Talk:Transgender flag/Archive 1

Archive 1

Other transgender symbols

A number of transgender organizations use the butterfly as a symbol (tgsf.org for instance), or a variation on the yin and yang symbol (ifge.org for instance).

This symbol is also used in the TG community, but seems to be no concensus on what it is called:

Image:Gendersign.png

Dlloyd 14:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Keeping Transgender Pride flag out of “Sexual orientation flags” category in List of Flags

I just put it out of that category. This mistake is really everywhere. I put it into an “Other flags” category - for the moment.

Comment I used there was: /* Sexual orientation flags */ This is definetely wrong. Don't sort this flag under "Sexual orientation". Transgender neither implies any sexual orientation nor is it a phenomenon on that field.)

-- 84.143.136.81 14:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

The article gives two different names and two different years for the creation of the flag. Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.163.150 (talk) 09:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

At first glance the article seems to be referring to just one flag as 'the' flag. However on reading it it's clear that it's describing two separate flags. Presumably much the same situation exists here as with the Flag of the Earth: several designs, none official. This article only shows the Helms flag created in 2000 and it could do with displaying the other, since it describes it. I'm not sure how we stand with using Jennifer Pellinen's flag here, though: what seems to be her old site at Geocities says that the new site (which it links to) isn't hers..? Unless I've misread it. Does anyone know what the situation is? The new site basically says to make free with the image - but I'd want to confirm the ownership of the site and copyright status first. - Mithvetr (talk) 15:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

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The flag designed by Jennifer Pellinen can be found here: http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/FLAGS/qq-tgf.html The website where she formerly had a discussion of the flag (from which the blurb about it in the body of the article may have come) is no longer available, having been a Geocities website (Yahoo discontinued Geocities very recently). I'm not sure if she has gotten a new site or not, and I don't know how to contact her. (Unsigned) _______ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.226.132.194 (talk) 12:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The transgender flag with the purple stripes is mine. Let me quickly clear up some confusion. I did at one point own the domain name transflag.org. Once the domain expired someone else picked up. So at that point the site didn't belong to me. But if I remember right, the content on it was the content I had put up originally. Someone just copied it and reposted it. As for the copyright on the flag. It's under a creative commons attribution, share alike. So feel free to use the flag on wikipedia, or anywhere else. Given the way wikipedia works, it could be anyone writing this. Anyone have any ideas as to how I can prove that I am indeed the person who crated that flag? -- Jennifer Pellinen 67.183.187.208 (talk) 01:39, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

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Hi. I'm the "Unsigned" who gave the link to crwflags.com on 1 November 2009. I don't have a static IP address, so if anyone doubts my claim, feel free to doubt it; it doesn't matter except to assert a claim that I've been active in this discussion previously. I've decided to register at this time, in order to provide some kind of verification of any further activity at Wikipedia. I didn't previously simply because I was in a rush and didn't want to take the time to do so, but I did want to point out that the image is available somewhere, because I personally prefer it to the other TG flags, aesthetically (I may have additional reasons for preferring it, but if so, I don't recall them at this moment). Jennifer (I'm going to take the previous poster at her word that she is in fact who she says she is), the website to which I linked previously does still credit you as the originator of that flag: http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/FLAGS/qq-tgf.html It refers to it as "Jennifer Pellinen transgendered flag" and then, following a graphic representation ("image by António Martins, 01 Apr 2005"), reads as follows: "I have created a design for a Transgender flag info on the flag and graphics for it can be found at my website. Jennifer Pellinen, 20 Jul 02" As for the transflag.org site, there appears to be no attribution whatsoever to any person. On one page of the site (http://www.transflag.org/info.html), the following text appears: "I came up with the idea for the transgender flag a few years ago. At the time I did not know of any other flag designs. The design was created for TG pride. another reson I made the flag is that most cross dressers are not gay. If they use the rainbow flag people will think they are gay. The colors on the flag are from top to bottom. Pink, light purple, medium purple, dark purple, and blue. The pink and the blue represent male and female. The 3 purple stripes represent the diversity of the TG community as well as genders other than male and female. The flag is public domain. There are no copyrights on it. All I ask is that you not take credit for my work. I hope to see it a pride parades. Feel free to turn it into flags, stickers, pins, patches etc. You can also use the graphics on my site. Or you can make your own. Feel free to alter my graphics. The one I usually work form is the plain flag. Every other queer group has a flag and now so do we. If you put the flag on your site I would appreciate a link so people can find out about the flag. If you put the flag on your site and a link back to this site I can put a link to your site here." If you want to establish your claim to having created the flag in question, perhaps you could contact the company with whom you registered the transflag.org domain name. They would probably still have records. Or perhaps you have a copy of the domain name registration yourself? In either case, you could then scan it and upload it to photobucket, and then add the direct link to the image here, which would at least supply some evidence that you are in fact Jennifer Pellinen and can therefore extend permission for use of the image by stating that it is under a creative commons attribution. --- Mystery, a mystery (talk) 08:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Jennifer Pellinen's Flag

I revisited this article because I saw only Ms. Pellinen's design at my local Pride event, in Southern England. It's nice to see this alternative to the blue-pink-white-pink-blue mentioned, but it's nestled inside a poorly-framed quote. I'd love to be so bold as to help clear that up, but I'm not sure where the citations and such stand in this article. Instead may I ask that a sub-heading of 'alternative designs', or something along those lines, be considered? It should help clear credits and citations up as well as directing those, like me, who've wrapped other designs around themselves at Pride. ;) --80.229.83.66 (talk) 18:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

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Having read the above commentary and suggestion, I've taken the liberty of reversing the paragraphs on "other symbols" and Jennifer Pellinen's design, and separating both into sections, distinguishing them from the main section. This will, I hope, clear up any misunderstandings related to the quote from Ms. Pellinen due to the removal of the image of her flag. It would be nice, though, if the copyright status of that design could be cleared up, so that it could again be added to the article. Mystery, a mystery (talk) 22:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Article does not indicate notability

I proposed that this article should be deleted for lack of proof of notability, but the result of the discussion was no consensus. My complaint is still unanswered, so I am copying my text to here. There is more text in the original discussion. Blue Rasberry (talk) 06:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment I dispute that Anarchangel's Telegraph source is supporting evidence for WP:N. The source describes a place which critics are saying flys "logos on bedsheets" and the article is about whether it is okay to fly flags with little recognition, and not a review of the transgender flag which is mentioned among these.

The CBS source shows a picture of the flag but says nothing about it. I would guess that they got their public domain picture from Wikipedia, because not many other sites distribute these things with clear legal licensing.

The glbtq.com source seems to not pass WP:RS and even if it did, the text there seems copied from a mix of Wikipedia and the flag creator's self-published blog about the flag.

Finally Autumn Sandeen's article comes from a reliable source and she herself may be notable, but this is irrelevant as it only proves the existence of the flag and not that the flag has a history which meets WP:N. The flag is a product and I do not doubt that it exists and that some consumers are using it, but WP requires verifiable evidence of notability and the flag's use by a single activist or a even a few activists is not sufficient to meet notability criteria. I would suggest that if this flag is being used by a number of organizations then it is notable. Otherwise, keeping the flag here is only serving to advertise it to people like those who are being cited in some of these sources. I still say delete for lack of indication of notability. Blue Rasberry (talk) 04:49, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Intersex is incorrectly implied to be a subgroup of transgender

Intersex (as it is correctly termed -not intersexuality) is a natural variation in sex anatomy and is not a subgroup of transexuality or transgender. Intersex is about physical variation in sex, not gender and does not imply transformation but rather being born with ccharacteristics that are not exclusively male or female. I am a representative of Organisation Intersex International and I would like to edit this subheading "Transgender flags, both the Transgender Pride flag and the Intersexual Pride flag are symbols of transgender pride and diversity andtransgender rights " to remove reference to "intersexual" flag. The flag listed as "intersexual" is not familiar to intersex groups (all refs in the article are trans)so I have removed it and its discriptor. If this working group wishes to engage with intersex issues the acronym used should include an I on the end (GLBTI or if you prefer LGBTI) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkleshy (talk • contribs) 17:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC) Sparkleshy (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

MTF and FTM alternate versions?

The transgender flag actually has two different versions, one for people who are biologically male and identifies female (pictured in article), and one for people who are biologically female and identifies male (pink, blue, white, blue, pink stripe sequence). Shouldn't both me included? 173.172.42.44 (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed major edit

I have written a proposed major edit to this article. It can be vowed on my sandbox. If folks think it is ok, or I do not get any comments by Sunday, I will be updating this article to my new version. The reason for creating this new major edit of this article is to more clearly sate that unlike within the wider LGBT community their is no one flag adopted by transgender folks and their communities worldwide. And to include mention of the major flags used by transgender and their varying communities. In light of this edit I suggest renaming this article to something along the lines of Transgender flags. --Devin Murphy (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Michelle Lindsay's Trans Flag design

§ Trans Flag describes Michelle Lindsay's design but has no illustration. I've split the section into two paragraphs, separating the design of the flag from its first uses, and added a reference to the first paragraph pointing to an article about transgender flags and including illustrations.

I can't find one that I'm sure is OK to upload here, but I've linked the phrase "Trans Flag" in the first sentence directly to the illustration of this flag in that article.

Please {{Ping}} me to discuss. --Thnidu (talk) 05:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

ADT description

the ADT community is actually just a group of people that "Represent an online community of transgender individuals who believe that you need dysphoria to be transgender." Everything else is their opinion. I feel the description should be changed. Coleisttct (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Reorganizing article

This article needs to be re-arranged for clarity. The Monica Helms design is the most widely used and recognized, so should have a separate section at the top. Information on where it has been raised can be consolidated. Alternative flags should be in one section- not divided over two. Maybe some gender flags can also be included at the end. I would be happy to start the process, but want to wait a second in case anyone has other ideas. Lastchapter (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

This article is due for a full rewrite, you're right. Gally r (talk) 15:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

New POC flag

In 2020, this flag (https://www.them.us/story/ipride-flag-redesign-black-brown-trans-pride-stripes) became more prominent and I think it should be shown here.Gagaluv1 (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe as a see also-- that's the Unity flag and it is more than just a trans flag. 2601:348:202:6F70:F1F6:298B:CFBC:A5D5 (talk) 06:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

THE (definite article): undue emphasis

Given that there are several transgender flags in use, is it correct to refer to the Helms flag as "the" transgender flag?

Similarly, that flag appears twice at the beginning of the article: in the infobox and in the paragraph describing it. I propose to remove the infobox since it no longer fully describes the article. Any information in it can be transferred to the paragraph describing the Helms flag.

The Helms flag can still be described as the first flag or the most common flag, as I have suggested by inserting the second word of the first paragraph.

I will leave this proposal here for a week to collect comments. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 02:57, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Global Genders

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2023 and 5 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Archyboi (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Archyboi (talk) 21:21, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

"Most prominent" flag

Firstly, the link (7) doesn't work. The statement should be qualified as being 10 years old. I found an article under that title but there is no content: https://mashable.com/archive/lgbt-pride-symbols. So, at the moment, this is an unsupported claim.

Does anyone have a reliable source? Humpster (talk) 05:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Opening any search engine and searching for Transgender flag will show that the helms design has become synonymous with the term trans flag, such as this article from last year, or this one by the Smithsonian from 2022 or this resource page by the human rights campaign. Raladic (talk) 06:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:MikutoH

 – --MikutoH ^talk! 00:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing to transgender flag, MikutoH (talk · contribs). I removed the info box for the Helms flag six months ago because it didn't convey any information which wasn't in the text. I didn't revert your May 7 good-faith edit because I believe reversion is overused as a blunt instrument. (To me, reversion is an overreactive act verging on aggression.) It would be better if edits could be flagged as "under discussion"and force both sides to state their position.

As you observed, the status of the Helms flag is now in dispute. Simply put, my opinion is that Wikipedia should not prefer any single transgender flag design. I have been editing the article in this vein for a long time, almost in isolation. Now, there has been an objection.

I am writing a summary of the different opinions and hope to post it in a few days. So please hold any edits until the end of the week.

Humphrey Tribble Humpster (talk) 23:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Humphrey Tribble I perceive that that could apply to the disability flag, in which the userbox uses a flag that has institutional recognitions but the other flag is widely used as well, sometimes even more than the one that the article considers the main flag. However, I also think this is a false equivalence, because the Helms' flag is strongerly considered the trans flag nowadays, it has even an emoji recognized in most places online. --MikutoH ^talk! 23:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a good example for comparison. Thank you. Humpster (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no dispute over the helms design being synonymous with the transgender flag.

It even was adopted as the design into the standard emoji repository of every major device. Several years ago.

Anyone trying to say anything contrary to that is trying to push a WP:FRINGE viewpoint. I’ve searched online, but unequivocally all WP:RS cite the Helms design as the de-facto design for the transgender flag and only cursory list they some alternative designs exist, such as this article here, but that’s it.

I have expanded the article to that effect now and added those sources. Raladic (talk) 00:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Google result issue

Hi, I just noticed that when this page comes up in a Google search (e.g. searching for 'trans flag') the result seems to pick a flag from the page at random. I'm not sure how to fix this, but I think having the top result display the most common flag would be best. 95.146.60.241 (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but I wonder whether moving the standard flag above the templates might help Google to recognise it as the main/lede image? DanielRigal (talk) 21:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I think this probably a google issue rather than a wikipedia issue. I'm not an expert but I believe there are many factors determining what google serves up. Wikipedia might be anonymous but GOOGLE KNOWS WHO YOU ARE !

Those who want full information can read the article. Those who just want an overview can just read the introduction. So what google shows first is irrelevant. 2001:569:BE99:EA00:ADA4:2B14:C66D:6FE4 (talk) 03:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I am opposed to doing anything on this page for the purpose of influencing how Google (or any other indexer or external website) organizes their affairs. There is no Wikipedia policy or guideline that would remotely call for doing such a thing. Any change to this article should be only to improve *our* article and based strictly on *our* P&G. Mathglot (talk) 05:09, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I think I figured out why this happened. A user decided to delete the infobox in November last year here and most search engines use the infobox image for deciding which one to show.

The infobox has since been restored and it looks like the main flag that people consider the Transgender flag now shows up with the result. Raladic (talk) 20:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)