Talk:Touché

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Redirect to Glossary_on_fencing#Blade_Work, May 24th, 2011, see discussion.
Delete, 9 Aug 2004, see discussion.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Touché was copied or moved into Fencing with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Touché was copied or moved into Glossary on fencing with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Usage as a term in bowling?

"In bowling, toshay (French: tosh, Pronounced Too-shay) is used as an acknowledgement of a hit, called out by the fencer who is hit." Is this an error? It seems it should read fencing, especially as there is a reference to the player as a fencer later in the sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.159.10 (talk) 00:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the proposed deletion

It would be a pity to see this article die...
Touché is used so often in everyday speech that it certainly deserves a Wikipedia article. Lh'owon 08:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"You may remove this message if you improve the article, or if you otherwise object to deletion of the article for any reason." -- I think the proposed deletion was premature. As it reads now, there is little more than a dictionary definition, but surely there is a history to the word which has yet to be written. We should allow this article some time (more than a month...) to be developed before proposing to delete it. ~ Rollo44 00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, thanks. Lh'owon 23:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect

Why is there a redirect? 70.21.77.27 23:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Coz it's called Touché, not Touche

Leave article alone. It was informative. Let sleeping dogs lie.78.56.220.37 (talk) 12:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hamlet Quote

I have removed the reference to the Hamlet quote.

It also occurs (albeit in Anglicised form) in Hamlet; in the final duel, when Laertes is stuck, Osric cries "A touch! A palpable touch!"

The actual line from Hamlet is "A hit, a very palpable hit." --Ckaiserca 17:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

french

is the word actually used as a way of acknowledging a good response in everyday French conversation or only in english? .—Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.69.2.172 (talk) 07:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have never heard it used in french... other than in the use "toucher" as in to touch. --Renrenren 14:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm french, and hear it every so often so, yes, it is used in french. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.252.205.217 (talk) 14:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree, it's not used anymore to say "you have a point" even if it has still sense. Maybe it depends where you live. --82.238.227.194 (talk) 17:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

I'm very dubious of the claim listed on this page that "touché" is not of French origin, but rather comes from the Norse language spoken by the Normans prior to their acquisition of French. Touché is merely the past participle of "toucher" (Old French: Touchier), and it, like all Romance language words for touch, derives from Latin "toccare," not from any Germanic source. Some linguists have discussed the possibility of its origins in Low High German, but the Oxford English Dictionary has this to say in the entry for "touch":

"The Romanic toccare has been held, after Diez, to be from an OLG. *tokkôn, *tukken, MLG. tocken, tucken, = OHG. zocchôn, zucchen, ‘to draw or pull with force, pluck’; but a change of sense from ‘pull’ to ‘knock’ is inexplicable, and it is a more probable view that toccare was not from German, but an onomatopoeic formation of the Romanic langs. from the syllable toc imitating a knock."

Now, the OED does assent the possibility of the word having Germanic origins, but also presents us with the far more likely possibility of the Romance word being derived from simple onomatopoeia. The article makes it seem as though the origin is definitely from some Norse language, but this is certainly not the consensus among lingusts. - Sestet (talk) 21:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usage in fencing

We actually don't use the term in the sport...at least not in the US. If we DID, it would be used by one fencer to acknowledge he was hit, not by the director awarding the point...but only in a friendly bout, not at an actual tournament. If you watch the Olympic coverage from Beijing, the directors (who do everything in French, since that's the official language of the sport) say "Toosh" (not sure of the proper spelling) rather than "Toosh-ay."

Even in the US, you're far more likely to hear "Prêt? Allez." ("Ready? Go.") at a tournament than you'll ever hear "touche." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.112.208.182 (talk) 08:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's a simple difference really. "Un touche" (the spelling you're looking for) is the noun form (a touch), "Touché" is the past participle of the verb (touched). In my experience with fencing in the anglophone world, it depends on the people involved in any given match which term is used, but it does tend to learn more towards "touche" (silent E, no accent) I think. Even in English language fencing, the noun "a hit" will be used most frequently (such as in Hamlet), rather than a past participle such as "struck," "hit," or "touched." - Sestet (talk) 22:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What if the hit person is female? What if the hitter is female? What if both are female? - Are there cases when the "touché" must become "touchée" - at least in correct French? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.102.245 (talk) 10:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture?

I was surprised that this page was lacking an "In popular culture" section. Is there any reason for this? 220.253.63.93 (talk) 09:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Accent mark in 'pas de touche'?

I noticed this phrase in the article does not have the accent mark on the "e"-is this just a typo, or is that some sort of irregularity in French? The pronunciation guide for the word seems to indicate it's simply a typo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Psyko Jo (talk • contribs) 15:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

just a little clarification, some years late. In the old days of fencing, scoring was done by the honor system: a fencer was honor-bound to acknowledge a touch against them. You acknowledged a touch by saying "I was touched" in French. In French, the first person pronoun may be left out if it is clear from grammar. So: "touché" ("I am touched") is what the fencer says; "touche" (a touch) is what the referee says. "Pas de touche" has no accent, since it is not past participle.

So: it's the same word with or without the accent, but different conjugation. No accent when you (or the referee) are taking about a touch on someone else Geoffrey.landis (talk) 14:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]