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Controversial page move

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Consensus is required for page moves. The explanation given is unconvincing. This not the English Wikipedia any more than it is the American Wikipedia. It is the English language Wikipedia. English is one of the official languages of the EU and the most common second language of citizens.

Reasons to revert to status quo ante:

  • E comes before U in alphabetical order
  • The EU has the larger economy and population.

Discuss. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:10, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking pretty much the same thing. UK does not have a monopoly on the English language. – Kaihsu (talk) 09:44, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree here as well and will change to the last stable version. Please do not change back without a proper process... L.tak (talk) 12:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For context, see Wikipedia:Moving a page, but in a nutshell: "if a move could reasonably be questioned, consult first". The move could still happen but it needs a broad consensus first. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:12, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • The OP does not explain which title change they object to. Reviewing the history of the article, I find we have had:
  1. United Kingdom - European Union Free Trade Agreement
  2. United Kingdom - European Union free trade agreement
  3. European Union–United Kingdom free trade agreement
  4. UK - EU Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement (CFTA)
  5. UK - EU Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement
  6. EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement
  7. UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement
  8. EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement
  9. EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement
Now that we actually have an agreement, I reckon we should follow its published title, abbreviating "Trade and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community, of the one part, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, of the other part" to
Trade and Cooperation Agreement between the EU, Euratom and the UK
For comparison, note that the similar Brexit withdrawal agreement has not had any title changes!
Andrew🐉(talk) 09:14, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please consult here before making a move. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Davidson, which part of "Please consult here before making a move." did you not understand? You would probably have had no difficulty securing consensus for your latest move had you bothered to ask. If you go on with this high-handed approach, it is only a matter of time before you will be cited at WP:ANI. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:44, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I said the above only after the “Euratom” move. Kaihsu (talk) 11:58, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

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I propose moving it back to EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. – Kaihsu (talk) 08:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The other 4 language versions of this article have names corresponding to this. – Kaihsu (talk) 17:53, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal: Brexit trade deal

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  • The page has been moved again by Anthony Appleyard while we are still discussing it. As detailed above, the now current title of EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement is not stable. It is neither the official, formal title of the agreement, nor is it the common name. Judging from mainstream news sources such as the BBC and NYT, the most common name is Brexit trade deal. As this has the same format as the existing and stable Brexit withdrawal agreement, we should follow that precedent. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Areas to be covered by the agreement" needs to be nuked and rewritten as soon as we have an RS.

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The BBC has the click bait but no real analysis, at At first look, full post-Brexit text goes beyond a 'Canada-style' deal, though there is a bit more at Brexit deal: What is in it?. I'm not sure that there is enough yet for the kind of 'root and branch" rewrite needed, but someone else might fancy making a first cut? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:47, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What about this from Graun? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/from-tariffs-to-visas-heres-whats-in-the-brexit-deal Kaihsu (talk) 14:05, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That was another one that I considered just a superficial skim because they didn't have access to the detail (or the time to study it?) either. It seems to me that we have to let it marinate for a few days longer. WP:NOTNEWS. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:13, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sources of information

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– Kaihsu (talk) 10:53, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Commission's "benefits" table

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I've done the Commission's benefits checklist (see EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns) as a wikitable but I don't think we can use it until HMG published its counterpart:

EU-UK RELATIONS: Big changes compared to benefits of EU membership
Facility EU-UK
Trade and
Cooperation
Agreement		 EU
member
state
FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE
Removal of border checks ☒N checkY
Pet passports ☒N checkY
Visa-free travel (90 days in a 180-day period) checkY checkY
Visa-free travel (beyond 90 days) ☒N checkY
Right to work, study, live in another EU country checkY
Removal of roaming charges ☒N checkY
TRADE IN GOODS
Frictionless trade ☒N checkY
Zero tariffs or quotas checkY checkY
Zero customs formalities checkY
Zero SPS checks ☒N[a] checkY
Zero rules of origin procedures checkY
Fisheries agreement checkY
Benefit from the EU’s international agreements ☒N checkY
TRADE IN SERVICES
Financial services passport ☒N checkY
Easy recognition of professional qualifications ☒N checkY
AIR TRANSPORT
Single aviation area, full freedoms ☒N checkY
Bilateral 5th freedoms for extra-EU air cargo checkY
ROAD TRANSPORT
Single internal transport market for hauliers ☒N checkY
Cross-trade operations checkY
ENERGY
Single internal energy market ☒N checkY
Energy trading platforms checkY
EU PROGRAMMES
Access to Erasmus ☒N[a] checkY
Access to NextGenerationEU, SURE ☒N checkY
Galileo encrypted military signal ☒N checkY
Access to Horizon Europe checkY

: subject to specific conditions related to EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

  1. ^ a b except Northern Ireland

The copyright status is unclear? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Their copyright notice is here, with CC-by-4.0: https://ec.europa.eu/info/legal-notice_en#copyright-notice – Kaihsu (talk) 18:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The EU's table is neither reliable nor independent. For example, consider the first item "Removal of border checks" which the EU claims is a green tick. But the UK has always had checks on travellers at its ports and airports linking with the EU. And recently France closed its border with the UK. That was fairly typical of what's been happening during the pandemic -- even in the Schengen area, there have been closed borders. And, before that, countries were erecting fences at their frontiers to keep out migrants, refugees and wild boar. So, it's not so simple. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:51, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Another one that raised an eyebrow is "Removal of roaming charges" - none of the networks have said they will re-introduce them. 2.25.230.114 (talk) 13:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously though

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Given that the article is addressed not only to native English speakers but also to persons within the EU jurisdiction (as EU citizens or otherwise) whose lingua franca, funnily enough, is English, why designate as "scare quotes", [1] any more than the npov quote marks for the full title? Who would be scared? - someone affected in the jurisdiction of one of the two parties (UK or EU), distrustful 'Remainers' or distrustful 'Brexiteers'? - given also that the source is fully referenced, and that EU trustworthiness is vouched by the UK's signature to the Agreement, the npov would be that possible (uncontradicted) ambiguity of this kind is in itself part of the 'history' and current 'context'. Qexigator (talk) 12:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

because the phrase "protecting European interests" is a Commission statement: to say it without the quote marks implies wikivoice and thus editor opinionising, which we don't do. [well, shouldn't]. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my point: the quoted words should be in (npov) quote marks which you added. Qexigator (talk) 15:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of EU-UK Partnership Council into EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

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The Partnership Council stems from the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. The Council is not notable enough a subject to warrant a separate article. Conceptually it would fit, and could easily be handled, within the article on the Agreement. DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:26, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose The body is new and so there's not much to say yet but there doesn't seem to be any benefit in merging it. In the fullness of time, there will be plenty of detail including its:
  1. membership
  2. meetings
  3. major decisions
  4. secretariat
We might as well start as we mean to go on, rather than cluttering up this article about the agreement. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:59, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Out of academic curiosity, would you please tell about the ECJ intervention in similar situations? Thanks. – Kaihsu (talk) 16:55, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do not remember. In the back of my mind: some kind of international agreement concluded by the European Commission making reference to an arbitration body; the Court out of the blue and without prompting from any party stated that it had jurisdiction and that the Commission could not just sign away these powers. As long as I can remember, the Commission did not contradicte the Court.--Carrasco (talk) 20:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You may be thinking about the relationship between the European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights? By the way, I have been reading Article 218 TFEU this morning. – Kaihsu (talk) 05:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No: something commercial, nothing to do with human rights. Similar to Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA), but I do not think it was this one as the opinion of the Court in CETA was at the request of a Member State.--Carrasco (talk) 14:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Carrasco: Good hint; thanks. So it is not this one: Opinion 1/17 request by Belgium on CETA – Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) — Establishment of a Tribunal and an Appellate Tribunal. I struggle to understand how the Court can say something like that out of its own initiative. – Kaihsu (talk) 19:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Court is very careful in guarding its jurisdiction. The case CETA and Belgium was a big relief as otherwise it would have blocked CETA and similar treaties. On the other hand, the Court sometimes oversteps its mandate. I have in an oral view and when the sentence came out I was surprised.--Carrasco (talk) 11:07, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For information, we do have a short article on the EEA Joint Committee. – Kaihsu (talk) 19:18, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Your Crystal tag is fully correct: TCA has not been ratified by all the parties, hence everything is in the air. The Partnership Council is of very different nature to the Swiss one as this is the first time that a Member States leaves the EU, and in addition is a big one.--Carrasco (talk) 13:27, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • support merge

It is small enough to add now to the article. If it evolves (and we don't know: this is a big TCA and it will also govern other EU-UK agreements, but... the EU-Ukraine committee is -despite a controversial decision on chicken- still not covered, as are most of these committees) it is easy to make it into a separate article. But I strongly suggest we adopt this "start as paragraph, farm out if too big" approach, to keep the editing centred. – User:L.tak

The Partnership Council will develop (procedures, secretariat, membership, etc) into the central body covering the EU-UK relations. It is very different to any other bodies covering agreements with third countries, event perhaps it will be more central than the EFTA_Court. The UK is very large economically and politically, very near geographically and it is the first ex-EU Member State. Obviously, if the TCA is not ratified, we will have to rewrite many Wikipedia articles. --Carrasco (talk) 11:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merger for now. The council is an instutional outgrowth of the agreement and has for now no significance beyond it. If it gains more significance, as refleted in reliable sources, a spinof subarticle can be recreated, see WP:SS. Sandstein 14:37, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A Partnership Council is hereby established. (TCA - page 10). The Partnership Council will be the body driving the EU-UK relations with power to adopt decisions amending this Agreement (page 11), with its own secretariat, co-chairs, memberships, committees, staff, etc. One could view the Partnership Council as the TCA. If the TCA is not is ratified, it will be a case like the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe and a few Wikipedia articles will have to be rewritten :-) --Carrasco (talk) 15:18, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Carrasco, that's not how reliable sources write about it, and we follow them. Look at current news reports: they talk a lot about "the deal" and what's in it, and very little if at all about the partnership council (which in any case only serves to carry out political decisions made at the ministerial / Commission level, not to take on a political role of its own). Sandstein 15:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The only reliable source is the unratified TCA that has been agreed between the negotiators mandated by the EU and UK governments. News reports are not reliables and often report on secondary aspects that make good looking news.--Carrasco (talk) 17:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Carrasco, you misunderstand our sourcing policies. The TCA is a primary source, and news reports are secondary sources. Our policies absolutely require us to rely on reliable secondary sources in preference to primary sources. Please read WP:PSTS, it is a very important policy. Sandstein 13:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sandstein: it is unnecessary to quote secondary sources as the topic's notability is well established: thousands of (mostly unreliable) publications, press and others. Hence, the recommendation on following the primary source for accuracy: no analysis. I am aware of our sourcing policies.--Carrasco (talk) 15:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with EU-UK Partnership Council

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Merge

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The Partnership Council warrants a separated article as this body will be central to the EU-UK relations. As time goes by, Partnership Council will gain more prominance.

Hence, having a readily source to help avoid errors such as in the press where it is wrongly called the "Joint Partnership Council". This is with the tradition of having separated articles such as for the Treaty of the European Union and the European Court of Justice.

Further work

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True, the Partnership Council article needs further work from primary sources: EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) as the press in often wrong. Going through this and related documents will take time.

Citations

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The Partnership Council articled is fully referenced. The primary source TCA, is included pointing to the relevant part: "Title III: Institutional Framework, article INST.1: Partnership Council".

Predictions, speculative material

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It clearly indicated that the TCA is unratified. As the TCA progresses, the article will evolve.

Name

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The name is Partnership Council (see "Title III: Institutional Framework, article INST.1: Partnership Council") though it should be referred EU-UK Partnership Council.

--Carrasco (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional application

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The leading paragraphs should make it clear what “provisional application” means: that the treaty will apply provisionally before ratification. The edits since yesterday have gone in the opposite direction. This draft treaty has not been signed. – Kaihsu (talk) 12:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We should not waste much energy on this issue as we'll find out soon enough if there will be a problem getting this ratified. The coverage so far indicates that it will go through the parliaments without much trouble. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:34, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on what you read. Yes, Westminster is being railroaded to ratify it without reading it, today's Observer suggests that not all are too happy with that. The European Council has been kept in the loop along the way, with regular checking of any change in the negotiation brief. So unless Poland and/or Hungary decide to use it for leverage (like Poland tried to do with the budget), that should go through too. The wild card is the European Parliament. I'm not clear to what extent if any national parliaments have to be consulted (as they did with the Canada CETA, which took a l o n g time. The show ain't over till the fat lady sings. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:18, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that the UK parliament will meet to consider this in just two days and the new year starts just two days after that. We will then have a de facto position pending further formalities. Documenting the current provisional situation in advance is therefore a waste of time because it won't last long. We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and so should aim for stable, historic coverage, not a live, day-by-day feed. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:17, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree completely with the sentiment per WP:NOTNEWS but if you seriously believe that the provisional operation will last no more than a week or two, you haven't read about the EU-Canada FTA. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:01, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Negotiators

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There is a bit of an edit war going on over the negotiators= item in the infobox. We need to discuss. Pinging @EddieHugh:, @5.151.181.219:

  • On the face of it, it seems obvious to me that it is correct to say that the lead negotiators were Barnier and Frost. It is true that they (a) the brought in additional specialists and (b) referred back to their principals (von der Leyen and Johnson) who exchanged views and gave additional steers - as is customary in difficult negotiations. So, IMO, we should have the negotiators= option and it should say Barnier and Frost. But let's see the argument against, please? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
One person changing something and another changing it back isn't an edit war (repetition is required for it to be that). To me, it's simplistic to reduce months of negotiations involving 28 countries to just 2 people. But I'm content to leave it as it is now if that's what others want. EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I assume there were also notable senior civil servants on both sides involved. If their names can be sourced, they could be added also. Barnier and Frost are certainly the ones most associated with the agreement, though. Sandstein 18:59, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Query by EddieHugh

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Copied from my talk page:

"Fair comment on EU–UK trade history [2], but your undo also restored POV wording and incorrect spelling. Are you going to improve these? EddieHugh (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2020 (UTC)"[reply]
EddieHugh, I've fixed the UK spelling. Could you identify what, in your view, is non-neutral wording in my version? Sandstein 18:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Most of it is listed in my original edit summary: 'replacing "lose", "but", "no longer", "notably", "is now free" etc'. EddieHugh (talk) 19:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
EddieHugh, I'm not sure why you think these terms are not neutral. They reflect a change of status (a loss of mutual market access mostly), but without qualifying this as a good or bad thing. "But" is meant to help readers distinguish between what stays the same and what changes. The "notably" in "notably with respect to domestic flights or flights connecting to other countries" indicates that this is the most commercially important aspect of aviation market access affected by the change in status, also without qualification. Sandstein 19:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are more neutral terms than "lose", surely. If the losing is stated as being mutual then it could be seen to be neutral (but the wording could still be improved: it all implies negativity, which is POV, see WP:IMPARTIAL). You also use "but" in a way that implies loss (perhaps unintentionally, but(!) you do) – there are more neutral ways of highlighting contrast/change. "is now free to" could be objected to on two grounds: condescension to the UK and rudeness to the EU. "notably" is listed at MOS:EDITORIAL as one to avoid; again, we can find a better way of wording this. So, your word choices don't directly say 'this is a good or bad thing', but in several instances they do imply that (and perhaps they are good/bad things, but we should leave that interpretation/view-forming to the reader, not lead the reader in a particular direction). EddieHugh (talk) 19:22, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think, Sandstein, now that I've explained a bit more? EddieHugh (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
EddieHugh, sorry for the late reply and thanks for the ping. I see your point but can't agree that all of the wording you object to is not neutral. I don't object to striking "notably", but it is a fact that by concluding this agreement after leaving the EU the UK loses some of the market access it previously had. (It also gains a measure of sovereignty, but that is not a matter for this article.) "Loss", here, denotes a reduction in capacity or extent, and not a defeat. I'd appreciate it if others would weigh in with their view. Sandstein 17:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Basic question: why use "loss", which could indicate a reduction in capacity or a defeat, when there are other words/phrases that have only the former meaning? EddieHugh (talk) 19:25, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
EddieHugh, for me it is clear that "lose access" means "no longer have the access that they used to", but what wording would you propose? Sandstein 19:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If we're including contrasts, then variations on your 'no longer has' is fine; otherwise, merely 'does not have'. With the proviso that where each side no longer has access to something then that fact should be stated, not 'X no longer has...'. EddieHugh (talk) 21:10, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done, although it's less concise. Sandstein 21:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Map fault

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Hi everyone. I was looking at the map set as the picture of the article (i.e. European_Union_United_Kingdom_Locator.svg), and I've noticed that, probably unintentionally, Malta has been coloured in blue while it should clearly be green, being it part of the European Union and, most importantly, since blue is not used as a colour in the map according to the legend. So I reckon this issue should be fixed by somebody who is able to do so. Thank you all in advance.--NicolaArangino (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You have good eyesight. I've raised it with the editor who uploaded the image. EddieHugh (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I wish I had ahahah, with my terrible nearsightedness and astigmatism lol. But thank you though. Glad to hear you've looked into it.--NicolaArangino (talk) 17:25, 29 December 2020 (UTC) UPDATE: Already fixed, thank you all for your promptness!--NicolaArangino (talk) 17:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I uploaded the map, and it was my error. At some point the map became admin protected though so I cannot upload a correction. I have asked, and await a response.
There is an alternative that could be used: File:United Kingdom and European Union (Red-Blue).svg Hogweard (talk) 10:19, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have now been able to fix the original. Hogweard (talk) 20:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

IP and geographical indications

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L.tak, I don't think that this change is an improvement. IP rights are not a controversial or major aspect of this agreement, and the text you wrote essentially says that nothing is to change. By contrast, geographical indications are a contentious issue because they involve whether UK companies can sell their cheese as "Parmesan" and so forth. Sandstein 20:15, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for my choices were that the Parmesan issue is an issue under the Brexit withdrawal agreement and not this one, whereas the commitments to become parties to two treaties they are not parties to, and the age of 70 years (copyright) is now a legal obligation for both (so they can not go down to 50...). Feel free to tweak a bit with this in mind, but those are the reasons to keep it in... L.tak (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but our article about the Brexit withdrawal agreement says nothing about geographical indications either, and readers will look for this in this article which is about the permanent treaty. I get that from a Wikipedia perspective IP protections are of great interest, but I doubt that they are to the average reader. I'd be more comfortable with including this if a secondary source wrote about it; do you know of any? Sandstein 20:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear: I am happy to throw the geographical indications out as not that relevant here... wikipedia readers should not come here for something that is not in the treaty ;-)) L.tak (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I know that this is your view, but mine is that geographical indications are a significant issue in trade, and we should cover somewhere what the rules about them are now after Brexit. Sandstein 20:43, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then my suggestion is to add that to the text I last added and leave the paragraph at that (it is reconfirmed in this draft agreement after all). Would that be acceptable to you? L.tak (talk) 21:11, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite; I've attempted to edit the text to make it more concise while leaving in the 70-year pma term, which I agree is of interest. But we should base our article on secondary sources, and even the lengthy UK government summary we now cite makes no mention of these other IP treaties. Sandstein 21:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, when clear enough (and stated factual) a primary source is good enought; so regarding the 2 treaties the text is quite clear I'd say (Article IP 4.2). The sentence now in is a bit problematic (the part "are to be preserved or extended"). Much of the legislation is preserved, but extended is meant with respect to the multilateral conventions named in article IP 4.1. In other words: while in the rest of those paragraphs we compare to the pre-Brexit situation, here the comparison is compared to the bare mulitlateral treaty obligations. That should then be made abundantly clear... L.tak (talk) 21:41, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The issue here is not the reliability of the primary source, it's our selection from it. We aim to give a summary of the agreement, so we need to pick and choose the few most important aspects of the 1,200 page text. And the way we should do that is to follow secondary sources, highlighting what they highlight, not setting our own priorities. Our current main sources (the two governments' summaries) do not go into any detail at all regarding IP, so neither should we. Sandstein 21:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can respect that with regards to the treaties, but... the first sentence is still too multiinterpretable to stay I'd say.... L.tak (talk) 21:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Security agreement and nuclear cooperation agreement

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These are formally separate treaties even though they were ratified together. This has not been mentioned in the article and they don’t have their own articles; should we add something here? – Kaihsu (talk) 16:21, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioning them here seems reasonable. Details of the nuclear agreement are best added to European Atomic Energy Community § Withdrawal of the United Kingdom. Wire723 (talk) 18:07, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I added something to the leading paragraphs. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:25, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

'Sealed'

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Unfortunately, {{Infobox treaty}} doesn't define what it means by "sealed" but in contract law it means that the parties have affixed their official seal, making it final. This happens after signatures, not before. So the agreement has not been sealed but merely approved in principle. It cannot be signed, let alone sealed, until the Parliaments have ratified. Which the EP won't even begin to do until the draft is translated into each of the official languages. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:18, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sealed is a vague term. Sometimes sealed is also used for exactly what you are saying: when the agreement is agreed on in principle. Good to leave it out. As for the signature etc. What in most countries happens (but UK is vague because of the Ponsonby Rule) is that signature is up to the government, and ratification can only take place after parliament has approved. Provisional application can generally only take place after signature. In this reading (and that is what the treaty box it is used), ratification is not the approval by parliament, but the deposit of the instrument of ratification after full parliamentary approval... L.tak (talk) 20:31, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a constitutional lawyer (or even a lawyer) but as I understand it, the term 'sealed' comes from attaching the Great Seal of State. The sequence is thus:

  • the principal negotiators sign: in this case, BJ and UvdL.
  • the parliaments ratify (in the UK, by passing the Bill, don't know about the EP process). This is incorrect about the UK, see Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • the Heads of State attach their seals (nowadays I suspect it is done by Royal Assent to the Bill in the UK and the President of the Council communicating its decision). I suppose the seal equivalent is to lodge the Treaty with the UN (or WTO in this case?).

Agree? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:13, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Having an expert here to clarify these matters would certainly help. Short of that, I think these terms are a bit tricky. Based on my readings and quick research, "sealed" seems to be informally used a lot and at different stages of a treaty. While "ratified" seems to be formally used anytime a party to the treaty individually ratifies it. So for any one treaty, both terms appear to be used multiple times at different stages. It gets confusing IMO. But, if nobody here objects, then lets just leave the infobox as is, with the EU Council's ratification date (April 29) under the date_sealed parameter. Cordially, History DMZ (HQ) † (wire) 09:42, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in the wikisource:Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties about sealing. Ratifying and signing, yes. I think it’s the template:infobox treaty that needs fixing: changing “sealed” to “ratified”. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:20, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would recommend adding a "date_ratified" parameter to the Template:Infobox treaty, and leaving the "date_sealed" as is, just in case. Cheers, History DMZ (HQ) † (wire) 10:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree but note the problem that the UK ratified three months ago, so maybe we need a note in the template to make clear that "date_ratified" means the date of exchange of Instruments of Ratification (bilateral treaties) or, for multilateral treaties, the date on which the minimum number of nations had deposited their Instruments with "the depository" (UN, WTO, etc). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my suggestion below. History DMZ (HQ) † (wire) 23:39, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the term 'sealed' valid in modern international law?

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Interesting that we have such an extensive template when the treaty article says nothing about ratification or sealing. The article ratification says

Ratification is a principal's approval of an act of its agent that lacked the authority to bind the principal legally. Ratification defines the international act in which a state indicates its consent to be bound to a treaty if the parties intended to show their consent by such an act. In the case of bilateral treaties, ratification is usually accomplished by exchanging the requisite instruments, and in the case of multilateral treaties, the usual procedure is for the depositary to collect the ratifications of all states, keeping all parties informed of the situation.

and says nothing about seals. (Contrary to what I said above, Ratification#United Kingdom says that the Parliament of the UK only has to be consulted – that it is the monarch who ratifies on the advice of the government – xref Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. My error, so I have stricken my claim above re the UK.)

Can anyone find a treaty article that uses the "sealed" tag? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_treaty#date_sealed_parameter. – Kaihsu (talk) 17:49, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So that parameter needs to be documented too. I will be bold and update the template documentation. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:44, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have also requested that date_ratified be added to the template. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure if that will enlighten what's happening in treaties. We generally indicate as "ratification" the deposit (or exchange) of the instrument(s) of ratification. In this case we would have 3, and the approval of the UK in that is vague (because of the Ponsonby-rule). I suggest we handle this outside the treaty box. I do agree however the "sealed" is out of place here. I have no idea what it means and only note it is used as date negotiations were concluded on wikipedia... L.tak (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A quick suggestion: In cases where a treaty has multiple ratification dates, then lets leave a hidden note next to the newly created date_ratified parameter saying "If more than one date, type 'Multiple dates' and wikilink to article section detailing all the ratification dates (if no section exists add a footnote)".
Please see also my proposal at Template talk:Infobox treaty#Date ratified.
Good day, History DMZ (HQ) † (wire) 23:10, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When and how did the UK ratify?

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We have some handwaving text that claims that the UK ratified when Parliament decided [to pass the European Union (Future Relationship) Act 2020 ]. The Ponsonby Rule (legally the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010#Treaty ratification, specifically Part 2.[1]) only requires that Parliament be consulted, that entering into treaties is a Royal Prerogative (exercised by Her Majesty's Government) and can legally be done even if Parliament doesn't approve. So the text as it stands is not correct and I have tagged as dubious.

I can't find anywhere that says how the UK actually ratifies treaties: does the concept even exist in UK law? (Maybe I need to search a bit harder, but can anyone fill the gap?) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article at UKConstitionalLaw.org, cited at Ratification#United Kingdom, agrees that Parliament does not ratify.[2] --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ PART 2: RATICATION OF TREATIES
  2. ^ A. Horne and D. Gracia, Treaty Scrutiny – A Brave New Frontier for Parliament, U.K. Const. L. Blog (18th March 2020).

@John Maynard Friedman: Maybe ask by FOI request for the text of the UK notification under Article 783(1) of the agreement? – Kaihsu (talk) 16:45, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Surely all that will say is something along the lines of "we hereby notify you [EU] that we [UK] have ratified the Agreement". Why would HMG feel any inclination, let alone obligation, to tell the EU (or Japan, for that matter) the details of its internal processes to arrive at that point? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are two different legal concepts here:

  1. At international law, when a state expresses its consent to be bound by the treaty (wikisource:Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_Treaties#Article_11_—_Means_of_expressing_consent_to_be_bound_by_a_treaty et seq.)
  2. In domestic law, what internal procedure needs to happen before such expression can be considered lawful (kinda similar to Miller I).

For the first, if we just want a “date of ratification”, the date of the letter suffices. The second can be an additional FOI question. (I am not an expert in this area.) – Kaihsu (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I guess what we really need to establish is the general principle. It is not really practical to have to send an FoI request after every treaty. It seems to me that we must be missing something obvious, which the ConstitutionalLaw.org site seems to take as read. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For many multilateral treaties, lists of ratification dates are available: e.g. [3] [4] [5]. The situation about the UK internal principles and procedure is well described in the references you listed above. By the way, it’s remarkable to recall what AG Braverman stated in her recent essay, stretching the distinction above to an extreme:

It is an established principle of international law that a state is obliged to discharge its treaty obligations in good faith. This is, and will remain, the key principle in informing the UK’s approach to international relations. However, in the difficult and highly exceptional circumstances in which we find ourselves, it is important to remember the fundamental principle of Parliamentary sovereignty. ¶ Parliament is sovereign as a matter of domestic law and can pass legislation which is in breach of the UK’s Treaty obligations. Parliament would not be acting unconstitutionally in enacting such legislation. This ‘dualist’ approach is shared by other, similar legal systems […].

— [6]

– Kaihsu (talk) 03:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Multilateral treaties are more 'fathomable' because of the system of "deposit of instruments of ratification". What I am struggling with is the process for bilateral treaties. I am still concerned that our citations for ratification_date are a bit WP:synth.
As for Braverman's statement, there is nothing special about the UK in this: any participant to a treaty can breach it legally according to national law but to do so is still illegal under international law (and forever questions the good faith of the country concerned in other and future treaties). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The ratification on the EU side also seems strange, given that the EU Parliament didn't approve it until April.[7] ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 07:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just a footnote to that: the EP vote alone didn't ratify, it needed both the EP and the Council. Broadly equivalent to Royal Assent. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Expressing the consent to be bound is not one-size-fits-all; ratification is one of several possibilities: see art. 11 VCLT. For the present agreement, art. 783(1) is the relevant provision. Kaihsu (talk) 09:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't the FOI response look nice! Kaihsu (talk) 12:18, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And note that it has the Great Seal and says "this Instrument is signed and sealed by HM Secretary of State" and dated 22 April 2021, so that is what goes in the Sealed = field of the infobox. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That may be the date the UK notification was sealed, but not necessarily when the agreement itself was sealed – if it was sealed at all. – Kaihsu (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@John Maynard Friedman: I cannot tell from the low-resolution image what seal it is, but it doesn’t look like the Great Seal of the Realm. – Kaihsu (talk) 18:00, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone please upload it to Commons/Wikisource? @Jusjih and 廣九直通車? – Kaihsu (talk) 13:46, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Now up. Kaihsu (talk) 11:26, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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