talk, because it's actually part of a warning. I'll leave this message instead of a template because they are multiple. No, you are not unilaterally ordering me to do anything, because you're the only one actually failing engagement and all my edits are correct. Your actions would indicate that you think you do what's right and it's right because you do it. WP:ICANTHEARYOU
Are you saying that you don't know what an edit summary is? I see that you apparently never write them, which is a super duper bad fact, but you don't know what they are? In my edit summaries, I have clearly explained my edits which were already self-evident and never needed explaining even to a new user, let alone one of five figure edits and a decade of experience. The banners are also self-explanatory with links to relevant policies.
You violated WP:3RR, in the course of forcing poor form, MOS:IMAGEQUALITY, MOS:IMGSIZE, WP:TAGBOMB, and then finally actually breaking some of the citations. A journal is not a book! You changed a periodical academic journal series into a book! Apparently with some misconfigured automated tool, you deleted "first=" and corrupted it all into "last=". You deleted the short description! So now you have two reasons that the next button you press is reverting that stuff: 1) on the pure principal of the blockable offense of WP:3RR alone, and also because of all that broken stuff. That's mandatory, immediately. Thanks.
Those things are all antithetical to anyone of any serious experience, especially anyone widely promoting articles. So I am absolutely baffled. Further, I would consider the subject matter to be part of WP:COI for you being in Boy Scouts. You are also building a WP:LINKFARM here as part of rehabilitating WP:FANCRUFT WP:NOTDIR over here, all of which needs to be deleted. Wikipedia is WP:NOT an organizational mission of anything but Wikipedia. It is not an indiscriminate list of facts or a regional directory or anybody's outsourced webhosting.
I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you all this but my goodness you belligerently forced me to. Hey thanks for finding the stray line feeds in the citations I added, while I was making the sole effort to try to save that article from deletion. I guess that was a happy accident from your misconfigured tool. — Smuckola(talk) 00:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
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