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ItalianVisits.com, is just link spam, a single unfinished page with 3 small uncaptioned photos and 4 links, the purpose of which is to draw people to "I.V. Tours".

The person who added ItalianVisits has systematically gone thru the 20 regions on Wikipedia to add that site to each, without any regard for improving Wikipedia, no attempt even at adding the official site for the various regions. This is therefore a link spam campaign, and should probably be considered vandalism. I've warned that user, and if need be (there have already been some reverts for other regional pages) will put them on the Vandalism in Progress page. If you have this page on your watchlist, please help in maintaining the quality of the links! Bill 12:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Rebuttal to Bill Thayer

Bill, I am the "someone" who added links to ItalianVisits.com on the various Italian Regional sites - and I don't think I was commiting "link spam" or engaged in vandalism when I did so. ItalianVisits.com is a serious endeavour being undertaken by my daughter, Jesse Andrews, who for the past 2 years has been living in Praia A Mare, in the northwest region of Calabria. My other daughter, Arianna, is attending university at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, and also contributes to the ItalianVisits website when she can.

If you look at the section on Calabria, you will see how much work and effort has been put into cataloguing towns and villages that are virtually unknown to English-speaking people, whether they are travelers or tourists, or people who have a curiousity about the area. You will note, I hope, the abundance of wonderful photographs that compliment the text, and present our viewers with images that otherwise would not be available. Incidentally, you should also note the link to Wikipedia resources whereever and whenever there is material on Wikidpedia about a region, town or other locale. We are as committed to Wikipedia as you are.

Jesse has created a vessel into which more information is being added every day. I just spent 15 days in Umbria, for instance, and added pages for Perugia, Assisi, Spello, Bevagna, Gubbio and the Regional Park at Colfiorito. Other contributors, like Katherine Lavallee, have added information about other towns in Tuscany. Such contributions are solicited eagerly so that we can fatten the content on the site.

ItalianVisits.com is hardly a come-on for selling tour packages, although we are trying to attract people to "unknown" parts of Italy, and in so doing, get some business to those out of the way places for local restauranteurs, hoteliers, and others in the travel business. If you are aware of what is going on in Italy now, you will understand that the economy is depressed, owing largely to various difficulties it has and is facing as it tries to integrate with the EU, and as it attempts to compete in a global economy. So, having information for travelers can not be the sine qua non of "link spam". If you look at all the external links listed in the Umbria section of Wikipedia, a number of them are active promoters of travel to the Region. Even in the various regional sections of Italy where you posted identical comments to the comments you made here there are links to sites that promote and facilitate travel. Should all of these be removed? And if so, by whom and under what (hopefully) well-defined policy?

You can coin or use phrases like "link spam", and "cyber vandalism", or other terms of denigration, but I think you, and others who "worry" about Wikipedia, should be careful not to sit on Wikipedia with a holier than thou attitude, deleting other people's contributions, unless a more thorough investigation is done into the content, and sometimes into the motives and objectives of their creators. Many people spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to do good without much reward beyond the satisfactions it provides. This effort to "do good" is manifest on your site Bill, at least, so far as I can see, and I commend you for it.

I'm a bit more than a little chagrined about what you have done Bill, and about how you have characterized ItalianVisits, but I hope we can discuss this if you think I am making an untenable argument in favour of allowing us to post links to the IV website, without fear of having them removed by the over-zealous.

Regards Vian Andrews Vancouver, BC July 28, 2005


Two new links (well - three)

I suppose that adding the same external link to all entries for Italy could have been misinterpreted as spam... I think two new links to the local tourism boards could help... For Trentino www.trentino.to

For South Tyrol/Alto adige two other links (one with the name of the region in Italian, the other in German) They point to the same site, but it is a way not to trigger other discussions www.suedtirol.comwww.alto-adige.com --Adriano 22:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Ianb
I've seen you pruned the links to tourism websites on this region.
I do not see any reasons why they should be erased - they are not off-topic, and are helpful to all those who wish to know a few more things on the area. And they are in English too.
Please state the reasons of your choice. Regards --Adriano 19:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige moved to Trentino-South Tyrol

The rename of Trentino-Alto Adige to Trentino-South Tyrol has ever been discussed before?

The usage of "South Tyrol" is extremely limited in Italy and mainly by the autonomist parties of the region.

Alto Adige is commonly used by other international references, like

http://dmoz.org/Regional/Europe/Italy/Regions/Trentino-Alto_Adige/

Pietro 13:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The article used to be at Trentino-South Tyrol. Isn't the English language name "South Tyrol"? -- User:Docu
The meaning of "Alto Adige" is "to the north of the Adige river", that is the Italian view of the area; "South Tyrol" is the German view. As an Italian Region, Alto Adige should be used. Pietro 13:24, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
The name "Trentino-South Tyrol" doesn't exist. The correct denomination is "Trentino-Alto Adige", like italian administration said. The "Provincia autonoma di Bolzano" can be denominated "Alto Adige" or "Süd-Tirol" --Ilario 08:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Although "Trentino-South Tyrol" does not exist as a name in the Italian or German language, it obviously does exist in English (at least multiple sources refer to the region as T-South Tyrol). Similarily, although the term "Austria" does not exist in German (just "Österreich" does), it is the proper lemma of the article. In my point of view the name most commonly used in English should be used as lemma. Gugganij 13:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Will South Tyrol keep it's name? Will the articles Austria, Vienna and Tyrol be renamed to "Österreich", "Wien" and "Tirol" (with "i")? ;-) --Roland2 00:51, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course the version Trentino-South Tyrol exist, check the official website of the government of that region. Take a look...[1] Gryffindor 09:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Contra! - The article shouldn't be renamed. The common English name is South Tyrol and even when it is an Italian region, it has been a part of Austria for so long. The citizens there still speak German and they call their region "Südtirol" (what means South Tyrol in German) themselfes. If this article is renamed I'll start to rename Austria to "Österreich", Styria to "Steiermark"... it's an endless list... ;) --194.166.233.163 18:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I suppose that nobody who visits South Tyrol will search the Internet via Alto Adige. Because South Tyrol keeps it's common English name in Wikipedia, also the Double province Trentino-South Tyrol should do.
Additional to the above mentioned arguments, a short look to the official Civic Network's homepage (www.provincia.bz.it) is useful: official english homepage of the province, called South Tyrol. And also the english region name is Region Trentino - South Tyrol. --Geof 22:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Requested move ("Trentino-South Tyrol" => "Trentino-Alto Adige")

The name "Trentino-South Tyrol" doesn't exists in italian administration. The name correct is "Trentino-Alto Adige". Süd-Tyrol is the old denomination of region before the 1919. Only the "Provincia autonoma di Bolzano" can be denominated "Süd-Tirol" because it is bilingual. --Ilario 09:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know not just the northern part but the region as a whole is bilingual. At least that seems to be clear to me when reading articles 99 to 102 of the constitutional law determining the special status of the region Trentino-South Tyrol [2] (pdf!, in Italian and German). The President's decree, confirming the unified text of the constitutional law, refers to "Trentino-Alto Adige" and "Trentino-Südtirol" respectively. The official homepage of the region is entirely bilingual [3], using both T-AA and T-St. Thus, it seems to me that both versions (T-St and T-AA) are official. Anyway, in my point of view just the common usage in English seems to be relevant, when determining the lemma. Since the term "Trentino-Alto Adige" gives more google hits than "Trentino-South Tyrol" I tend to support the move. Gugganij 12:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes and I get twice as many more hits on Goggle if I type Steiermark than Styria, nevertheless we are still using the English name because this is an English-language version. Gryffindor 09:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I totally agree, that the name most frequently used in ENGLISH should be the lemma. I restricted my google search to websites in English, and still, "Trentino-Alto Adige" beat "Trentino-South Tyrol". This result might be an indication that "Alto Adige" is currently more frequently used in English than "South Tyrol". Due to a possible bias google hits in itself are certainly just a rough guide, and exactely for that reason, I just gave a conditional support for the move. Gugganij 22:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, that still does not make sense though. Did you click on the external websites provided by me and other users? The regional government calls it in English South Tyrol, the regional tourism board calls it South Tyrol, etc. So what exactly is going on here? The name in English is Trentino-South Tyrol, this is not "Googlepedia" or whatever.. Wikipedia rules state, that if there is an English translation, then use that one. "Alto Adige" is Italian, not English. Gryffindor 23:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
1. At least the German wikipedia's rule for naming places is, that the German name should be the lemma, besides in those cases where the German name itself is not widely used in German any more. E.g. the lemma for the Croatian capital is "Zagreb" (although its german name is "Agram", which was most commonly used till the mid of the 70s, and is still used to some extent within Austria and Germany but much less frequently than "Zagreb"). Effectively, "Zagreb" became a synonym to "Agram" in GERMAN. If the English wikipedia has a different rule (i.e. "use the English name as the lemma, regardless if it is most commonly used or not in the English language") I am happy to accept that. 2. I totally agree that Wikipedia is not "Googlepedia", but still, Google can be used as a reference. Google results must be interpreted properly (like any other source) and certainly should be accompanied by other sources as well. That was the reason, why I asked native speakers for their assessment (I am for myself Austrian). If we come to the conclusion that "Trentino-South Tyrol" (despite its much lower score in Google) is more widely used than "Trentino-Alto Adige" in the English language, I'm more than willing to change my "conditional support" to "oppose". Gugganij 13:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your frankness. So, let's go to South Tyrol ;-) yours, Geof 22:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Conditional Support - At least according to google (restricted to english language websites) "T-AA" gives more hits thant "T-St". Thus, that might indicate that "T-AA" is more commonly used in English. What do English native speakers think? Gugganij 12:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC) Changed vote: Oppose - "Trentino-South Tyrol" seems to be more prevelant than "Trentino-Alto Adige" (according to some English native speakers I asked). Gugganij 11:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica says North Tirol and East Tirol. This is a mixture as well. --Roland2 02:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
...but not South Tirol. --147.162.44.28 12:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose: When you can choose between the Italian, German or English name, I would prefer the English one. Otherwise you'd have to rename Tyrol to "Tirol" and East Tyrol to "Osttirol" and maybe find out how to pronounce it ;-) --Roland2 02:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we start translating Aosta Valley into Vallée d'Aoste/Valle d'Aosta and Rhineland-Palatinate as Rheinland-Pfalz and Carinthia into Kärnten while we're at it?-) Gryffindor
Sorry not really. The region is called South Tyrol in English. The Adige/Etsch is a river. Gryffindor
  • Oppose. the english wikipedia usually uses english terms for article names. like Austria is listed as Austria and not Österreich which is the native name. translating alto adige into english doesn't make much sense (would be something like high mountain range). the commonly used english term for alto adige hasn't been anything else than south tyrol. region names do not need to have the same meaning in every language. --Pythagoras1 12:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • oppose The official name is South Tyrol. --Hubi (Talk) 16:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but the the official name is Trentino-Alto Adige and Trentino-Südtirol. You can use the English as you like, but not saying that South Tyrol is the official name please ! You say, I suppose, Florence and it's good, but the official name still is Firenze. Gac 17:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
      Gac, you are contradicting yourself. You support to name it to "Alto Adige" and at the same time you say and, both names are official? How can you say both things at the same time...?? Fantasy 容 19:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose Sud Tirolo in Italian is as wrong as Etschland in German. But, this is en.wiki, and if you guys have never heard of Upper Adige but only of South Tyrol than stick to that. In the end Italians call the Flemish-Belgian city of Ghent Gand, like the French do, and it.wikipedia sticks to that. --Cruccone 17:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose South-Tyrol is the english name of the country - "Alto Adige" is a fascism inventation. --DieterFink 19:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
the Prontuario was written in 1916, fascism started in 1922. If it really was a fascist invention, we would have changed the name after WWII. The town of Littoria was renamed Latina. It is a common feature of history that you annex some territory and change place names to your language. New York was called New Amsterdam before the English conquered it, but no one would say they were fascists. And Italy now recognises both the Italian and the German name. --Cruccone 21:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose If "South Tyrol" is changed to "Alto Adige", we have to change also "Florence" to "Firenze", Rome to Roma, .... Ok, the italians would probably support that, but I think the english Wikipedians will not be happy with it. Jimbo was visitin South Tyrol not Alto Adige, I am quite sure of that... Fantasy 容 18:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support: This is a tough one and there won't be a solution that appeals to everyone. I prefer "Trentino-Alto Adige", though, for the following reasons:
    1. The region is an administrative part of Italy, and the lingua franca of Italy is Italian; all official texts in Italy will call the region "Trentino-Alto Adige"
    2. Italian is also the mother tongue of 66% of the region's population
    3. As a German native speaker, anglicized German place names sound awful to me
    On a side-note, keep the name South Tyrol for the article about autonomous region of Bozen, because there, the majority is German speaking.
    Second sidenote: Does the regional government give an official English translation of the name? - Mkill 19:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • You got it! That was exactly the point, why Italy agreed to give Trentino AND South Tyrol autonomy, because they knew, that The Germans will be in a minority (66% italians, as you say). The Italians just tricked the Austrian negotiator. So, you say, because the italians tricked the Austrians, they should now have the victory...? Fantasy 容 19:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't like to see english Wikipedia used for the nationalistic instances of italian- or german-speaking people. If there's an english name that's fine, if not an "italian name-german name" with redirects from "italian name" and "german name" is fine too. In the end use names that english-speaking people would search for, not names that italians or germans want to impose. --Snowdog 00:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • As an Italo-Australian whose primary language is English, I have to agree with Snowdog's logic. I reckon most anglophiles would say Alto what? But they would have a pretty good idea of what is meant by South Tyrol, what part of Italy it is referring to, its history, linguistic quirks, etc. I support neither proposition strongly, but I am saying that there is a snowball's chance in hell that the name Trentino-Alto Adige would ever pop into the head of an anglophile - they have enough trouble spelling my surname! Salutamu. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Ok to all opposed, we don't need to translate all geographic names in the original language but to consider this important support Britannica (but also Encarta etc. etc.). Why Britannica don't translate even if Britannica is an english encyclopedia? It could be because the editors aren't experienced in translation? We can see that there is a complex reason between "altoatesini" and "südtirolern". The translation could be a choice for "only one" point of view. I suggest you to take the choice of Britannica that don't translate and leave this problem intact and use the "italian administrative name". The name could be taken during the Fascism, but at the moment in Italy the Fascism is dead. And Jimbo was visiting the South Tyrol in the administrative italian region "Trentino-Alto Adige". --Ilario 21:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Britannica is not Wikipedia and presumably has its own conventions for naming places. Their usage should not determine Wikipedia usage. I note that Britannica gives Tirol as the primary spelling of what we call Tyrol. This demonstrates that Britannica's usage cannot be treated as a method of deciding on disputed issues. Valiantis 13:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Ilario, Trentino-Südtirol is also an official name. It cannot be denied. --Cruccone 21:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm italian and I would strongly oppose to change it:Londra to London although I know that the latter is the correct name. For the very same reason I trust native english speakers on what is the name of Trentino-Alto Adige in their language. --it:Utente:Berto
  • Oppose - as you can see on the official site of the region [4], the region refers to itself as "South Tyrol" in the english imprint (bottom of the page) and folders. --stefan (?!) 18:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The English version Autonomous Region Trentino - South Tyrol of the official site seems fine to me. -- User:Docu

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stefán Ingi 00:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Discussion about South Tyrol

Wikipedia uses the english name for naming italian provinces and not the italian ones, such as Tuscany, Sicily, Lombardy, etc... otherwise you would have to rename those into Toscana, Sicilia, etc.. I have checked the website of the Government of South Tyrol, they use the name "Trentino-South Tyrol". [5], [6]. And if you are going to go with "official" name, Art. 116 of the Constitution of the Republic of Italy states that the official name of the province is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" You can check the website of the Constitutional Court of Italy/La Corte costituzionale della Republica Italiana link in English and for Italian-speaking users Costituzione della Repubblica Art. 116.

In order to avoid a muddle up of German and Italian, best to keep it in English. cheers... Gryffindor 19:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, there is the article Trentino-Upper_Adige with correct denomination translated in English, but this is a redirect. The name Südtirol is the name of province. The region (composed by the province of Trento + the province of Bozen/Bolzano) has the name "Trentino-Alto Adige" (or Trentino Upper-Adige). --Ilario 19:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you: "best to keep it in English", not German: see also
Columbia Encyclopedia
Encarta
...
Pietro 21:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Well I have provided the proof. The official name in English is "Trentino-South Tyrol". The word "Upper Adige" is a geographic name for the upper region of the Adige river, similar to "Upper Volta". The province of Alto-Adige/Südtirol is however South Tyrol in English. The Italian Constitution is fair enough even to name both German and Italian names "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". The name Trentino-Alto Adige is the Italian name, however this is the English-language Wikipedia. It explains even in the article itself. You can also look up the entry South Tyrol. Gryffindor 23:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been asked to share some input...so here it is: see here (I admit there are no clear guidelines for geographic terms, but South Tyrol is in use in the English-speaking world). Trentino Alto Adige is the Italian name for it, but I see don't much use in moving it to that name; a redirect from would probably do it. Lectonar 09:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, well then this should be pretty clear. Also these Italian Tourist websites use the word South Tyrol in English. Gryffindor


I would say, that South Tyrol should be used because it's the traditional name of this Region. In southern Tyrol the people are speaking up to 70 % German und South Tyrol is thet Region where Tyrol has been foundet in the village of Tyrol in the near of Meran and Meran is in South Tirol. I would say the Artikle should have the name Trentino-South Tyrol because it's the historical name. South Tyrol has been translatet from the italian goverment (Mursolini) in the years after the first worldwar to Alto-Adige, because they didn't had no italian name. They made them with the most names of villages and towns in southern Tyrol because in the italian languige had existed only 25 of the aprox 8.000 names oft villages, towns, rivers and mountains in South Tyrol. I would say, that we have to take cara to the german and rheto-romanic people in this part of Italy. --Highdelbeere 15:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I would say that care is being shown to the multi-ethnic inhabitants of this region through our use of double-naming for towns- Bozen-Bolzano, Meran-Merano etc. South Tyrol should not be used because it is the historic name, but because it is the name used in English. Olessi 17:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The title of an article in the English version of Wikipedia should be the name used in the English world: do you think that the Britannica could be used as a reference? Pietro 19:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I am starting to become very irritated with these "Support" votes, is anyone reading any of the external websites that say that Alto-Adige/Südtirol is in english "South Tyrol"? Pushing this issue to me is not objective and a POV and borders on nationalistic chauvinism. There seems to be a run to rename everything about Südtirol into Italian now, see Talk:Eisack-Isarco. I would like to know why no one is running to rename Tuscany or Aosta Valley? Wikipedia has to remain neutral. Both German and Italian are official languages. This is not the place for political bickering, let's keep this as neutral as possible. in English. Gryffindor 23:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
It should be stated as Trentino-Alto Adige. South Tyrol is simply the English translation of the German pespective. It was someone who changed everything to South Tyrol originally with no consensus. Who was this??

TEST

Ok. I see that there are a lot of misunderstanding. This test, that anyone can be made, can clarify the problem and forget (please) all nationalisms and bring back the discussion in a right point of view. I see that there is a mistakes about the differences between "administrative name" and "historical" or "usual name".

  • Do you think that Baden-Württemberg must have like main name: Swabia because Baden-Württemberg is german name but Swabia is an english name? YES NOT
  • Do you think that Burkina Faso must have like main name: Upper Volta because this last name has a translation in english? YES NOT
  • Do you think that "administrative italian region" Molise must have like main name: Samnium because Molise is italian name but Samnium is english name and the inhabitants of Molise call themselves "Sanniti" and speaks Neapolitan language? YES NOT
  • Do you think that "administrative italian region" Basilicata must have like main name: Lucania because all italians call its inhabitants "Lucani"? YES NOT
  • Do you think that "administrative name" that is present in italian Constitution (1947 after the Fascismus) could not be different from "historical" or "usual" name? YES NOT
  • Do you think that this is not an english encyclopedia: [7]? YES NOT
  • Do you think that this is not an english encyclopedia: [8] (note that here on can read "administrative region")? YES NOT
  • Do you think that this redirect is incorrect http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576101/South%20Tyrol.html? YES NOT
  • Do you think that this is not an english encyclopedia: [9]? YES NOT
  • Do you think that all the previous encyclopedias have bad and incompetent editors? YES NOT

If your test has produced the result

  • in the range 10-7: "Ok, you are tenacious opponent and you are consistent with your ideas"
  • in the range 6-4: "Ok, you are opponent but you should be more consistent with your ideas"
  • in the range 3-0: "What are doing here?"

OK. Last chanche:

  • Do you think that this search in Google [10] that has produced 916,000 English pages compared with this other [11] with 59,900 results is only a proof that Google works only with "italian nationalists" and (perhaps) also Google's engineers are "italian fuc???? Fascists"? YES NOT

In Wikipedia a read a lot of "fuzzy" point of view... I have read in french wikipedia that "Mont Blanc" is completely french, I read here that the "italian consitution" made also a mistake because the name "Trentino-Alto Adige" is wrong and a crazy creation, but in any case I'm accused also to be "nationalist". Here I'm only asking the reason of differences between WIKIPEDIA and the other encyclopedias.

Have a nice test :) --Ilario 15:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The main reason why I am adamantly against changing this article's name to Trentino-Alto Adige is because my various attempts at finally getting East Timor moved to Timor-Leste have been in vain, despite the facts that
  • Timor-Leste is also used in English - not the case for Alto Adige; and that
  • all inhabitants of Timor-Leste call their country Timor-Leste or Timor Lorosa'e, but definitely not East Timor; and that
  • the government of Timor-Leste has definitely requested, in the same way the goverment of Côte d'Ivoire did, to be referred to as Timor-Leste in all languages.
All these arguments were defied by the wikipedia policy of "use English name if available". So if this is the highest level of policy to go by, this article's name has to be Trentino-South Tyrol, and nothing else. Feel free to disprove my point, but if you do, please also attempt to contribute to this discussion about a very similar problem... ナイトスタリオン ✉ 16:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The difference is that other encyclopedias are made by specialists who understand the difference between "administrative name" and "common name". This is the idea that an anonymous user can take. --Ilario 17:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
This doesn't mean Wikipedia should be factually incorrect, though... Either way, we're only discussing this single page move here. Since we have to use the English name, it's South Tyrol. If we were to use the "undisputed official name" or "self-identifying name", it'd have to be Trentino-Alto Adige/Trentino-Südtirol, BTW, which looks horrible, so the language-neutral Trentino-South Tyrol is actually a good compromise. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 19:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand, are you saying that Latium, Lombardy, Piedmont, Apulia, Tuscany, Sardinia, Sicily and Aosta Valley should be renamed as well using the italian name instead of the english one? Or that Trentino-South Tyrol is not english (or not widespread in english)? --Snowdog 16:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
@Ilario: I do not know if know that South Tyrol is es official translation of both the administrativ an geografic official name of the nordermost province in Italy to with in Italian is refered as Alto Adige, a name never used bevor 1928. The itlain name of this region shut be or Tirol meridionale o Sudtirolo--MartinS 08:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

What's in a name?

Personally, I think this discussion is now mainly driven by nationalistic spirits on a bilingual area.
Not being an English mother-tongue, in order to add my contribution, I had a look on the Collins Coincise Dictionary - 21 Century Edition. It states that Trentino-Alto Adige is a region in Italy and that South Tyrol (or Tirol) "in 1919 became the Bolzano and Trento Provinces of the Trentino-Alto Adige Autonomous Region"
This could support the Alto-Adige theory, but, actually, as long as there is a link from one lemma to the other, the result is the same. Those who look for Trentino-Alto Adige and those who search Trentino-South Tyrol will end up on the same page.
So I borrow Shakespeare's words: what's in a name? Aren't we just "discussing on the angel's gender"(Italian expression meaning "talking on useless things")? :-) --Adriano 20:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

My granfather died for the right to use german in South Tyrol (I don't blame the italians voting here, it seems they don't know the South Tyrolean history, so they can't be blamed for what their fathers did to us).
So is it just a "angel's gender" or is it something to die for...? Fantasy 容 22:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
You are a bit of an angry fellow aren't you? I bet a lot of German's know their history in the last century, so they should be blamed for what their fathers have done to the Earth? Hmm. 71.106.187.188 07:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've got to know how your grandfather died for German in Trentino-Alto Adige. How did you end up being born? Or was he blown up while trying to plant a bomb during the terrosism era? Don't belittle others by claiming only you seem to know the history. 192.45.72.27 22:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Your grandfather, admit it or not, was a German colonizer in what was for centuries Roman/Italian land. Enough of this claim by the Austrian-Hungarian imperialists over

former colonies. You had almost all of Italy at one time, not any more, and never again.

Dear Fantasy
First of all PEACE! The aim of my contribution was to calm down this discussion. This is Wikipedia, and not the terrain for political fights.
I repeat: call it in a way or another, the substance does not change. The sentence "What's in a name?" is taken from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. It goes on like this "That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet."
And YES, I hope this discussion on how to call an entry in Wikipedia will remain on an "angel's gender"-type and not become something to die for...
My humble opinion is: what about burying the hatchet, leaving everything as it is and concentrating instead on the enrichment of Wikipedia with new entries rather than with endless discussions?
Those contributors who have English as their mother-tongue will be able to take the best decision on this matter. They will be less influenced by either Italian or German languages and they will certainly rely on purely linguistic matters... And, if you think about it, provided that there is a link from the excluded lemma, nothing really changes... --Adriano 00:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The problem is not in the translation of the name in italian or in german. The italian constitution says: Art.116 "Il Friuli Venezia Giulia, la Sardegna, la Sicilia, il Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol e la Valle d'Aosta/Vallee d'Aoste dispongono di forme e condizioni particolari di autonomia, secondo i rispettivi statuti speciali adottati con legge costituzionale." It accept the two names. But I don't understand because a lot of english encyclopedias uses the translation for other italian regions (like Latium) and not for this region.
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol (like says italian constitution) or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol could be an acceptable denomination not so different from other encyclopedias and more accurate. --Ilario 09:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Adriano,
Thanks for Shakespeare's words. And thanks for the peace.
I knew from the title that you were referring to Shakespeare, my favorite play, I know it by heart (nearly ;-)
...but then when I saw you referring to this problem as "angel's gender" discussion, I always have the problem to aks myself if my granfather died for the right thing. I think he has gone too far, but on the other side I am not sure if I would have had the possibility to go to a german scool if he would not have done what he has done, If the italians would have succeeded with getting rid of us germans.
I love the italians, I love the way they live, I have many italian friends, real friends, especially also from the italian Wikipedia. My granfather never did anything against any italian person. He just fighted for the right to have the same rights as the italians have. And I think we are currently in a situation where german and italian speaking people in South Tyrol can really live together without problems. But it is a delicate equilibrium. And therefore the feelings sometimes get strong when someone touches this equilibrium.
I think, talking about equilibrium, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol would be something that gives the same right to both languages, I would support that. Thanks for this good proposal, Ilario!
Just to make it clear: I love the italians and I am sure that we can all go along well if we respect each other and work together, thanks to everyone :-) Fantasy 容 19:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, I hereby propose then two have a vote between the options Trentino-South Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige, and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. Agreed? ナイトスタリオン ✉ 09:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Take care with starting a new vote. Starting it too fast and not prepared well enough can be counterproductive. Maybe let some time pass, let people calm down, and then we start a well prepared vote. What do you say? ;-) Fantasy 容 16:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
PS: This page is far too unstructured, I think a general restart of the discussion and archiving a big part of this page (summaries can stay) is necessary...
Dear Fantasy,
Thanks for the reply.
Just a little comment on your sentence "if the italians would have succeeded with getting rid of us germans". Having had relatives fighting on the Italian side during WW1 I can assure you that many soldiers were against that war and any italianization process. The proof of this: something like the Christmas Truce happened on this front as well!!
Keeping the discussion on a purely academic level helps calming things down... --Adriano 09:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
During a meeting of the italian wikipedian in Brixen we found a compromice:
  1. Etsch - Adige shut be Adige with redirect from Etsch
  2. English translations like South Tyrol shut be used
  3. for Cities an villages in South Tyrol the german name shut be used if there are more etnic germans then italians (the same for ladin villages)
  4. Eisack - Isarco shut be Eisack with redirect from Isarco for it flows only true mainly german areas of South Tyrol--MartinS 08:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Great, many problems really would be solved easier if we could sit down together, I think this is a good sign that italian and german Wikipedian sat down together to find a solution and found one that seems (to me at least) ok.
I am really sorry that I was not able to attend that meeting, but I see that you "worked" well, nice to see this result.
Thanks from the heart every italian and german speaking Wikipedian who helped find a solution :-) Fantasy 容 17:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Please have a look at Talk:Bozen-Bolzano#A_proposal_from_a_meeting_between_german_and_italian_speaking_Wikipedians and tell me if I understood the proposal right, thanks :-) Fantasy 容 17:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The fact that Italian and German wikipedians wish to work together for a solution (to what exactly I am not sure) cerainly brings a tear to my eye - but what has that got to do with the English language wikipedia? People are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist - Trentino-South Tyrol is fine for the moment as the main title for the english language article. As I have said elsewhere, if we note the english speaking press referring to this region as Trentino-Alto Adige (or whatever else), then, and only then, would I think that a change is required. For the moment, I believe that most English speakers are willing to leave it as is (and I can assure everyone that I do not have any political axe to grind or any chip to extract from my shoulder, and apologies in advance for using metaphors in such a pathetic manner!). --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

why not Trentino-South Tyrol (Trentino-Alto Adige)?

If english mother language people think that Trentino-South Tyrol is the best choice, I think they perfeclty know what they're doing: they know the language they speak, I guess! All the issues about the complex history of that part of the world can be explained in the article itself. What really matters, in my point fo view, is not if Google (or others) get more results with Trentino-Alto Adige than with Trentino-South Tyrol, but how many english speaking people digit the first or the last.
To reach everbody, however, why not calling it Trentino-South Tyrol (Trentino-Alto Adige)? In it.wiki such solutions are not so uncommon. Reaching nearly everybody should be everybody's main aim ever, on every wikipedias. We're not there to quarrel about history and personal memories, that are pretty harsh to manage above all when referred to that part of our history (Fascism, indipendence and it's freedom martyrs, WWII, and so on).

Tinette 09:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Just to add something to the discussion above: I do not opt for the use of South-Tyrol out of any nationalistic sentiment (then I would probably use Süd Tirol), but because this spelling is very widespread in the English speaking world (an even the Italian ministry for tourism uses it). We may keep Alto-Adige as a redirect, so everyone is happy, because you still end up on the correct page. If everything else fails, someone could file an Rfc about this. But if you want to have a look how a problem like this can get out of hand, see the discussion about the naming of Gdansk Lectonar 10:48, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

That way everything should be correct

Ok: the real name of the "object" is Trentino-Alto Adige, since it's Italian and a part of the Italian Nation. Historical sorrows are not a part of THIS topic, so please forget them for a while.
After a long discussion on the it.wiki ML we have arrived at the conclusion that the correct name should be "Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol", or "Trentino-Alto Adige (Trentino-South Tyrol), because there's a pretty well known english translation of Alto Adige: South Tyrol, and we are talking about en.wiki.
That way the name is correct from an enciclopedian point of view (all the others refer to it this way). It's correct from an historical/geografical point of view, too, because the "object" is Italian anyway. It's "ergonomic" for the user 'cause it still keeps the english translation so everybody can find it quickily.
Plus the habit of translating every name in other languages was more common in the past, but nowadays we all tend to call something in it's original name, if possible. This can sound odd, but it's easier (and respectful) on a global point of view: one name instead of many.
An example: Bombay turned to Mumbai recently, 'cause this is the sound of the capital's name in the Indian main languages. And now that's the name on every new map. The same is happening to other Indian cities.

Tinette 11:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I cannot agree with one point in your argumentation: It's correct from an historical/geografical point of view, too, because the "object" is Italian anyway. That is factually wrong. The "object" in question is Italian and Austrian, and the official languages are Italian and German, so the article name should contain both (following the "use official name" policy) or neither (following the "use English name" policy). ナイトスタリオン ✉ 16:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh, please. This talk is beginning to sound ridicolous. Nightstallion, according to what you said we should name this article "Trentino-Alto Adige/Trentino SüdTirol (Trentino South Tyrol)"? I don't think so.
This Region can be called in two ways:
  • Trentino-Alto Adige: most correct in a legal point of view and more used on the web (Google docet), but not translatable.
  • Trentino-Süd Tyrol: german version of the name. Often used by the English people to indicate the region, but not always. More: it is translated in "South Tyrol", that's more english.
Ok, then. I think that "Trentino-Alto Adige (Trentino South Tyrol)" is the better-in-the-middle: it includes "Trentino-Alto Adige" (more "enciclopedical"), and "Trentino-Süd Tyrol" (in the translated version "Trentino-South Tyrol"; more commonly used).
Ah, naturellement I apologize for my awful english :D
--Gatto Nero 16:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
IMHO the article should contain the two definitions like Bozen-Bressanone. In this case Trentino-Alto Adige/Süd Tirol translating all it is possible. --Ilario 17:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
You've got my full support for Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, as well. Maybe we should call a new vote between the three options Trentino-South Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige, and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol? ナイトスタリオン ✉ 18:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
It would be good, but I almost suspect that Gryffindor uses multiple accounts to push his agenda. He has an ultra-Austrian mindset. He avoids all direct conversations, just like a good politician. :)

This looks like a good compromise, support -- 62.178.220.23 18:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Oppose Not to spoil the party, this compromise might work in parliament and in politics, but not here. Otherwise we would need to have Vallée d'Aoste/Valle d'Aosta, and also Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera/Svizra, Kärnten/Koroška, maybe Friuli-Venezia Giulia/Friaul-Julisch Venetien, when English names exist. This is an english Wikipedia, best to use the English names, and gives this national naming-debate a rest. Gryffindor 22:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm really confused by your constant pushing for this Gryffindor. You are using double talk to continually push your agenda. You even go against Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol, and it is not surprising..
Support This is the best idea I've seen, and it does spoil someone's attempt at revisionism (using the South Tyrol). Using Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol as well as Bolzano/Bozen is perfect.
Hello User:192.45.72.27, please use the tildes ~ when leaving a message. I also read your previous comments left in the talk history about "hidden agendas" and "colonizers", please tone down your voice a little bit, no need to use such language. The only "agenda" that you could possibly accuse me off is to use English in the English Wikipedia whenever possible. If you have a problem with that, well then... Gryffindor 13:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
First of all, its not your place to ask others to tone their voices down. Colonizer is not a dirty word and I have the right to express my opinion that you appear to have some agenda. Do not try to dodge the core discussion by saying you're sole purpose is to defend English usage in Wiki, we are all not that naive. I've seen the history where you have repeatedly gone through and unilaterally changed everything to South Tyrol and are adament about not using any other name except the one you insist on. I am an English speaker with my roots (mostly Italian, partially Austrian) in the region (where are your roots, Vienna?). The majority in the English World (I live in USA, have lived in UK) know little or nothing of what this region is called, so by you going and insisting on South Tyrol you are creating a bias to the Germanic viewpoint. It just so happens that Sud-Tirol easily translates into English by even non-German speakers who visit, but this is not an excuse to how to name the region. I believe that the idea of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol was a very good one. Perfect, actually, and it was entertaining to read your reasons (i.e., grabbing at straws) to why its not acceptible. Sorry if its too tough a tone for you, but saying we are respecting Engish by making it South Tyrol is hogwash. It looks like to me you are trying to push a defacto name of South Tyrol in the International language of English. If you don't like that someone sees something fishy in what you are doing.. that is really your tough luck. I for one will support the fair, in the middle, compromise of Alto-Adige/Sud-Tirol. I'm very interested to see how far you will go to have only one International name, you're "South Tyrol".
Hello User:192.45.72.27, again please use the ~ tildes when signing, that is standard in Wikipedia. I'm afraid you are taking this whole thing a little too personal, nobody is trying to work here against anyone, so please just relax. I can understand your viewpoint, however this is the English Wikipedia, not Esperanto or what have you. May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the rules first if you haven't done so yet: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Based on consensus and research that has been done, the common English name for Alto Adige/Südtirol = South Tyrol. You can check these official websites Region Trentino - South Tyrol, Official website of South Tyrol for further references. regards Gryffindor 12:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Its awesome that you study politics Gryffindor, it fits you're personality perfectly. Feel sorry for you. You are making a unilateral decision to make things South Tyrol because you have an Austrian agenda. Maybe one of us will just change it to Alto Adige/Sudtirol, as you had made your chance unilaterally in the past. You are the one taking it personal, because it shows on here that you are completely -obsessed- with keeping it your way, South Tyrol. A doctor may be in need! :)

Leaving the decision to English mother-tongues only?

IMHO However you call it, as long as there is a link from the other(s) option(s), everybody should be happy. But, as Tinette says, only contributors with English as mother-tongue should take a decision on the primary name.
Why? Because, unlike most -if not all!- of those participating in this discussion, (me included):

1- "they know the language they speak, I guess!" (Quoted from Tinette)
2- They are less likely to be influenced by historical/cultural/you-name-it aspects linked to the local linguistic etc. conflicts in this bilingual area.
3- They are less influenced by other languages.

What do you all think about this point? Should we stop posts, leaving room to English mother-tongues only for discussing on this point, on purely linguistic basis? --Adriano 22:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Native speakers may apply forthwith

  • I am an Italo(siculo)-Australian whose native tongue is English. It's clear to me that South Tyrol is likely to mean more to a native speaker than Alto Adige (I didn't really know much about the latter term until this whole discussion flared up, but I have always known the name South Tyrol). I also note that the table carries the full official name in both Italian and German. So as long as we have all the potential redirects working correctly, I don't really see a need to do much more here. Having said all that, Tinette makes a valid point that at least at the national level, there is a trend in English to use the name that is official and current in the country concerned. So political history and histrionics aside, there remains a valid linguistic argument for going with the official name, but I believe the time to make the change, should it ever come, will be when we see evidence of use of the term in the broader English speaking media. Until evidence of such usage is clear, we should go with what we know, and that is South Tyrol. Salutamu. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I get the impression that a clear consensus for any form of change did not eventuate. Not only that, I am still waiting to hear from others who: 1. do not come to this discussion with some political baggage; 2. who are native speakers of English. That being the case, I am wondering whether the discussion is now at an end and whether the warning box should now be removed(?) --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
pippudoz wonders why English native speakers without political baggage don't intervene in this discussion. Maybe because this discussion is mainly based on politics...
I agree on the point that, unless a few English native speakers intervene, this discussion on changing the name of this lemma should come to an end... --Adriano 15:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


"Object" and ergonomy of use

Trentino Alto-Aldige is Italian because it has to follow Italian laws, go for voting in Italian election, has a region party that has seats in Italian parliament, pay taxes to Italy, is in Italy. Surely the German identity has great importance: we all know and, belive me, it wolud be really hard to forget. That's why Italy has fixed special laws to protect that identity and apply that laws every day. That's way we pay respect to this historical heritage every time we have to.
May I remind to you all (last but not least) that Trentino is a very well-off country because its people are more respectful and polite then other, have a good regional management (better than others) and because Italy pay for MANY different things, in taxes discounts, to Special Status Regions: Valle d'Aosta, Trentino Alto-Adige, Friuli, Sicilia, Sardegna.
Trentino use this money far better then others, but it still is italian money that Italy give these regions to help them grow up better.
Morover, most regions near the italian borders speak two languages: in Valle d'Aosta both Italian and French (i.e.) are spoken and both are studied in school (compulsory).
English speaking people know their language and have do decide how is better naming it from a communicating point of view. Italian people know their history and geography. These are different things, let split them once for all.
I think that the article should be named Trentino Alto-Adige/South Tyrol SIMPLY AND ONLY because Trentino Alto-Adige is the most used name in main english enciclopedias. I guess this the whole it.wiki point of view too: if Trentino was know and referencend at as "JohnDoe", we were proposing "JohnDoe" and nothing else. South Tyrol should be mantained because it's the better English Translation of the term and this is of top importance for users easy of use.
While "Bolzano-Bozen" is "one" name, as "Dublin-Baile Atha Cliath". Both are written on national and international maps e both have to be manteined the way they are.
Wikipedia is growing in importance and has, on the odd occasion, surpassed Britannica 'cause the wikipedians around the world had chosen to be NPOV. So, stick to the point and write down only strictly factual information which is likely to be of help to all users. I think that is more important than all the rest and that we all must continue following this route. English, Italian, German, or whatever.

Tinette 13:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

A message to foreigners

To us native English speakers the damned place is called South-Tyrol! So for God's sake stick to Trentino-South Tyrol! It is of no relevance to us Anglo-Saxons what natives of any region in the world happen to call their home - that may sound a little fascist, but that's how name giving works I'm afraid. I'm not going to start calling Venice Venezia just because Italians feel offended by the name Venice! Sorry to have to say this to Italian contributors - but the fact that South Tyrol now belongs to Italy is an injustice brought about in part by us Anglo-Saxon Allies after the First World War and I think we should retain the right to call the place South Tyrol! This encylopedia is written for the English-speaking world - interestingly a lot of non-native English speakers wish to participate in the widespread sucess of the English language by contributing to this encyclopedia - fine, but don't start telling us how to speak English!

Finally a clear comment, thank you anonymous contributor! --Adriano 17:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Seems that on this subject there is a real war (just click on "History" for the offensive comments deleted by Nightstallion). Will it ever be possible to carry out a NPOV discussion on this matter, without slinging mud at each other? --Adriano 12:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, as an Austrian, I can say that most people in Austria consider this matter to be closed and South Tyrol as belonging to Italy. A sizeable minority in Tyrol might think otherwise (even the Landeshauptmann recently said something about the Unrechtsgrenze (border of injustice) to the south, but I'm not sure in what context it was or how seriously it should be taken), but I think it's even less of an issue now that we're all part of the EU. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 12:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello there - I'm the author of the first contribution to this section and I just wanted to say to whoever called me a "fucking German": by the look of your diction it strikes me that your mother tongue is not English... As to the content of your comment - anyone who's English and has done a little skiing in the Alps will have heard of Tyrol, possibly even South-Tyrol. I cant't speak for Americans. I would also like to say that it is both regrettable and shocking to see what sort of people get involved in some Wikipedia projects - one of the reasons that ultimately I tend to rely on the Encyclopedia Brittanica and not Wikipedia.

Where did anyone use the F-word on this page? I do not see it in the history.
IP 71.105.111.73 used the word "fucking German" in his edit from 29 November 2005, 10:27, [12]. Although removed by him one minute later. I hope because he felt sorry. Gugganij 11:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Italy was occupied by Austria-Hungary for many decades. Now that the last parts were liberated and unified with the Republic is proper. As someone from Trento, I disagree with the user that has changed everything to South Tyrol, which is merely a translation of the German. There is no English translation per se, just like Parma, is Parma, etc. I suggest using Trentino-Alto Adige, as is used at the CIA world factbook, etc. The "anonymous" user above should explain the Anglo-Saxon "injustice", which is interesting indeed. I for one do not believe the Anglo is really what he says because there is again this hidden agenda to give it the name of the Austrian colonizers.

The "Anglo-Saxon" is Gryffindor.
Come on. I'm certainly not a revisionist nor a nationalist, but South Tyrol had been part of Tyrol for quite some time before the state of Italy actually started to unify. ;) ナイトスタリオン ✉ 11:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if you thought I meant you Nightstallion. I've seen your viewpoint has been quite fair and mature. It was Gryffindor I feel has some political agenda. I noticed you agreed with the dual Alto Adige/Sudtirol idea, and I also agree with this strongly. I'm very attached to this region, I love everything from Innsbruck to Trento. I personally feel shocked to see this obviously one-sided push for South Tyrol as the International name of the region by Gryffindor. In my opinion, if you are really from the area, love the area, you will respect the area. The best way I've seen so far is for Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol to be used... full stop.

Dear all - it's me again, the one who wrote the first bit in this section. I shall contribute one last time to this discussion and then leave for good, since I have no interest whatsover in getting involved any further in petty nationalist disputes. First things first: I AM British - I studied German literature at Oxford University and thus have detailed knowledge of German culture and history. My remarks were meant to be helpful in a humourous sort of way, but I now understand that some people here find Anglo-Saxon humour a little hard to take. Persistently calling my nationality into doubt in order to discredit my remarks suggests only one thing to me: that that person has a hidden nationalist agenda, certainly not me! As for anyone's astonishment concerning the idea of injustice - here's a little history for you. The medieval Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation once included more or less all German-speaking regions of today - including South Tyrol. It was the Bavarians who first brought German rule to South Tyrol not long after the fall of the Roman Empire, thus filling a power vacuum. South Tyrol has been German for some 1000 years and it is therefore incorrect to call it a German colony. Doing so suggests that you're not acquainted with modern standards of impartial historiography. Well, it's Italian now and frankly, who cares? I'm not suggesting South Tyrol should become Austrian again - so keep cool if you're an Italian reader (it won't anyway!). I very much hope that all of these silly conflicts will disappear in an ever stronger future European Union. Although fiercely proud of the legacy of the British Empire I am nonetheless able to cast a critical eye on British shortcomings - for instance in Northern Ireland. It would be nice if Italians could do the same - my God, why worry about South Tyrol when there's so much great Italian history and culture from Augustus to the Renaissance to Umberto Eco? If you're so keen on establishing an Italian perspective here, why not stick to the Italian Wikipedia? Now feel free to insult me - I shall only reply if your insult is witty and amusing. So long!

I'm sorry to say, but for you to comment that "South Tyrol" is "German" for 1,000 years is a completely partial statement. My family is from Trentino for centuries and I have plenty of relatives from Bolzano/Bozen (Alto Adige/Sudtirol). To say it has a mixed history you can be fair, beginning as a Roman province and being part of Germanic governments, yes. To say its German for 1,000 years is absolutely absurd. I believe the idea of calling Alto Adige/Sudtirol compliments the truth. Trying to suggest the English is now and forever South Tyrol obviously is biased in one direction. This is definitely not impartial to the Italians that have this as their historical home. Why not dig up the first Roman name in that case?? Also, to maintain strict impartial historiography, as you say.. the area was settled by Romans and later colonized by Germanic people. This is the true history. I don't care, I love the region and the history is what makes it my home, it is what it is.
Well, if you're going along that vein: Austria was first settled by Celts and Hungarians... ;) ナイトスタリオン ✉ 11:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I feel intrigued enough by your comments to reply once more - South Tyrol being German for a thousand years was supposed to mean that it was ruled by Germany. Of course Austrians will probably be out to lynch me now! Europe really is such a mess! I realise that there was an Italian minority in the region for some time. As for your remarks concerning the name: I'm afraid you're mixing up politics with language and name-giving. Alto Adige/Südtirol is NOT ENGLISH! If an Austrian/German came along and told me to call the region "Südtirol" here, I'd tell him to get lost. As an Italian native you may regret that the English-speaking world has adopted the German name and anglicised it, but it's a part of our language now and there's no turning back. I've asked around here and some have heard of Tyrol, nobody knew South Tyrol and nobody's ever heard of Alto Adige - which is Italian and not English. Getting upset about this is as ridiculous as Germans getting annoyed about being called "German". In this instance the English language adopted the Latin name - the French say "Allemands", which is closer to original German, since there was a Germanic tribe called the "Allemannen". The Germans call themselves "Deutsch" which I think stems from "Teutsch" and "Teutonisch" - so if we wanted to be fair to the Germans we'd have to call them the "Teutons". Well sorry Germans - but you're just going to have to accept being called "Germans". And the Italians will have to accept "South Tyrol" on this page (that is to say: "Trentino-South Tyrol" of course!).

Yep, and the Scandinavian states mostly use derivatives of Sachsen. It's quite amusing to see how many different words for "German" the different languages have managed to collect... ナイトスタリオン ✉ 11:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I am from Trento, and my opinion is that Englisk Wiki should use the most common English name. This said, accept a little precisation on the history of Trentino and Südtirol, starting a thousens years ago: in 1027 Emperor Conrad II gave the bishops of Trento and Bressanone/Brixen temporal power. The dimensions of their domains varied through the centuries, and their indipendance was continually put to test first by the Counts of Tyrol and then, after their line died out and the Habsburg inherited the title, by Austria. Indeed anyone shecking the long line of prince-bishops of Trento will find that the majority of them had Germanic names. However, this state of things went on until the Napoleonic wars: in 1796 the French army entered in Trento. There followed many changes, with the region changing hand between Austria and France several times, until in 1803 all ecclesiastic mini-states were suppressed. But lo, in 1805 Tyrol (including Trentino) was annexed to Bavaria, starting the famous revolt led by Andreas Hofer. Both the Tyrolean ethnicities fought for the return of Austria. After finally Hofer lost his war, in 1810 both Trento and Bolzano/Bozen were given to the Kingdom of Italy, while the northern part of Tyrol went to Bavaria again. 1815 saw the restoration of Austria, and the inglobation of Trentino in the larger Tyrol, under heavily punitive representation in the local parliament (7 on 52); however, the factual truth is that the common people was satisfied with the regime. On a political level, instead, Italian-speaking representatives trusted Vienna more than Innsbruck to defend their interests, while being frustrated in continuous requests to be established as an independant province. This situation basically remained untouched until the Great War, when Italy gained Trentino and Alto Adige/Südtirol, mainly because the Brenner border would have been much easier to defend than the mere Trentino-Tirol one. Note #1: Italian Tyrol is the heart of Tyrol, as proven by the presence in the territory of both village and castle Tyrol. Note #2: Brothers of Trento, cousins of Austria: even in the darkest hour our populations have not resorted to bloody feuding. Shall we really get so riled on a name? Let it be called how it's called in English... Tridentinus, 9 December 2005

Let me add an anecdote I heard in history lessons: Supposedly, Italy gained South Tyrol due to a (deliberate?) misunderstanding. Austria and Italy had signed a truce. Austria thought that the truce was binding as soon as the document had been signed; Italy, however, thought that the truce only started at midnight of the day it was signed (and rightfully so, AFAIK). Then, Italians marched through all of South Tyrol, while the Austrian military didn't realize what the heck was going on, and that's why the border is where it is.
I've never seen any source for that anecdote, but I'd be interested if anyone can confirm or discount it; I usually trust my ex-history teacher on such matters, but he's occasionally been slightly wrong before. ;) ナイトスタリオン ✉ 07:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The truce that was signed (3/XI1918) between Austria and Italy already requested that the Imperial-Royal army should retire beyond Brenner. Mind, this had been the plan all along: in 1915 Vienna offered Italy, in exchange for neutrality, Trentino (up to Lavis, (8 Km north of Trento), Gorizia, Trieste, a few island of the dalmatian coast, but Italy wanted more of Trentino. This request ended written into the treaty of London (1915), this time up tp Brenner. So, no accident. Regarding the end of WWI, it happened that the Austrian forces, who, let's recall, had missed the chance of turning around militarily the Italian front at Caporetto simply because they were so badly starved they wasted time to sack the provenders left behind by the retiring Italian army, just stopped fighting immediately. This resulted in plenty of them being captured; afterwards the high officers negotiated for a coordinated retire/advance, so as to avoid the capture of soldiers simply because of the difficulty of a fast retire. On the event of the armistice misunderstanding, the word of the "Wehrzeitung" (the Austrian army newspaper): "1 - At the beginning of November, before the armistice was signed, the whole front from Adige to Adriatic was collapsing; 2 - The idea that the enemy should have ceased hostilities before 15.00 of 4 November is unjustified: all officers should have known that for the enemy is just impossible to cease effectively hostilities the precise moment a truce is signed, because spreading the news along an extensive front requires many hours; [...]" I think they just read into the communication what they wanted to hear, that is, that it was over, and didn't read carefully. Tridentinus, 9 December 2005

Gryffindor

It should be made clear that this individual Gryffindor came and made edits on:

15:39, 25 October 2005 Gryffindor m (Trentino-Alto Adige moved to Trentino-South Tyrol)

Unilaterally making a decision on such a change and now feels he has the right to mark this change in stone and goes against others who make a similar edit. This is unethical.

Requested move #X

If the anonymous user insists... I present, vote # umpteen. —Nightstallion (?) 23:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. Current name does not exist. Britannica shows Trentino-Alto_Adige in English. We can not make WIKI a forum for revisionism. We lose the respect if we can't even use what is correct. Rossifumi-gp 01:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
    Hey now, I only have one account! Rossifumi-gp 09:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
    Yeah, now you do. —Nightstallion (?) 13:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Current name is neutral without being incorrect. —Nightstallion (?) 23:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
    excuse me, but how can you claim it is neutral when its just using Sudtirol? Oh, you are Austrian so it neutral for an Austrian to use a new English name that just happens to be nearly identical to the German and cements a German viewpoint of the region? I understand now. Quite sad for humanity.. 192.45.72.27 01:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet/IP address of Rossifumi-gp
  • Do we really have to go through this exercise again? Oppose of course. Gryffindor 23:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
    Be ashamsed of yourself. You are found out. YOU made the changes originally that started all of this unilaterally, with no vote, and now you complain about a vote? I'm ashamed to share this Earth with people that our obsessed with political revisionism such as you. Your type of selfish behavior is what ruins this Earth, and I see on your local site that you claim neutrality.. Hypocrite. Say I'm being offensive, I'm just pointing out the truth. Truly sadenned by what people like you are going to turn WIKI into. 192.45.72.27 01:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Oppose. See previous discussion. Current title is consistent with English language name used by local (Italian) authorities. -- User:Docu
  • Oppose. ...we have to vote again? I hope one day this anonymous editor will learn history a little bit better... Fantasy 09:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
i hope one day we can figure out if you are male or female from your photograph.
Wow, I love this kind of people.
When there are no more arguments, they go to the personal level. A true sign of no real arguments available.
Do you mean, that, if I was male, you would hit me harder as if I was female?
...and you don't even have the courage to use a user-name, what a great person, you really stand for your words... Fantasy 09:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
You sure always bring in violence in your discussions. Your grandfather dying for German, assuming people are going to hit you. Is there some underlying issue?
You mean Trentino - majority Italians and Alto Adige/Sudtirol - majority English? Hmm. Rossifumi-gp 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Unlike South Tyrol (which I supported remaining "South Tyrol"), Trentino-Alto Adige as a whole is a majority Italian region. Although I favor using English toponyms for article titles, South Tyrol is not semantically an equivalent for Alto Adige (even if it is geographically the same). LuiKhuntek 07:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - as native English speakers assured me that this is the proper name for the region in English. Gugganij 13:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Sock puppet votes

  • Support. I have searched my University library and have found no map that lists Trentino-South Tyrol. They are all English/American maps and show Trentino-Alto Adige. I have also read notes that show that this page was originally moved with out prior permission, which itself is against WP guidelines. Viewtool 08:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. My European history class shows this as Trentino-Alto Adige. South Tyrol sounds like a Austrian viewpoint. Wikifun-usa 04:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. Gryffindor made up the name Trentino-South Tyrol and imposed it in the first place -without- a vote. First of all, you can not just make up names that go against what any other major information source shows. Secondly, you can't impose this change unilaterally and then make it the issue that has to be voted on. Thirdly, how can we make a fair vote in such a forum? You have to go by the facts. Trentino-Alto Adige is the official name used in Italian and English maps. If you want a compromise Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol is acceptable. Trentino-South Tyrol is 110% inflamatory and is in no way neutral. Nightstallion, you should know this. Gryffindor.. well we know what he has done and what he will do. 192.45.72.27 00:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sockpuppet/IP address of
  • Support. Looking at the log, GRYFFINDOR has moved the pages and the names all on his own without prior agreement. Every major reference calls the region Trentino-Alto Adige. Using "South Tyrol" is divisive, political and German-biased. GRYFFINDOR should explain -his- actions on why he made many conversions of worlds to only German or English names that claim a German view. 71.106.187.188 03:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet/IP address of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support Alto Adige is the name used in every reference I've seen in English. Jamesbozen 04:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. Polite discussion with you Docu, but you are not correct. Go to Republics webpage, or see even here: http://www.esteri.it/eng/7_43_96.asp This is the Italian government's own ministry of foreign affairs where they clearly call in English say Piedmont and Trentino-Alto Adige. Nospu 06:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. The Google Test (tm) by far shows Trentino-Alto Adige as the more commonly used term by a huge factor. Why was this changed to South Tyrol in the first place with no discussion? Account101 06:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support Infinity88 08:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The danger and fault of Wikipedia is that you get one group in control of information that has a particular viewpoint. Austrians dominate this page and therefore their viewpoint will be what is displayed. You see this particularly with Gryffindor and to some extent Nightstallion. You can see the attitude in Fantasy saying that his grandfather died for German. Give me a break boy, many people have died in Europe. Maybe your great-great grandfather murdered the native population, ever think of that? Anyway, if you wanted to be fair you would use Alto Adige/Sudtirol, you also would keep out hearsay politically-biased statements like this and this guy said most would of voted to stay under Austria-Hungary, etc, etc. blah blah blah. But I don't see this happening, and its lost my faith in this WP project when it comes down to anything to do with politics (Turkey/Cypress, etc., etc., etc.). But just like a club you will have a few who achieve 'admin' status and worse of all, if they are young, they will not be wise enough to know what they are doing. But that is why the World has war and genocide over and over again. Flame away all you want. Its no different than usenet forums, bbs', etc. A cliche. Have fun boys and girls. Rossifumi-gp 02:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Open letter to Gryffindor: Are you 12 years old? You say this POV pushing is annoying? Do you think everyone can't see through what you are doing? You should be ashamed, as a European and as a Human. You try to make up a new term to call the region and make Wiki a political forum. You should be incredibly ashamed. YOU are the only one who is pushing POV. 192.45.72.27 00:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting: How can we possibly have fair voting on here? I or anyone else could register multiple accounts and mass vote. Or you can happen to have more Nationalistic Germans or Italians who come and want to impose something that does not fit with what is Internationally recognized. The region is known in English and Italian maps/books as Trentino-Alto Adige. Trentino-South Tyrol does not exist. Using Wiki to create new names in a political mindset is beyond unethical.

The Vote: Why don't we have the baseline as Trentino-Alto Adige, and if there is consensus on WIKI to develop new terminoloty, as Gryffindor is doing for his political ends, then we can go wild and change it to Trentino-South Tyrol.. maybe we can call Italy, South Austria.. that sounds more English to me. Boring politicians... worse than lawyers.... 192.45.72.27 01:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

HANG ON ONE MINUTE. Gryffindor originally made the move from Trentino-Alto Adige to Trentino-South Tyrol WITH NO VOTE by his own free will. What a weasel. Gryffindor, you should be banned. 192.45.72.27 01:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Before anyone goes on discussing what was first, please read m:The Wrong Version and then bring arguments for/agains moving, not about the page history. history is history. we are talking about the future. Fantasy 09:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Not moved, obviously. And to the next POV warrior who wants to try this: Not before January 2007, you hear me? —Nightstallion (?) 08:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

My idea

Sorry, I have proposed this "move" at start because in my point of view it seemed correct to me. My purpose was scientific and for this reason I not followed longer this talk. I see that there are a lot of ideological consequences and when the talk has becoming not scientific, I thought to exit from this discussion; in this moment I return (for other reasons) and I can see that the talk has going in the worse condition. I don't understand because someone has changed the previous name, but I see that there is a complex motivation to the rollback, at moment I can only understand that the choice is not based on scientific rules, but, it is a paradox, this decision is the better decision. --Ilario 17:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't wrestle with a pig...

Jesus Christ guys! I haven't been to this discussion page for several months now - and nothing's changed! A bunch of frustrated Italians obviously still can't believe that the English language refers to this region as South Tyrol. Linguistic history may be unfair, but that's just the way things are I'm afraid... As I've said before - Germans could get angry about us referring to them by their Latin name (they call themselves "Deutsch"), but so what? Of course somebody's going to tell me I'm a secret German/Austrian nationalist now... Go on, can't wait. Anyway, perhaps we could all just grow up... !? I completely agree with the previous contributor - one should stay well away from this discussion, or one is very likely to get hit in the face by a big load of muck. That reminds me of a wonderful George Bernard Shaw quote: "Don't wrestle with a pig - you get dirty and besides, the pig likes it!"

Blocking this discussion page?

What if this discussion page is blocked from editing/vandalism, or at least the most racist comments are erased? Isn't it becoming a simple dispute, unrelated to the article? --Adriano 00:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Dolomites

I am amazed this article does not deal with dolomites, surely the best part of Trentino-South Tyrol, as far as nature is concerned. Dolomites is the most celebrated area in Trentino-South Tyrol, and a lot of turists from all over the world go there every year.

Moreover, please note that in the beginning of the article, the german and ladin translation of Trentino-South Tyrol is setted before the italian one. But in the picture aside, the italian translation comes first. That's weird! Since Trentino-South Tyrol is an italian region, and most of the inhabitants are italian natives, I think we should change the order of transaltions in the text, setting the italian transaltion first. Gala.martin 16:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gala.martin,
If you had read the whole discussion page, you would have realized that your proposal on putting the Italian name before or after the other one(s) is no obvious choice. You say this region is Italian, and that's correct, since the end of World War I. But are most of the inhabitants Italian natives (or, do they feel so)?
IMO, things should remain as they are, so as to create a balance between the two linguistic realities, in order to avoid any further (and, IMO, useless) discussion on the names of this region. --Adriano 00:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think most of people in Trentino-South Tyrol feel italian. I mean, they speak Italian with friends and relatives et cetera et cetera. In fact, about 476.00 people live in Provincia di Trento, and almost all of them are italian. On the other hand about 460.000 people live in Provincia di Bolzano, and still a good part of them is italian. Of course, Bolzano (Bozen) was not an italian town. After WW1 the fascist government tried to italianize it. But that concerns more Bolzano than the whole Trentino- South Tyrol.
By the way, I think that the order of the translations is not so important at all... I just would like to see a section about Dolomites in this article. I am not the right person to write down that section, so I hope somebody else will do. Gala.martin 17:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear Gala.martin,
Dunno if, as you say, most of the people in this region feel Italian or not...
For the second question, a link to Dolomite Alps can be inserted in the article... --Adriano 15:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not live in Italy now. Anyway, I am pretty sure that most of people in the region feel italian. Maybe that's not true in Bozen's area, but it comes true if you consider the whole Trentino-South Tyrol. On the other hand, this article deals with Trentino-South Tyrol (not just Bozen). We could create an article South Tyrol to manage this kind of problems. Gala.martin 15:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Heh, there is already a South Tyrol article. In fact - and I sincerely hope it's a given - the history section of this article says the whole REGION was subjected to italianisation under fascism, which holds true for South Tyrol only - Trentino needed no such a thing. Any objection to the correction? --Tridentinus 00:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
You are right. Gala.martin 15:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Archive up to 19.03.2006

Renaming the page to South Tyrol / Südtirol / Alto Adige

Dear Wikipedians,

  1. Before opening again this discussion, please read the archive
  2. If you really think a vote is needed again, please don't do it before January 2007
  3. Take also in consideration what the italian constitution Art. 116 says: "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". This may be the "right" title, but we are probably better of with the current english title "Trentino-South Tyrol" since this is the en Wikipedia.

Thanks for helping in keeping this discussion at a reasoned level :-) Fantasy 19:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"reasoned level"? :-)--Adriano 23:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just read the discussion, what a farce. I lived in the second half of the province for three months, am a native anglophone and I never heard South Tirol. In fact, in all my years of studying and teaching I've not heard the term South Tyrol to describe the region. Sudtirol, yes of course, but not South Tyrol in English. Please, please, please, for your precious ideological linguistic consistency, rename the article Trento to Trent. Another English translation and never heard.

I've just checked out books on 'Amazon.co.uk' on this region and they almost all use 'South Tyrol' which is also the name that I remember from skiing holidays. I find it quite odd how many non-native speakers have hijacked this bizarre discussion on the region's name. Obviously this isn't about recording facts anymore but voicing political identities instead. I also strongly suggest sticking to 'Trentino-South Tyrol'.--62.158.107.18 10:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed it has become more about voicing political identities. The anglophone Austrians, rather more fluent in English than the Italians, have, presumably still ticked off by their territorial loss been denouncing anyone who dare call it by its current political name, the Alto Adige. Please, let me state again, for the sake of conformity, rename Trento, wikipedia is in dire need of another ridiculous, bizarre, inaccurate nay downright wrong English translation fudge.

Germans are not called Teutons in English (which is what they call themselves: Deutsch, Teutsch, teutonisch), but Germans instead - stemming from the Latin Germania. Names are often inaccurate translations - that's just the way it is! Alto adige is not English! But South Tyrol is. I therefore repeat: stick to Trentino-South Tyrol and for God's sake stop bringing politics into this.--62.158.77.190 20:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Alcide de Gasperi/Reichstag in Vienna

I partly reverted changes by 87.4.184.58, as no reason was given for changing this part, and I saw no reason for it to be changed. A part of it needed to be documented, namely Alcide De Gasperi's affirmation that most of Trentino-South Tyrol population didn't want to join Italy. For this reason I did not restor this section. --Adriano 17:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I saw that someone had erased a couple of sentences, but I did not revert. Indeed, as you stated above, I noted that those lines are not completely reliable. Even the part you restored has some problems (I quote):

The large Italian minority agitated for unification with Italy, making the issue a key priority for the irredentist movement in Italian politics. Some say that in reality, aside from certain political circles based in Trento, the vast majority of the population never really warmed up to the idea of joining the newly created Italian Kingdom, as their alleagence lays with the Habsburg Empire.. First, irredentism concerned only the Trent area, where italian people were/are a very large majority. Bolzano/Bozen was annexed after WWI becuase of Austria defeat, but it was not considered italian even by irredentists. Secondly, note that this article (as many others) provides no reference. Therefore, statements as like Some say, certain political circles, never really warmed up do not really sound encyclopedic at all. Moreover, both in Austria and Italy, before WWII only a few people were interested in politics. So, the vast majority of population warmed up for nothing at all in that years. I think that irredentism concerning Trent was widespread between italian people interested in politics (upper middle class etc), and most of the historians agree with me (well, actually, I agree with them :) ). Anyway, this can be a disputed issue, and probably googling around you can find sites supporting both the opinions. So, my purpose is:

  • Let's fix the first sentence, maybe saying that annexing Trentino (not South Tyrol) was considered the final step for italian unification, since Trentino was/is an italian region.
  • Let's erase the second sentence (Some say...)
  • Let's try to add some undisputed reference. I have some books that should fit, but unfortunately I am abroad, and I will not be back home before August.
Sorry for the long comment, but this article seems to warm up the vast majority of wikipedians, so I want to be cautious. gala.martin (what?) 21:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Gala.martin
You are right in using caution on this point... Unfortunately I am not too strong on that historical issue, and I cannot help much in verifying these assertions. Many other Wikipedians could help though, by searching evidense on the above-mentioned issue...
Until no consensus is reached, I think it makes sense to erase these sentences.
--Adriano 15:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

To put into a more fact-based perspective the political stance of the majority of the Tridentine population, it could be useful to point out that as the electoral base enlarged, Trentino sent to Vienna six Catholics, the others being a Socialist (Battisti) and a Liberal. Notice they all were well integrated within the Austrian parties. And the catholics’ stance, obviously spearheaded by Degasperi, was that Trentino was fine as long as its Italian cultural identity wasn’t in danger. Controversy really was the administrative situation of Trentino within Austria: a punitive representation within the Tyrolean parliament meant Trentino was gravely disadvantaged in it (after 1861, 21 representatives on 68), thus the objective was to be released from it. Notice this had been a constant in Tridentine politics ever since the annexation to Austria (I’m going from memory now, but I believe that in the first half of the XIX century Trentino had in Innsbruck 7 representatives out of 51), asking for an independent land or, back then, for unity with Lombardy-Venetia. In fact, in Kremsier this was granted, but subsequently taken back with a second vote because of German Tyrolean heavy pressure.
Primary sources on Degasperi’s early wartime declarations are ambassador in Rome count Macchio’s report to Berchtold, 6-X-1914, quoted more or less in any book detailing the topic, and in Friedrich Funder’s “Vom Gestern ins Heute”.
Ahem. Bottom line: the population before the first world war supported a pragmatic stance as held firmly by Degasperi, Conci and the other Christian Socials of Trentino. However, to see how the effect of WWI administration changed much of that, I direct you to this fundamental source on Degasperi: this page has both the Italian version and reproductions of the Vienna parliament “Stenographische Protokolle” of a dramatic speech by Degasperi in 1918. Final note: “making the issue a key priority for the irredentist movement in Italian politics” is really maladroit, considering that the very essence of irredentism was to reclaim all territories inhabited by Italians to Italy. Kind of suggesting that, say, “the Indonesian government's aim is to govern Indonesia” :) Best, --Tridentinus 09:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


Dear Tridentinus,
I do not want to cause another endless discussion. But, for clarity's sake, when you talk about Trentino, do you mean the Province of Trento or the whole Trentino South-Tyrol? Regards.--Adriano 01:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for not having been precise: of course I was talking about Trentino only. As, in fact, was Degasperi, who was questioned by Macchio (and, incidentally, Italian minister Sonnino around the same time; see Il giovane De Gasperi/Der junge De Gasperi, a bilingual book published in 2004 by the Regional Council of Trentino-South Tyrol) about the loyalties of the Tridentine people. Also, I don't want to create a discussion, I was merely answering a question. No polemic intent. Peace, --Tridentinus 09:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


Peace!--Adriano 11:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Edit-block for IP-Adresses

I bocked IP-edits temporarely since some IP-Editors don't respect edits by other people. Sorry for that. I hope we can unprotect the page again soon. (When the anonym people promise to stop vandalising).

If you have something to say, add your comment at the END of a discussion.

Signing your comment is very much appreciated.

If you change comments of other people, that is vandalism in Wikipedia. Please stop doing this, thanks. Fantasy 10:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a question: why doesn't wikipedia simply block the possibility to edit articles by non registered users? I once read that it would soon be so... --Adriano 15:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Quite simple: Most anonymous edits are very valuable edits. Only a view people try to hide their bad deeds. I was also not able to believe it, but just read the IP edits in recent changes, and you will see, we would loose many many good things ;-) Fantasy 15:17, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation...--Adriano 15:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Mainly, editing from unregistered users is wikipedia. If you force people to join the project, that's not wiki anymore. Registration is available in order to improve coordination, but wild contributions are the core of the project (even if most of edits are done by registered users). --gala.martin (what?) 14:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree on this point. My impression is only that most of vandalism is carried out by non registered users... --Adriano 11:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Should we protect the page against anonymous users and new ones in that case? Gryffindor 21:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


Dunno. Seems that all this vandalism is calming down now... --Adriano 16:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I unprotected this page now again, it should never be a long-term blocking, just a tool to calm down extremists and people who have problems.

It seems there is someone who really has problems but I don't want to block Wikipedia for flaming people like this one. If you see fascist accusations somewhere about someone, just delete it, this is not the way to work in Wikipedia. We use arguments.

I look forward to read also good anonym contributions :-) Fantasy 18:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

italyzone.it spam link?

Please note: someone (signing with "Enrico 69") has insisted in inserting a link - namely italyzone.it - on the Trentino-South Tyrol page - even after that a registered user had removed it. Not being a big expert in Wikipedia rules, I thought to remove it once more, opening a discussion on whether this is spam or not. --Adriano 07:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

should be moved

This page should be moved to either: 1) Trentino-Alto Adige or 2) Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. I will be asked to read the archives, and I have. A user Gryfindor has pushed for South Tyrol with an obsession, originally moving the page without consensus. If you simply use the Google Test, you will find that Trentino-Alto Adige is the name used in English. I've seen this page has been cleaned up a lot though, taking out the strong German POV.

Dear anonymous contributer,
This matter has already been discussed previously. Please read what has already been discussed under Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name.
Regards. --Adriano 19:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Adriano, how can you ask me this, whe I said I read all the previous discussions. I respect there have been previous discussions, but that does not mean the decisions were correct. As I've said, this page was originally moved without consensus by the user Gryffindor. After that there have many Austrians that have pushed for a particular English naming convention. To me, after considering all the points, and the actual reality of the situation, this page should really be listed as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Also, the provinces are Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) and Trentino (TN). That we now have the Province of South Tyrol (BZ) is becomming a bit crazy, don't you think? It is really simple, we should have the REGION Trentino-Alto Adige/Suditirol. The next pages being the Province of Bolzano-Bozen and the Province of Trento. Then finally the cities, Bolzano-Bozen and Trento. take care. Taalo 20:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Name of South Tyrol / Bozen Province

What's the name of the norther Trentino-South Tyrol province? If you read the map on the page, it says Bozen. If you follow the rule-of-thumb, all other Italian provinces are named after their main city. I do not see the reason why this province should make exception... Moreover in the article it states "In Bolzano-Bozen province or South Tyrol.." , so it should be accepted. Before causing a row on this point, by changing it once more, I would like to see if there is consensus on this point. --Adriano 19:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The name of the northern province is Bolzano-Bozen. The name of the southern province is Trento. This part is kind of obvious if you see any list of the provinces of Italy.  :) Taalo 20:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Trentino Alto Adige/Sudtirol

Open letter to all. I, as is Fantasy, am from this region. My family has been from here for centuries, and I have both Italian and German blood. I'm so proud of this region, it is beyond explanation. Why not? It is my home. I love to go down to Bolzano-Bozen and see both the Germans and Italians. I would be happy to meet with Fantasy one day, share a bottle of Forst, because anyone from this region has a strong connection. What I have seen though on the WP pages is downright depressing and is an insult to this region. You don't have to be Ph.D. to look at how things have been manipulated to put things in a particular POV, a German POV. I am part German for God's sake, but I wouldn't want to see this sort of bias. The region should simply be labeled on WP as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. This is how it is in the constitution, and this shows how WE, the people from this region, call this region. It is easy to look at Sudtirol and say South Tyrol in English, yes. But this is taking advantage to enforce a particular POV. What is more crazy is seeing now the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) listed as simply South Tyrol. What are we playing on here now, colonization through WP? The provinces (states, what have you) are Bolzano-Bozen and Trento. You see this on any list of provinces of Italy, you see it on the signs locally, you see it on the license plates of the cars. I have a TN and BZ license plate hanging up here in my room! Also, all the names in BZ are listed with both Italian-German, just as in French Canada both names are listed. We list them as Bolzano-Bozen, Merano-Meran, Brennero-Brenner. This is again on all the signs. Switching them around to Bozen-Bolzano, etc. is just getting to the point of being ridiculous. Please lets correct things finally and drop this game. What has been done is really just very sadening, and I think I'm going out on a limb here putting my emotions out on the table like this. Please respect my region, my home. Taalo 21:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Taalo, my only question to you is how you mention that "it is my home" yet you tell me on my talk page "but I am a native English speaker based in the USA"? Which one is it? Are you from the region, now living in the US? Is your heritage from the region (as my heritage is from England and Bavaria)? Or are you living over there now? Rarelibra 03:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
my heritage is from the region, I call US my birthplace and home. I visit the region every year, so I'm definitely aware what is actually fact or fiction. Taalo 18:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The question is: how is this region called in English by English mothertongue (and not in German, Italian or Ladin)? This is the point. As long as there is a re-direct link from the other options, all those who want to reach this article will be able to do so.
IMHO, all the rest regards politics, and has nothing to do here.
Please also remember that this is just a name. ("That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet.") Ok, you could say that people fought - and even died - to use one or the other... but in Italian or German. Not in English.
To Taalo, you say that you have read the previous discussions, and that the fact that a previous discussion was closed doesn't mean that it was correct.
By reading what you write it seems to me that you do not bring any new points which could entail a re-opening of the discussion... I say that out of my memory, and I may be wrong.
So, please, could you state what are the new elements, if any, which could bring to reconsidering the renaming? --Adriano 10:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Adriano, English is my mothertonque. In English we actually simply call this region Trentino-Alto Adige. Check out the CIA world factbook on Italy as an example. That's it, simple. Well, how about the point that the page for the Province of Bolzano is called South Tyrol? You are from Italy, I assume? You should definitely be aware then the names of the provinces of Italy. In my region, there are two: Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano/Bozen. I can't believe I have to argue for this point. :) ciao. Taalo 18:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Adrianao - Here are the 'new' elements needed: http://www.countriesandcities.com, where they actually have the correct English usage for the regions: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/regions.htm, and the provinces: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm. Note that where there is an English translation availble: Naples (Napoli), Venice (Venezia), the English is used. It should be noted there is no English translation of places like Trento and Bolzano (or the German Bozen). Definitely the translation of the Province of Bolzano-Bozen is not South Tyrol. So Taalo is correct, and the renaming shall commence to correct this situation. Rarelibra 12:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
You would *really* imagine that that reference http://www.countriesandcities.com, would of been enough to set the record straight. I mean, you how describe this all above is 100% correct. Taalo 19:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The official site (http://www.regione.trentino-a-adige.it/) has no listing of "South Tyrol" - only the Italian version (Trentino-Alto Adige) and the German version (Trentino-SÜDTIROL). The proper English equivalent is "Upper Adige" (as "alto" is "upper"). So that is what it should be. I am getting administrators involved to stop this nonsense and to make it correct, and to get rid of "South Tyrol". Rarelibra 16:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Even though what is funny with this website, is if you go to it and click on "Provincia autonoma di Bolzano" or "Bozen", you get the front page of the provincial website, http://www.provincia.bz.it/ that says in English "Welcome to South Tyrol". I don't know if people have been confused by this, or have used it to their advantage. But I can say, there is definitely a misconception that can be had from this page. They are saying welcome to the region, instead of welcome to the Province of Bolzano/Bozen -- which the province is clearly called. Hey, never put it past us Italian/Austrians to make things confusing. :) Taalo 19:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
South Tyrol is a long-standing English term for the German "Südtirol." "Upper Adige" is, so far as I am aware, not a term commonly used in English. Personally, Trentino-Alto Adige is the name I am most familiar with, but I see no particular problem with use of the term "South Tyrol" in English. john k 16:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that South Tyrol is a common English translation of the German Südtirol. Upper Adige is a less clear translation, because in English we usually use just the Alto Adige. So is it better then to call the page Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol? The important thing, in my opinion, is to include both the Italian-German. Taalo 19:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I personally see issue with it, as there is no reference to "South Tyrol" at all, especially in an official capacity (how much more official can you get than the home page of the region?). "South Tyrol" is an English derivative of "Sudtirol", however, the region is Italian, and such the proper translation should come from the "Alto-Adige" or "Upper Adige". If you really want to get technical, you can call it all the names... thus, it would be "Trentino-Upper Adige" (Trentino-South Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige, Trentino-Sudtirol). But the proper name should be Trentino-Alto Adige. Since people keep pushing a German or Austrian POV, that makes this article INCORRECT. The proper POV here is English (hence, an English wiki article). So, if anything, the proper translation is "Upper Adige" or simply use the "Trentino-Alto Adige" version. Rarelibra 16:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually it is true that the most correct way to call the page would be Trentino-Alto Adige. This is how the page was called until it was moved without consensus in October of 2005. If you do a Google Test, Trentino-Alto Adige comes up in the 10s of millions. It is also the name used in the CIA factbook, etc., etc., etc. However, as this is obviously a big deal amongst Italians and Germans in this mixed Italian-German region, it seems reasonable to come up with a title page that reflects the mixed heritage. Even in the Italian constitution they list it as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Lets have the German side give a little too, ok? Trentino-Alto Adige, Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol, Trentino Alto Adige/South Tyrol, Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol could all be compromises. Trentino-South Tyrol clearly is not. That said, calling the Province of Bolzano/Bozen instead South Tyrol. Now that is getting actually -- extreme. Taalo 18:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

FOR THE RECORD

All of the official sources list the name correct as stated.

The references are as follows: http://www.statoids.com/uit.html http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956 http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135 http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm

The region is "Trentino-Alto Adige" (alternate name "Sudtirol"), and the province is "Bolzano" (alternate name "Bozen"), and the town is "Bolzano" (although the Italians list it as "Bolzano-Bozen" for the dual-names method). That is INDISPUTABLE and solves this. Rarelibra 20:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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