Talk:Treasure (Cocteau Twins album)

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BetacommandBot 05:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems...

...the tussle about dreampop/ethereal will never end.

Ethereal, ethereal goth, ethereal pop, ethereal rock are '80s terms. There is absolutely no doubt about it. '80s reviews and classified ads are full of this "ethereal thing". Dreampop doesn't appear in any '80s review (except for A.R. Kane, i guess, but only as a self-description).

"Ethereal wave" may be a strange term, but it's just an alternative term, primarily used in Central Europe. Of course it's unknown in the U.S., like "dark wave" itself (an European catch-all term for dark '80s new wave music). People know about darkwave because Projekt records used the term in the early '90s. They took it from the Germans (Hyperium records and German music magazines such as "Zillo").

But back to the point. The term variants are not important. Important is the meaning of the terms and, of course, the historical context. I mean it's really a simple fact that "ethereal" is older than "dreampop". And it is also a simple fact that "dreampop" was only a synonym of "shoegazing". Cocteau Twins were never shoegazing. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 23:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

"simple fact" = RivetHeadCulture's personal, very subjective opinions.Greg Fasolino (talk) 01:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

So you call music magazines POV? You should know better. They are primary sources. Read Option music magazine, Sound Choice, Alternative Press etc. There was no "dreampop" in the '80s. It only desribed A.R. Kane's personal music. Dreampop became a synonym of shoegazing. And every fucking single source from the '90s underlines this fact. It didn't describe anything else. That's a historical fact, not "Rivet's POV". --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 09:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

No, what I meant was, the very idea that music genres are created/named only at the time they are formed or prevalent, and are never applied/used/accrued over time, or applied retroactively ("classical" music was not called "classical" when it was being created, to use the most basic and obvious example) is not only inaccurate, but is your personal POV. We've been over this ad nauseum. You seem vehemently and stubbornly set in the notion that genres are formed instantly and are then inviolate and unchanging in how they are defined or applied. That's never been true and never will be.Greg Fasolino (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Gothic rock, trip hop, technopop (synthpop), drum & bass, house music and hundreds of other terms... Popular music is different from classical music. It is POV if you categorize a band retroactively. We have to accept the fact that there is no '80s source for dreampop. Chameleons, Dif Juz, Breathless, Durutti Column... They are post-punk bands, not dreampop. Dreampop is connected to shoegazing, a genre heavily influenced by noise pop. You call it POV. I call it well-sourced. It's that simple. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 19:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"Popular music is different from classical music." Says you. That's an opinion not a fact. " It is POV if you categorize a band retroactively." There are many popular music genres that are used "retroactively." Krautrock is a great example. Gothic rock is a great one. Trust me, it wasn't commonly used until about 1983, yet lots of records from 1979-82 are retroactively defined as goth. Doom metal is a great one. Not a term commonly used in the '70s yet bands like Sabbath and Pentagram define the term retroactively. Greg Fasolino (talk) 00:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It is different. In my country, it's called "E-Musik" and "U-Musik". "U-Musik" includes short-living genres and trends, mostly subsumed under the term "popular music". "E-Musik" has a bigger historical and scientific background.

1983? The music press called it "gothic" right from the beginning (Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie & The Banshees). Steven Severin himself described "Join Hands" as "gothic". Black Sabbath is considered proto-Doom, yes. But this is a scientific consensus. Not the POV of an unimportant Wikipedian. Treasure might be "dreampop" in some way. But it isn't generally accepted. It is and will remain the POV of some post-millennium teenagers who try to re-define an entire genre. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 13:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Music is art, not science. There's a difference :) You are confusing a random adjective with a "genre". They are not mutually equivalent. Genre names often start as an adjective, sometimes picked up right away into wide use, but often not used in a general sense to describe a genre until quite later. A few random uses of "gothic" by music critics in the 1979-81 period, as an adjective, does not mean it was a genre then. NOBODY considered those bands "goth" bands in 1981 because there was no such thing. There was no "gothic" genre. At the time, those bands were just considered post-punk. The term "goth" didn't coalesce into wide usage as a genre name until later. Don't believe me? Go buy some old issues from the 1980-81 period of the British music papers, Trouser Press, Creem, New York Rocker, etc., and you will find no mention of this as-yet-undefined genre. Consensus? Dreampop is a very, very popular genre term, so it's completely subjective on your part, in deriding those folks as "unimportant" but others as "scientific." That's wholly your personal biases. The 21,000 listeners using it on last.fm? (http://www.last.fm/tag/dream%20pop) Guess they are "unimportant". AllMusic critics? (http://www.last.fm/tag/dream%20pop) "unimportant" All the thousands of folks on Facebook who make sure to include the term in their pages, alongside shoegaze, because they recognize the two genres are related but not equivalent? (https://www.facebook.com/ShoegazeDreampop, https://www.facebook.com/ShoegazeDreamPopEthereal, https://www.facebook.com/shoegazr.de)...all "unimportant". You just don't personally like the term, and therefore try to make everyone else stop using a genre name we all find useful and meaningful as listeners, musicians and journalists. I will continue to refute your assertions....I am not a teenager, will be 50 this summer and I bought "Treasure" the day it was released. Have a dreampoppy day! :) Greg Fasolino (talk) 16:46, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Gothic' has become a somewhat overworked definition of the genre, but the effect of Joy Division is the same as ...that of the Banshees." — Penny Kiley, October 1979

I don't really care about genre terms. Call it dreampop, call it panty fart or dog turd. I don't care. If i translate Dreampop or Ethereal Wave into my language, it sounds like a load of New Age cheese. I didn't invent and i didn't popularize those terms. I didn't add dreampop to the infobox and i didn't remove it.

I also don't care about LastFM and all this stuff. And i'm really not a fan of AllMusic. It's non-serious and unencyclopedic, not a reliable source.

And again. Yes, i know who you are. But let's be more realistic, Greg. You are one of a few older people who support this re-defined dreampop thing. Most supporters are guys in their twenties. In the heyday of dreampop, they pooped in their diapers and spat spinach at their mothers' face. --RivetHeadCulture (talk) 19:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Canadian release

the Canadian lp release of Treasure included the Aikea-Guinea ep as a bonus disc, complete with heavy cardstock cover

I can see the Canadian cassette also included the four songs from that ep, but mixed into the Treasure tracklisting

don't know if any other countries released Treasure in the same way, but that's how we knew it in Canada in the 80s

J Edward Malone (talk) 18:13, 11 May 2017 (UTC)