Talk:Transracial (identity)

Question

Does this term, transracial, apply to African Americans who pass as white? Is it only being used for white people who pass as Black? What about a white person who lives in Africa as a local, but only identifies by their name?

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because this is a real construct and there are at least several high profile individuals who claim to identify with it. There was a time in history where "transgender" would have been a page to "speedily delete" but now it is mainstream. Transracialism has not gotten nearly as much press and academic attention, and the attention that it did get has been, unfortunately, mostly negative (i.e. Dolezal getting fired by the NAACP). This page must be allowed to remain, and evolve. --Samnoland (talk) 01:18, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

The article should be deleted because it was already discussed and the consensus was to delete it. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Transracial identity. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

The article shouldn't be deleted. Wikipedia is not a democracy. Transracial identity is a real construct, it's been widely discussed in the media and academia, and there's high-profile people who genuinely identify with it.--Crookshane (talk) 11:29, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

"There was a time in history where "transgender" would have been a page to "speedily delete" but now it is mainstream." Following that logic there will be some new, bizarre, irrational trend in several years, like the budding movement to normalize and make excuses for child molesters. Someone will want that page deleted too but someone like you will say "they wanted to delete the transracial and even the transgender pages too...but now everyone pretends it's a thing now, it's mainstream!" When does it end? With transracial....nope, transspecies will be coming and other depraved trans-sicknesses. I thought that you just wanted gay marriage rights? The slippery slope is all too real. Next will be incestuous marriage equality and people like you will not be able to say it's wrong since the same arguements/depraved logic used for that will be used by the incest groups and their liberal allies. You are just digging a hole that is too deep to climb out of. STOP!!! --User:anon (talk) 11:29, 13 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:244:4200:95B0:DC34:BC9:4E7:6EDE (talk)

"Please try and keep a neutral point of view and avoid purposefully offensive language, even on the talk page. You can make a comment regarding whether this page should be deleted without intentionally insulting trans-identified people; suggesting that liberals as a group are the allies of those who practice incest; using the words 'depraved,' "bizarre,' or 'irrational.' There is no "slippery slope" - consenting adults have the right to identify however they want. Instead of taking offense, perhaps try and see Dolezal's point of view in a compassionate, tolerant manner. To be clear, I do not know if I agree with the idea of Transracial identities, but Dolezal is not really harming me or anyone else (unless you feel ideas are mortally threatening). --2603:3016:204:B1E0:0:0:0:15E7 (talk) 19:10, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Is Shaun King Transracial?

Earlier he was listed as such, with documents being displayed that he was labeled white at a police hearing. Other's consider family testimony, and visual evidence of his brothers, or even of the fact that he, in his own admission, is only slightly black. (<10%).2601:982:4200:A6C:D503:7794:5DA9:ADE2 (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Please read WP:BLP. Unless King says he is transracial, and reliable sources report that as a fact, Wikipedia cannot state that he is transracial. The same goes for any other living or recently deceased person. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

By the way, the sources cited concerning King included an article from Snopes.com that rejected the assertion that he was reported to be white in the police report. The officer involved said that everybody, himself included, knew King was biracial, but there were two boxes to choose between, white and black, and King's white mother was there so he checked white. You really need to read the sources you cite. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I never cited the sources, simply saw that the article changed, and was curious why.2601:982:4200:A6C:9459:D3F9:E9FF:76D (talk) 23:44, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Any mention of Shaun King and ethnicity is a third rail on Wikipedia. Unfortunately, it's not worth trying to convince anyone, I promise your efforts will be in vain. 2601:18F:4101:4830:A8D2:F87:E1D8:BF70 (talk) 05:32, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Let's correct

"...is a white American but identifies as an African American." may change to "...is a transracial African American who was assigned as white at birth."

192.116.90.206 (talk) 19:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

We could change that, if reliable sources reported that any reputable scientists (including social scientists) believed there was such a thing as a "transracial" person. Instead, we'll follow Wikipedia policy and summarize what the sources say on the subject. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

African-American is an ethnicity not race. Hence, African immigrants do not identify as African-American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:B16C:FF01:A01B:F9F7:57C4:ED1D (talk) 08:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Open minds

The nervous discussion in this talk page is similar to many others I saw. I think that there is place for emotional speech in Facebook etc, but here we supposed to deal a various of topics without early opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.154.8.98 (talk) 22:43, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

agreed 110.138.84.182 (talk) 01:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Not widely accepted

user:Shelbystripes You added a sentence referencing the Hypatia journal stating "As of 2017, transracialism is not widely recognized by the academic community as a legitimate phenomenon". I read the journal and could not find this quote. Forgive me but am I missing something? 2600:1012:B058:B242:9C46:6D90:A16A:F37 (talk) 08:15, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Anyone? 2600:1012:B00D:9DF7:E816:D488:7DC2:417A (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

user:MShabazz My biggest complaint was the unsourced info above - thats why I reverted. I did bring to talk (see above). 2602:306:330B:7B00:A84E:E048:F214:2221 (talk) 18:16, 12 February 2018 (UTC) user:Malik Shabazz Can you please address the above? There was unsourced material added. That is what I reverted. I welcome discussion on the matter but you continue to revert without discussing at talk. Please help me improve the article. 2602:301:772D:62D0:716E:7C7B:2496:94F (talk) 02:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

You added material about a living person without sources that satisfy our WP:BLP policy. (FrontPageMag.com is never a reliable source for facts, only for the opinions of its authors. See WP:RSOPINION.) BLP trumps almost every other Wikipedia policy, which is why it says (in part):

All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. [emphasis in original]

With respect to your other point, I recommend you read the very first paragraph of the source:

Former NAACP chapter head Rachel Dolezal's attempted transition from the white to the black race occasioned heated controversy. Her story gained notoriety at the same time that Caitlyn Jenner [footnote omitted] graced the cover of Vanity Fair, signaling a growing acceptance of transgender identity. Yet criticisms of Dolezal for misrepresenting her birth race indicate a widespread social perception that it is neither possible nor acceptable to change one's race in the way it might be to change one's sex. Considerations that support transgenderism seem to apply equally to transracialism. Although Dolezal herself may or may not represent a genuine case of a transracial person, her story and the public reaction to it serve helpful illustrative purposes.

While the sentence "transracialism is not widely recognized by the academic community as a legitimate phenomenon" is not included, it is pretty clear from the paragraph I quoted that transracialism is not as widely recognized as transgender identity is. This is confirmed throughout the source, in which the author argues that transracialism should be as accepted as transgender identity is, meaning it is not currently as widely accepted. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:38, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, well can we change it back to how the article was, just WITHOUT the sentence stating that "transracialism is not widely accepted by the academic community"? 2602:301:772D:62D0:716E:7C7B:2496:94F (talk) 02:42, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

user:Malik Shabazz I removed the offending sentence but left the rest of the article as you had it. Is that ok with you? 2602:301:772D:62D0:716E:7C7B:2496:94F (talk) 02:48, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

No, why would it be okay? It completely ignores what the source says and what the reality is. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:04, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

user:donner60 please look at the edit I made. It was the removal of one sentence - NOT the BLP violating info discussed earlier. Could you please self revert? 2602:301:772D:62D0:716E:7C7B:2496:94F (talk) 02:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I saw that I had intervened while you and @Malik Shabazz: were both editing and trying to reach a satisfactory state. Realizing that I may have made a mistake by getting in the middle of this, I just left a message for User:Malik Shabazz asking for help in getting this to a satisfactory condition. I had intended to reinsert the sentence but without the phrase at the end of it, not to delete it altogether. Now that everyone is working on this at the same time, and being concerned that I may not be reaching the most accurate statement, I think this is a case of "too many cooks." I think we are all trying for the most accurate text but I have become the "third wheel." (Too many cliches, I know.) In any event, if you do not mind, I think the best solution is for Malik Shabazz and you to reach the final version without me also meddling with it. If there is some problem with this, I will make the further edit that I mentioned. I will not revert any further edit that you or Malik Shabazz make. Thanks for your patience and understanding. Donner60 (talk) 03:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

user:donner60 thank you. user:Malik Shabazz I am genuinely confused. I see absolutely nothing in the source stating "Transracialism is not widely accepted by the academic community". That's the sentence I wish to remove - I agree with you the other changes you made are fine. Again I am a newish user so please help me because I simply don't see it. The sentence is both SYNTH and OR at best - more importantly it does not reflect the source accurately. 2600:1012:B00B:A10C:3DCD:EA96:F03E:15E4 (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you have access to the source? (If not, I'll see if I can post it.) Have you read the first paragraph, which I copied and pasted above? The fact is, transracialism isn't widely accepted as a legitimate phenomenon in either the academic community or the world outside the ivory tower. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:16, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

user:Malik Shabazz how about this? Let's stick with the source and change the sentence to: "There is widespread social perception that it is neither possible nor acceptable to change one's race in the way it might be to change one's sex" Does that work for you? 2602:301:772D:62D0:F4BD:4AA5:32AF:6A19 (talk) 03:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Well I made the change, let me know what you think. 2602:301:772D:62D0:D07:74B:184D:BD1 (talk) 03:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it sucks. First, you violated the three-revert rule. Second, the article now states somebody's opinion as if it were a fact. (See WP:INTEXT for information about how to attribute an opinion.) You may believe, as the author of "In Defense of Transracialism" does, that transracial identity is analogous to transgender identity, but the majority of people in both academia and the public disagree. This article should say that, in no uncertain terms. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:04, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

user:donner60 and user:Malik Shabazz thank you both for your comments and insight, I have read all of them and taken them to heart. Malik I can see how I came across as tenditious or with an axe to grind and for that I apologize. I am open to any suggestions as to how to improve this article and will also be registering for an account. In the meantime I am going to look for some less contentious areas to edit. I will keep an eye on this page but will not attempt to edit further BEFORE having clear consensus to do so here at the talk page. Thanks again both. 2600:1012:B04A:F8FC:454:D0E4:6B33:506A (talk) 02:47, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

If you have not done so, please read Malik Shabazz's recent helpful comments on my talk page. Thanks. Donner60 (talk) 02:50, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Grey Owl

Is Grey Owl an example of transracial identity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epiphyllumlover (talk • contribs) 18:50, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

How about Michael Jackson? — Preceding unsigned comment added by an IP editor 21:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Lead sentence change

I suggest the lead sentence should read "Transracial people have a racial identity or racial expression that differs from their race at birth." --Westwind273 (talk) 21:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Jessica Krug

I reverted an addition to the article that cites a Medium post. There's no indication of verified identity on Medium.com, and this appears to be the only post made by that account. The only independent source reporting on this so far is the New York Post (RfC on NY Post appears to be headed for an "unreliable" determination). Per WP:BLP, I don't think this content should be added until we have a solid reliable source. Schazjmd (talk) 19:15, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

NM, Washington Post has gone with the story. Will add it back with that ref. Schazjmd (talk) 19:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Inconceivably it was removed. I restored it.Dogru144 (talk) 22:40, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

New NYT article

This might be useful as a source, about this general topic or for specific bios:
Viren, Sarah (May 28, 2021). "The Native Scholar Who Wasn't". The New York Times.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Neutral point of view missing

Short description is hardly written from neutral point of view. Sjmantyl (talk) 08:19, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2021

I recommend adding the following source and related sources contained therein under theoretical approaches to transracial identity: https://blog.apaonline.org/2021/07/06/changing-identities-are-race-and-gender-analogous/ 2607:FEA8:55DE:1C00:C5AC:8AC7:65E:9293 (talk) 22:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Not sure blogs are reliable sources.CycoMa (talk) 22:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

POV issues

The elephant in the room that's barely mentioned in the article is that "transracial" is a mimicry of transgender. This is despite the fact that "racial identity" is not proven to exist in the same way that gender identity is. In addition the concept of "transracial" is heavily criticized within the LGBT community because it is used in attempts to discredit transgender people. It is also criticized as racist. None of this is mentioned in the article, other than a quick note in a section that defends the concept instead. This article is not neutral; it gives unwarranted legitimacy to the concept, and contains defenses of the concept while also only containing relatively small-scale criticisms from the transracial adoption community, not the meat of the criticism which is that it serves to attempt to discredit transgender people and amounts to racial appropriation. PBZE (talk) 07:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

PBZE here’s the thing there are legit individuals who identify as transracial. The examples aren’t troll examples.

Also do you have any sources that argue transracial doesn’t exist the same way gender identity does? Gender identity in itself is subjective.CycoMa (talk) 18:33, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

CycoMa When I googled "transracial" the only front page results that discussed transracial identity rather than exclusively transracial adoption were these two:

• No, you can’t identify as ‘transracial’. But you can affirm your gender
• Being ‘Transracial’ Is Real—but It’s Not What Racist White People Claim It Is - Rewire News Group

The first criticizes the concept of "transracial" from within the LGBT community, the second from the transracial adoption community. I don't know if there are peer-reviewed academic sources explicitly stating that transracial identity doesn't exist the same way gender identity does. But the point is that there are no sources showing that it does; there is scientific evidence that gender identity is innate and unchangeable, but no evidence that the same applies to racial identity, or that people are neurologically different depending on their race. The fact that the introduction of the article, before I changed it, was an almost word-for-word copy of the definition of "transgender", including speaking of "racial identity" as a concept equivalent to gender identity, is indicative of the article's POV issues.

Regardless, there is significant criticism of the concept of "transracial" from within the LGBT community. The fact that that criticism is not included in the article, yet counterarguments of that criticism are, means the article is not neutral. PBZE (talk) 23:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

CycoMa Whoops, realized I messed up my signature PBZE (talk) 01:34, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

PBZE gender identity in itself is subjective just look what the article on gender identity. Even Wikipedia’s article on gender identity says it’s subjective.CycoMa (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation?

Should we add the cultural appropriation category to this page? I was also wondering if the "Transracial people" category could also get that category in addition to the "Race-related controversies" category. Amadeus1928 (talk) 03:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I think this looks like a good solution, adhering best, among the others I saw, to most of the pillars and basis on which to maintain Wikipedia. Prezuntu (talk) 02:06, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2021

I would like Charlie Pride to be recognized as a pioneering transracial person. Thx in advance. 2600:1702:9D0:48E0:951A:39F6:231F:87CA (talk) 02:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — IVORK _Talk 03:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Charley Pride (submitter spelled it wrong) wasn't transracial. His first singles were sent to radio stations in the 1950's without a publicity photo to hide his identity as a black artist so his music would be played and judged on merit and not blacklisted because of race, which happened at some radio stations after his race became known. Pride, who died from COVID in 2020, disputed this though. He said the omission of a photo was not deliberate but had to do with promoters not wanting to promote black artists in the country music field. He was already known as a baseball player. In 1992, Pride said, "They used to ask me how it feels to be the 'first colored country singer' ... Then it was 'first Negro country singer;' then 'first black country singer.' Now I'm the 'first African-American country singer.' That's about the only thing that's changed". More on his Wikipedia page and here: https://apnews.com/article/sports-race-and-ethnicity-willie-nelson-dallas-music-444eaaf7e0c3ff9f78310dbc73ad7625. --P37307 (talk) 13:43, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorting the examples

Do we want to sort the list of examples, e.g. alphabetically or chronologically, or is the current haphazard order fine? -sche (talk) 03:20, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@-sche: I'm fine with alphabetical.CycoMa (talk) 03:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Skynews-oli-london-korean-backlash 5431180.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:23, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead/article naming.

The lead is currently lacking any mention of the debate surrounding the term - the criticism of the term and controversy over individuals such as Dolezel are the primary factors behind why there's even an article on this at all. To be even more blunt, this article should be renamed "transracial identity controversy". Transracial being seen as a legitimate identity or dysphoria is currently lacking in recognition. SinoDevonian (talk) 17:24, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Hence, I propose the following changes: Article name change to reflect the fact the identity is disputed as either not being real in any deep seated sense akin to being transgender, or being so offensive that it should be disregarded in the cause of social justice (points I find myself agreeing with imho, still and crucially my view is backed up by multiple reliable sources), and the lead being modified to reflect how this is nothing but a controversy in most respects. The folks who started 'Gamergate' insisted their campaign was all about "ethics in video game journalism", which of course turned out to be utter bollocks. I see the pushing of "transracial" being a valid identity as no different. And most sources here agree already. --SinoDevonian (talk) 12:07, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the current lead does not adequately reflect the body of the article. We should move more references of the criticism of the topic to the lead. Might need a broader RFC for name change however. Theheezy (talk) 11:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Bouattia

After some unexplained removal and reasonable restoration, I re-removed the mention of Malia Bouattia from the Examples section. What good sources say that Bouattia is transracial, or discuss her in the context of the topic? The ones cited did not do so, with the closest being this New Statesman piece, which is not at all explicit about Bouattia being transracial, and it's written like an opinion piece. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:07, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Korla Pandit and passing while Black

I would argue Korla Pandit doesn't belong here—the three other examples of "transracial" are white people, who are in a position of greater social capital, cosplaying as minorities. Their presentation as such is rooted in stereotypes.

A Black person passing as white or another ethnicity was historically done for greater opportunity and escape (however problematic) from an identity that made them targets of racism. Korla Pandit passed as Mexican, Indian, etc to have better opportunities in life and to survive when Black people were subject to segregation, etc. I don't believe that Pandit belongs in this category of "transracial" as racial "Passing" is far more complicated and with a longer history. LA Woahman (talk) 11:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Recent article of note

This may be of some interest as a source here:

• Byler, David (July 19, 2023). "Racial identity is more fluid than you might think". The Washington Post.

Summary: Americans (especially of mixed ancestry) change their ethno-racial self-identification all the time, especially to align with their politics, and this has considerable implications for the future of the US Republican Party.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

"Race Change To Another" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Race Change To Another has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 24 § Race Change To Another until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 00:51, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

"Jewish-American" is discriminatory and othering.

"Jewish-American" is discriminatory. Making a point of a woman born to Jewish parents, but not to others who may be Christian or other religion is antiSemitic. There are groups that 'have to' identify the Jews because they are 'other'. Wikipedia shouldn't be doing this It is ok to say what religion she born into, but not ok to make a religion her ethnicity. But then minorities identity has always been who others say they are, whether or not they identify that way themselves. No Jew would say they were Jewish-American themselves. 205.217.244.171 (talk) 12:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Jews are a religion and ethnicity. Calling her Jewish American is no different from calling someone Arab-American Asian-American or African-American. 107.144.132.45 (talk) 23:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)