Talk:Toshitsugu Takamatsu

Rambling comments from over the years

This reads as bullshido, likely written by students of bujinkan to lend some credibility to their organization. The concept of a 'ninja' school or ryu is a well known fraud to anyone inducted into a JSA, or well versed in japanese culture and history. If they would claim to be a gendai art I would have no problem with it, but this false lineage makes it 100% bullshido.

Uh...is there any documentation for any of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.52.73.254 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe not, except various Bujinkan sources. I don't think it is possible to independently verify most of the claims made by Bujinkan and its affiliates. I have added {{cleanup-verify}} in hope someone adds even the Bujinkan sources to this article. jni 13:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

How is it impossible for the man to have had both "ninja and samurai roots?" Ninja was a job, not a social caste. 128.143.218.86 23:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

What's this in response to? Keep in mind Hattori Hanzo had both "ninja and samurai roots" as well. Further, ninja was technically a job and caste as well -- view the first line of the wiki on caste, and compare to the social structure of the ninja: gennin, chunin, and jonin.68.108.104.183 18:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is terrible. It's POV, makes outrageous claims and has terrible citations. I basically don't believe 90% of it. ManicParroT (talk) 14:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm losing patience with this article. I'll give it a couple more weeks, then I'll nominate it for deletion or just cut 90% of it out. The claims sound ludicrous, and they jolly well need confirmation if they're true. ManicParroT (talk) 02:46, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I've cut out large hunks of it. People need to bring their sources if they're going to make these claims. ManicParroT (talk) 01:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel legitimize to change a single word of the article, although it is clearly "unscientifically" judged by Bujinkan detractors. This should not be a place for personal disagreements; you may use the innumerable account of unserious martial arts forums for that. I'd rather leave the article. I trust someone more legitimize than me understands that the final part (Ninjutsu lineage) ought to be removed to avoid this controversy. 2:03, 16th May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.18.88.95 (talk)

Genbukan and Tanemura

Tanemura was a student of Hatsumi before founding the Genbukan. Unless Tanemura received his menkyo kaiden from Takamatsu it would be wrong to say that Takamatsu passed down his art to Tanemura. --Rustedshuriken 22:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Genbukan does not claim that Takamatsu directly passed his art to Tanemura. Realize, however, that Takamatsu had several students, of which Hatsumi was the youngest. Tanemura studied under Hatsumi, and as I recall, he was in charge of the training curriculum when he left in 1984 after a personal conflict between him and Hatsumi reached a peak. At this time, Tanemura had been given Menkyo Kaiden in all nine schools of the Bujinkan, and he then proceeded to seek out Takamatsu's older students, such as Sato Kinbei. In this manner, he obtained the Hiden of the traditions in question, and could legitimately branch the schools; note, also, that he got certain Soke-ships from e.g. Kinbei.

If you have a look at the facts, Tanemura does posess the correct scrolls to document his lineage, and this manner of branching schools is not uncommon nor illegitimate in Japan.

All this aside, arguments about lineage is really only of interest to historians (who will find more useful information elsewhere) and people who need to "prove" the legitimacy of their chosen art by such arguments. Both Tanemura and Hatsumi have demonstrated their proficiency in practical application of the art; both are regularly consulted by law enforcement and military in an official capacity; both schools teach the same art (with different approaches); the art itself is successfully used by members of both schools on a regular basis.

For real information on the Genbukan, I guess I'd recommend www.ninpo.org, www.genbukan.org, and www.e-budo.org. The latter is a forum whose operator is also a member of the Genbukan.

However, while it may be relevant to list the Takamatsu-den traditions (Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan, in chronological order) on this page, it would not be correct to say that Tanemura had received his qualifications from Takamatsu. It is clear that he received them from his successors.

Actually, I'll go poke around the sources a bit and see if I can make some pages to cover the "X-kans" and their personalities in a bit more detail. Might as well make the insomnia work for me :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.96.218 (talk • contribs) 22:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Genbukan --Crio de la Paz (talk) 03:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Check also Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation, Volumen 2 http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=FaTfuuIlmqcC&pg=PA171&dq=Kiyoshi+Watatani+Takamatsu.&hl=es&ei=q3PMTuLOBYausQK0vIjnDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Roots and references

I have added Hatsumi sensei's book. I read much of this there.

About samurai being a social caste... well ninjutsu pratctioners were well... to be nice the counter culture martial artists. by "roots" it is not meant as caste. by "roots" it means geneology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sect 7 (talk • contribs) 10:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

According to 'Ninjutsu: History and Tradition' by Masaaki Hatsumi, he was the grandson of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, the 32nd Sōke of the Togakure-ryu. The family line seems to stretch back through at least nine further members of the Toda before him.

Given this, I would say that having 'ninja roots' would be a fair claim.

-- Sasuke Sarutobi 14:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Takamatsu's schools are claimed to be koryū. Thus, they do not fit the definition of 'Neo-ninja'. Please do not add this superfluous and judgemental link back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasuke Sarutobi (talk • contribs) 15:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Just another nag that there are references out there and there need to be more added. 60% of the problems many editors have with this entry would be cleared up as soon as scholarly references are brought to the table. Greenshinobi (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)Greenshinobi

The last WHAT?

I would change that, but I'm sort of too baffled to do so. I cannot rightly apprehend the sort of confusion of ideas that would lead to such a statement. --GenkiNeko 20:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually "Saigo no jissen ninja" that Takamatsu is referred to as. Rough translations tend to be "last 'real combat' ninja", "last ninja in practice", and "last true ninja". From "saigo" meaning "last", and "jissen" meaning "combat, real fighting".Stslavik 19:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Timeline inconsistencies

Only a year away: In 1909 he is said to be 22 (years of age); yet he is 21 in 1910... I haven't checked the rest of the list; I think a job for someone with a copy of Hatsumi-sensei's book! MonstaPro 00:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You're running intoa cultural difference.

Many Asian cultures mark a person as 1 from birth, which creates some confusion for Americans and otehrs who are used to marking people as 0 from birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.168.127.10 (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I, too, have seen two different ages for the subject, but its always 1 year off either way. I believe SineBot is right as to what the cause is. Greenshinobi (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)Greenshinobi

Vandalisim

The page has been vandalized numerous times - can it be reverted to an earlier version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Threeboy (talk • contribs) 01:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Um, someone might want to edit out the disparaging remarks about "butt herpes" and "sex training". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.45.73 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Japanese script

Done. I confirmed his kanji name by this page.[1] --Nightshadow28 12:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

there is little or no DIRECT evedance of this from any one sourse

much of what has been said in this article is from what hastumie sensi has said or HINTED about in his teachings and books. there is little known about the real takamatsu and i belive that tis article should be posted as having only one unrelible source —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.213.218 (talk) 01:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not true. There is a LOT of evidence. Over the next few weeks I will put in proper citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob.D.Biamonte (talk • contribs) 16:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Empirically denied. Many articles exist by reputable sources. For example, see extensive article in: Black Belt Magazine. June 1985. Page 20. "Takamastu: The Man Who Taought Ninjutsu to Today's Ninja Leader." Written by Ilan Gattegno, News Editor for Yedioth Ahronoth, Isreael's most popular daily news paper (at the time of the article). Greenshinobi (talk) 18:18, 4 November 2010. Andrew Adams hard back (and subsequently released in trade paper back book) Ninja: The Invisible Assasins, has been in CONSTANT PRINT SINCE 1970. C.f. Adams, Andrew (1970). "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins". Ohara Press. "."(UTC)GreenshinobiGreenshinobi (talk) 22:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The article listed in Black Belt Magazine (June 1985. Page 20. "Takamastu: The Man Who Taought Ninjutsu to Today's Ninja Leader.") was written by a Bujinkan student (Ilan Gattegno) who joined in 1974, and shortly after writing the article began teaching (see: http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/ilan-gattegno.htm). "Takamastu: The Man Who Taought Ninjutsu to Today's Ninja Leader." is by the same source. Both articles should be suspect as the author stood to directly gain from publishing them.--207.219.3.222 (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

"Ninja: The Invisible Assassins" by Andrew Adams appears to have featured Hatsumi as a primary source of information. --207.219.3.222 (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Main Topic?

I just wanted to add that the organization here could use some improvement. The article starts off with biographical info and other details, but doesn't say anything about the significance of this person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orblivion (talk • contribs) 12:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Controversy

Hi, sorry but we need to remove this section. There is not even a SINGLE source for this controversy. Where is it coming from ? Now people doesn't trust people who owns the techniques ? What's next ? Steve Jobs didn't founded Apple because I don't trust his speech or I hate Apple ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.damien (talk • contribs) 16:56, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

This page is corrupted by 58.168.96.67 multiple times, adding undocumented stuff on all ninjutsu article. If it continue, I will alert some people here... Mr.damien (talk) 09:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

File:Takamatsu bo 2.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Legend vs. Fact

It seems there is some of Takamatsu's story that is legendary and some that is fact. An effort should be made to distinguish verbal accounts and legendary accounts of clear facts and make NPOV distinctions between the two. Just a look at the Martial Arts training gives an idea that there is a lot of legend miked in with fact. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 21:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

T. Hatsumi

Please indicate exactly who T. Hatsumi is and what his relationship is to Takamatsu before re-adding extraneous quoted information from Draeger. Assuming that because this person has a similar name and therefore is Masaaki Hatsumi is WP:OR and poor logic.--Stvfetterly (talk) 13:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Commenting of several paragraphs

While tidying up the reference tagging, I've hidden (please note: not deleted entirely) several paragraphs that are either not referenced, or that don't fit themselves into the flow of the article. They are well-written enough that I can see them having a place in the article, but at present they do not tie in or establish themselves. The exception to this would be the paragraph on the Iga-ryu museum, which when reading the source doesn't seem to state that they believe Kawakami Jinichi is the sole heir to ninjutsu, only that he is a heir to ninjutsu (reference: Iga-ryu museum FAQ). — Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 17:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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