Talk:Tourkia
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Western Tourkia is not Principality of Hungary
[edit]"in medieval Greek (8th-10th centuries), the name of the Khazar Khaganate ("eastern Tourkia") and of the Principality of Hungary ("western Tourkia")" - which source connect historical name western tourkia from byznatine primary sources with a fringe theory about "principality of hungary"? --Samofi (talk) 05:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- It is just a disambiguation page. The Byzantine Constantine Porphyrogennetos mentioned Árpád "ho megas Tourkias archon" (the great prince of Tourkia).Sources are in the article.Fakirbakir (talk) 07:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Source did not say it was a Hungarian principality - its your original research. --Samofi (talk) 07:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I agree. But it was not Principality of Hungary its fringe theory and original research supported only by users Fakirbakir and Koertefa. --Samofi (talk) 08:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Principality of Hungary" is just a latter name of the entity like "Principality of Nitra".Fakirbakir (talk) 08:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- No. None sources say that Principality of Hungary is later expression of Western Tourkia. Slovakia is latter expression of Principality of Nitra? Its only in your mind my dear friend.. --Samofi (talk) 09:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Principality of Nitra" is a latter name. The name did not exist in the 9th century.Fakirbakir (talk) 09:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Around 950 the Hungarians got a bishop from the Byzantines. He was called "bishop of Tourkia".[1] Fakirbakir (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- No. None sources say that Principality of Hungary is later expression of Western Tourkia. Slovakia is latter expression of Principality of Nitra? Its only in your mind my dear friend.. --Samofi (talk) 09:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Principality of Hungary" is just a latter name of the entity like "Principality of Nitra".Fakirbakir (talk) 08:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I agree. But it was not Principality of Hungary its fringe theory and original research supported only by users Fakirbakir and Koertefa. --Samofi (talk) 08:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
About Nitra and Pribina: [2] - primary source. He was rex (king) in the place of Nitrava where priest Adalaram consecrated the church. Btw I can find a books which calls the Principality of Nitra the ancient Slovakia and they are neutral and written by experts: [3]. So we can say, he was a "rex of Nitrava" - "prince of Nitra" so it was a "Principality of Nitra": http://www.google.com/search?q=principality+of+nitra&btnG=Vyh%C4%BEad%C3%A1vanie+kn%C3%ADh&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=sk#sclient=psy-ab&hl=sk&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%22principality+of+nitra%22&pbx=1&oq=%22principality+of+nitra%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1726l3995l0l4172l2l2l0l0l0l0l142l142l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3a8d3cbea13879dd&biw=1246&bih=645 about 200 hits. About princpality of hungary only 10 hits if I dont count wikipedias feedbacks: http://www.google.com/search?q=principality+of+nitra&btnG=Vyh%C4%BEad%C3%A1vanie+kn%C3%ADh&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=sk#sclient=psy-ab&hl=sk&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%22principality+of+hungary%22&pbx=1&oq=%22principality+of+hungary%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=25840l26567l1l26674l7l5l0l0l0l2l343l637l0.2.0.1l3l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3a8d3cbea13879dd&biw=1246&bih=645 and from this 10 sources 7 speaks about "Transylvanian principality of Hungary". Its fringe theory. Western Tourkia was a polity in Pannonia (present-day Hungary) inhabited dominantly by Magyar tribes, but there is no connection with fringe theory "Principality of Hungary". It was a tribal polity - and "Duchy of Hungary" was established in 972.--Samofi (talk) 06:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
![[2]](http://www.hervardi.com/images/conversio_bagoariorum_et_carantanorum006.jpg){kind=link}
And expression "Principality of Nitra" is connected with sourced locality. "Principality of Hungary" is a nationalistic attempt to connect Magyar tribes with present-day Hungary. When it was a name "Hungary" officialy used for a Hungarian kingdom? Never... Official names were Regnum Marianum and Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen. Gaspar Heltai divided "Hungaria" into magyarorzsag, horvathorszag, sklovakorszag, totorszag, racorsag... Connection of Hungaria exclusively with Magyars is a product of the Hungarian romantic nationalism in 19th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Principality_of_Nitra). Almost each serious scholar makes difference between Hungarians and Magyars, espetialy in the period of the Kingdom of Hungary, because Hungarians were all inhabitants of the Kingdom regardless of their ethnic origin. Look to german or franche wikipedia. Only Magyars did not accept it.. In Franche: Hongrois - citizens vs. Magyar - ethnicity. German: Ungar/Magyar. Slovak and Czech Uhor/Maďar, English Hungarian/Magyar.... But it doesnt belongs here but to the Name of Hungary.. For example its more than 100 000 hits about Hungaria and connection with Hungarian kingdom - more than a term "Kingdom of Hungary" is used, so its also neologism but widely accepted by scholars. Iam sad that history of Hungarian Kingdom in Wikipedia is written only in the Magyar nationalistic point of view and its exclusivistic. History has a more interpretations so all significant theories should me mentioned. This is good book which reflects hungarian and slovak points of view (there is cited a lot of magyar and slovak scholars): http://www.martinus.sk/?uItem=109776 author is Magyar but book is written in Slovak, maybe CoolKoon would be interesting about it. --Samofi (talk) 07:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is no contemporary primary source about name of "Principality of Nitra". But this is not problem, because we can use latter names of the entities. The whole Hungarian historiography uses the expression of "Magyar Nagyfejedelemség" and according to you Hungarian Academic sources are fringle theories.....(another thing, "Magyar Nagyfejedelemség" is a grade 6 curriculum in Hungarian primary schools) I can not accept books from Matica Slovenska....Fakirbakir (talk) 10:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have not problem use the term "Magyar Nagyfejedelemség" = "Duchy of Hungary" after 970: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Magyar+Nagyfejedelems%C3%A9g%22&btnG=Vyh%C4%BEad%C3%A1vanie+kn%C3%ADh&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=sk This term is not used in the one single scholar book before 955. Term "principality of hungary" is neologism for "tribal alliance" - its same like calling "principality of nitra" - "slovak principality". Your education system at primary schools is nationalistic, if would be not than Jobbik will have support less than 5%. Btw, our education system is nationalistic too.. A both nations have a own own POV about history. Why its only 5x used term "Principality of Hungary" in the all books at google? Why its used this term 10x for Transylvania? It means the term is not steady. Do you want to argument with informations from primary school? :) LOL, no comment... About that book, its your pettiness, this books is not about different opinions or nationalistic book, its synthesis of all opinions about our common history (hungarian, slovak, german...), you can confort hungarian and slovak point of view. Matica is also a publisher, author has nothing to do with matica, he is member of slovak academy of science and ethnic hungarian. Btw do you speak Slovak? --Samofi (talk) 07:00, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting, but your original research is not true about the Hungarian Principality. Géza, Fajsz, Zoltán etc wore the same Grand Prince title. This book talks about the Hungarian Principality around 933:[4] Fakirbakir (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Age of Principality between 896 and 1000 AD" (Academic source) [5]Fakirbakir (talk) 16:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting, but your original research is not true about the Hungarian Principality. Géza, Fajsz, Zoltán etc wore the same Grand Prince title. This book talks about the Hungarian Principality around 933:[4] Fakirbakir (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have not problem use the term "Magyar Nagyfejedelemség" = "Duchy of Hungary" after 970: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Magyar+Nagyfejedelems%C3%A9g%22&btnG=Vyh%C4%BEad%C3%A1vanie+kn%C3%ADh&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=sk This term is not used in the one single scholar book before 955. Term "principality of hungary" is neologism for "tribal alliance" - its same like calling "principality of nitra" - "slovak principality". Your education system at primary schools is nationalistic, if would be not than Jobbik will have support less than 5%. Btw, our education system is nationalistic too.. A both nations have a own own POV about history. Why its only 5x used term "Principality of Hungary" in the all books at google? Why its used this term 10x for Transylvania? It means the term is not steady. Do you want to argument with informations from primary school? :) LOL, no comment... About that book, its your pettiness, this books is not about different opinions or nationalistic book, its synthesis of all opinions about our common history (hungarian, slovak, german...), you can confort hungarian and slovak point of view. Matica is also a publisher, author has nothing to do with matica, he is member of slovak academy of science and ethnic hungarian. Btw do you speak Slovak? --Samofi (talk) 07:00, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Where is the connection of this with "Principality of Hungary" or "Western Tourkia"? Is it written there something about Principality of Hungary or Western Tourkia? No.. In 933 it was only evolution of the Hungarian principality - burgeoning principality. In next lines: 2 defeats marked a shift in evolution of Hungarian principality. Next defeat was in 955. So evolution of principality was finished after 955. And its not "Principality of Hungary" but Hungarian principality. "Principality of Hungary" is a fringe therm. 1x used for a tribal alliance, 2x for a Duchy of Hungary and 7x in connection with Transylvania. Age of principality it can means principality of nitra, than principality of geza, than duchy of hungary and this all is ethnogenesis on the way to the Hungarian kingdom. But no source says that "principality of hungary" existed from 896 to 1001. --Samofi (talk) 19:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)