Talk:Toshiki Yui

Needs a lot of work

I started by adding some references and will add more as time allows. Then I'll add more details. Bear with me; it'll take time. Timothy Perper (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, so I started with his name. In kanji, then in hiragana, his name is 唯 登詩樹（ゆい としき). That comes out "Yui Toshiki" (because it's in the Japanese name order). However, he also used another name, which is given as 加藤雅基（かとう まさき) on the Japanese Wikipedia, where the kanji have also been given in hiragana (but not in romaji). These hiragana can be transliterated/romanized as "Katou Masaki." Here is the reference to the Japanese Wikipedia.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/唯登詩樹

Here is a second website that also identifies him as 加藤雅基:

http://www.comixo.com/chi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=481&Itemid=6

So I will include this information with a cite to the Japanese Wikipedia in the article where it gives his two names.

Now, before someone goes into a rage about "YOU CANNOT CITE WIKIPEDIA! YOU CANNOT -- " I will explain something (beyond, I mean, "Break all rules"). An automatic translator I used (Google translation) gave the transliteration of 唯登詩樹 as "Kato Yakima." It is not obvious which is correct. So we need an authoritative JAPANESE source for the proper transliteration, and the Japanese Wikipedia provides precisely such an authoritative source. It's their language and they know what it says. Hence I will cite the Japanese Wikipedia for Kato Masaki and not Kato Yakima.

Timothy Perper (talk) 22:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, that's settled. Now I will try to make some sense of the different works Yui published under both names. I'll also try to fix the references to work cited; the lists are incomplete. More soon. Timothy Perper (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

More small fixes, flagged a dead link; stuff like that. Timothy Perper (talk) 00:11, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Added several descriptive sentences about him in the lead. Since the article is too short to have a "reception" section, I included several comments in the lead quoting commentators, all clearly referenced. I also added some additional references. Timothy Perper (talk) 14:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Fixed "Kirara" in the Kato Masaki list of works. It's "Kurara" -- "Kirara" is the name of a later manga Yui did. If you don't believe me, you can see the covers on Yui's website at http://www.yui-toshiki.com/shed/cn21/index.html -- they're #7, 8, and 9. Timothy Perper (talk) 14:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Added some publication details about Kato Masaki's work. More coming. Timothy Perper (talk) 15:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Added some small fixes and repairs to the Kato list, including reorganizing them by date of Japanese publication. They were originally organized alphabetically by their romanized title, which is useless since their titles are mostly in Japanese. I'll soon start fixing the next list of titles published under the name Toshiki Yui.Timothy Perper (talk) 13:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, next problem. The list of titles by Toshiki Yui, not Kato Masaki, is drastically incomplete. It seems to be a copy of the Japanese Wikipedia entry, and I can't figure out what, if any, criteria were used to compile the list. Yui's website has several lists of his works, together with illustrations, so I don't see any reason to create a complete list here, even if I had the time to prepare it (I don't; it's a big job). So what criteria should we use? At the moment, I'm working on the idea that I'll try to list all the titles that have been translated into English (most of them by Eros Comix and Studio Proteus), e.g., Misty Girl. Maybe I'll include some others as I run into them, but it won't be systematic. Since at the moment no one else is even looking at this article, I can't ask for consensus; it's just me at the moment. Well, that's life -- I will try to list works of his that have English translations. Once again, it'll take some time. Timothy Perper (talk) 14:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Moving right along here. I transferred the longer list to a sandbox attached to my user page, where I'm editing it. Too complicated to try that here. Basically I'm adding translations and more detailed information where needed. When it's done, I'll just replace the old list with the new one. See you soon. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I put in the new list of Yui's Japanese publications. I decided to use the old list, but added a lot more information. The list is incomplete, and I'll add new items over the next few days. I added more titling information and the original publisher, and re-arranged it in order of the date of publication. Also fixed some minor glitches and mistakes. Timothy Perper (talk) 00:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I now added a list of editions of Yui's work published in English, French, and German. The primary source, cited in a footnote, was the amazon.fr website, searched for Toshiki Yui. The list is arranged by date of publication. There remain some glitches and a number of missing items in the main Japanese-language list, but I'll get to them in time. Anyone who wants to reformat the references, be my guest. The citations are to specific pages on the websites and ONLY to those pages, so be careful if you try to reformat stuff. Timothy Perper (talk) 17:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, now I'm into fixing up errors in the transliterations of the original Japanese titles. There are quite a few of them. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, OK, that's it. A critic came along and told me that I mustn't use any of the sources I used. I do not believe that this person even READ anything on the talk page, but I do not want to fight about it. Over to you, and this critic can now do some work himself rather than telling other people what to do. The appropriate and proper response would have been to say "Well, Tim, I see you've done a whole slew of work here, and that's great. Let me suggest a few improvements." But that kind of politeness, courtesy, cooperation, and good manners is not Wiki. Instead, it's all egotism and snarling bad manners. OK, I won't tilt at this windmill. See you all on some other project. Timothy Perper (talk) 19:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Now that someone removed all the references to where the titles came from, they are all Original Research. I sincerely wish people would think before they start deleting things... So I flagged them all. We're right back where we started with a list that has NO reliability whatsoever. Timothy Perper (talk) 20:43, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Your recent posts are not appropriate, and pushing the WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF line very hard. Further, I have removed your tags. The article is already tagged for needing more sources, and citation needed tags never go in a header. Further, the list of works is not even close to being WP:OR considering Yui himself has a list of works on his site[1]. Lacking a source is not the same as OR. I urge you to avoid making any more pointy tagging and uncalled for remarks because you disagree with Wikipedia's reliable source guidelines. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No, you've got that all wrong. I am saying to you and everyone else, look, just stop and think for a while. The list of titles is, at present, completely unreliable and completely unsourced. That means not verifiable. Did you actually look at the Yui website? You will not find the information you're thinking is there -- and that's because Yui does not give any romanized titles at all. Where do they come from? You need to source that, and I did in the material you removed. You have inadvertently -- and I think in good faith! -- removed the basis in verifiability that this article desperately needed (IMO). But you can do whatever you like. I did what I could to lift the article into some solidly referenced sources and won't do any more on it. Timothy Perper (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Um, sources are not necessary for romanization of titles, anymore than providing a literal translation. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No. You are confusing romanization and translation. Here's an example from the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothy Perper (talk • contribs) 21:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No, Timothy, AnmaFinotera is correct: citations are not needed for transliterations or translations unless there is some controversy about how they should be transliterated or translated. As there is none here, no sources are needed. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 21:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps not usually, Nihonjoe, but in this case they do. Here's why -- and since you read and speak Japanese well, you'll appreciate the complexity.

AnmaFinotera is confusing romanization and translation. Here's an example. One of the titles in the list is "ただいまハート混線中" in Japanese. It can be romanized as "Tadaima Haato Konsenchū" and no citation is needed. It's standard romanization. But the article now says that this phrase literally means "Congestion of the Heart." A more literal translation might be "The Crossed Wires of the Heart" -- and so the translation does need a source because it depends on who is doing it. Those are the sources that were removed in an excess of something. My sense is that AnmaFinotera acting in good faith, but has simply not pondered enough about the difficulties of translating Japanese. It is a very difficult language.

Here is another example, of "砂の神空の人", which is another title (and one that I had not yet translated). It puzzled me considerably. Then a Japanese colleague of mine explained it. She wrote

"The manga takes place in a desert where there is a lot of sand. Thus, Suna no kami means "The God of Sand." And Sora no hito, as opposed to the God, means "(The) People of the sky." This is like a couplet, and if it is written 砂の神・空の人 we can understand it easily. Since there was no punctuation between the two words, it did not make sense to you. Now, it does, doesn't it?"

Yet in another -- but inaccurate! -- translation, it might be read as "The people of the sky's sand God." When we deal with something that complicated, where the possibility of error is VERY great, we do in fact cite our sources. Otherwise it is original research meaning, in a general sense, that it's something we are inventing out of our heads.

Each one of the translations is fraught with that kind of problem. In each case, I used a translation that was supplied by a Japanese source, the Japanese Wikipedia, or the Japanese booksellers I referenced, which someone decided could all simply be thrown out. The result is that you've introduced errors, like saying that ただいまハート混線中 (Tadaima Haato Konsenchū) "literally" means "Congestion of the Heart." You need a citation for that. Otherwise it's just invention.

But I'm going to stop here, because I'm not going to do more on this article.

Timothy Perper (talk) 21:53, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

You really ought to stop giving up just because people disagree with your methods. You've done this on several articles now. As an academic, you should understand how to work with a group of people, even when those people disagree on one or more points in the discussion. The whole point of the discussion is to find a consensus and work from there. Throwing your hands up in concession doesn't help things, and removes the opportunity to improve things by implying that you aren't willing to help unless everyone else agrees to do things your way. That's not how things work here, and I suspect that's not how things work in academia, either.

Now, if you're willing to help out, we really appreciate it. We recognize that you have written several papers on the topic of anime and manga, and even had several of them published in various books (I own some of those books). That's great! We love having people with a good knowledge of the topics working here. I have gone through the article and made numerous corrections in formatting and content, including correction of translations, transliterations, and some of the Japanese which wasn't copied correctly. Please take a look at the lists now and let us know what you think. Thank you for your help. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 22:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to do with it, Nihonjoe. I can work very well with other people -- if they can mobilize a certain minimal courtesy. One sort of courtesy is to ASK before deleting and hacking up stuff that other people have done. Very few of the "editors" on Wikipedia would last three days in a job if they tried that at work: "Oh, I erased your all your computer files because I think you're wrong." People out here lose jobs for the kind of bad manners that occur everyday on Wikipedia. But as long as people can hide behind pseudonyms and refuse to take responsibility, Wiki will be a losing proposition.

For example: the list on the Yui article now translates ただいまハート混線中 = Tadaima Hāto Konsenchū as "Confusion of the Heart." Well, OK, not a bad translation. BUT -- and it is a BIG but -- there is an already existing translation of that title on the Mandarake website <http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/shop/en/item_s-15212.html>. They call it "Hearts in Congestion." The point is that when someone simply removed all the work I had done -- throwing it out without a question or even ASKING what I thought I was doing or why -- they did so in complete disdain for the work of other people, and complete disdain for the existing facts.

When I translated the titles, I checked a variety of Japanese-language websites for precisely this kind of variation, and made a major effort to select translations for which I had sources. Then along come people who simply remove it all. The implication is that they know better than I do what is involved in all these issues -- and the list now has a number of such errors. Will I fix them? No. I did that once, and it all got taken out. Why should I, or any well-trained, competent expert, bother with such vandalism? And I am using that word deliberately. If you can answer that -- and so far no one on Wikipedia ever has answered it -- then Yes, I'll help out. Otherwise, you and a few other well-intentioned people will fight a losing battle against self-proclaimed editors who want to tell other people what to do and who will seriously damage a project, even one as minor and simple as getting a list of titles right for a few books that Toshiki Yui wrote. And no, the answer is not to look them up on his website. His website does not give any romanizations or translations.

So why should I keep working on this project?

Timothy Perper (talk) 23:05, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

If you don't want to be here, then you should stop coming back. You've said over and over that you're done, yet you keep coming back. On top of that, you don't extend to others the same courtesy which you demand of them. And you are ignoring the notice on every edit page:

If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here.

There is not, has never been, and never will be a requirement to contact previous editors of a page and request permission to make edits. You do not own the articles you work on. If you have a concern about someone's edits, raise it on the talk page, but don't get mad at them for editing. You're welcome to call it vandalism if you wish, but that will just convince people that you aren't willing to work with them and that you don't value their contributions in the least. That's already the general impression you give with your "I'm a high-and-mighty academic, and you aren't worth my time" act.

As for "Hearts in Congestion", that's just a bad translation, typical of many Japanese companies. It's not even an official bad translation. Therefore, Mandarake, a store, has no more say about an English translation than anyone else. Part of translation is to convey the meaning, not just be literal. Even a literal translation shouldn't come up with "Congestion" here, anyway. The Japanese 混線中 implies "crossed wires" or "confusion", not "congestion" (which implies clogging or blockage, which is not a correct way of reading that).

At this moment, I don't see any reason you should continue working here, not that it matters as you obviously don't give a damn about what anyone else thinks. If you can't play in the sandbox without throwing sand at everyone else, you should probably get out. However, if you're willing to put down your handfuls of sand, we'll be happy to use your knowledge to improve the articles here. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 23:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

You asked me what I thought of the article at present. It's making solid progress, and I think that's just great. However, the list of titles still needs references. For example, the first item has Yui writing something called "Confusion of the Heart," but he didn't. There's a piece of fanfic called "Confusion of the Heart" by "Akuma" but not by Toshiki Yui. So the titles still need work, or, if anyone claims that Toshiki Yui did wrote "Confusion of the Heart," then a reliable reference to it is necessary. But otherwise the article is doing real well. Try googling the titles plus "Yui" to identify the problems. Timothy Perper (talk) 12:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Oops, forgot something. If you google "Yui" plus "Don't Do It, Yūko-san" (another title listed in the article) you get only this article. So someone coming along and saying, "Hey, I wonder what THAT is, I'll try googling it" won't get anything. So that also needs a reference. And so on. Timothy Perper (talk) 12:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Another point. My original translation for "Confusion of the Heart" was "Hearts in Congestion," which got thrown out. If you google "Yui" plus "Hearts in Congestion" you get

<http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/shop/ko/search.do;jsessionid=CAED2441F8539972A9BE1CBAAC2BE30B.ekizo7?action=keyword&keyword=Yui+Toshiki&dt=1274291739684>

which refers you to the Toshiki Yui manga cited by the article. IMO, you have to get these titles right. They're not up for grabs or to be invented. Timothy Perper (talk) 13:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works) appears to recommend citations for lists of works, especially when such lists are not readily available elsewhere. My understanding is that amazon.co.jp is acceptable as a source, although publishers are preferred? --Malkinann (talk) 21:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Unless his official site is missing something, it seems far more appropriate to just source it to his own site. Publishers would be secondary. Amazon.co.jp and the like would be the last resort. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:33, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

And that seems to be alright with WP:SELFPUB, in that it's not selfserving, we trust it's accurate, etc? --Malkinann (talk) 23:03, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

TP here (edit conflict, so I'll try again). May I add something, folks? Yui's own website gives only theJapanese titles and dates of his work, and does not include Japanese or foreign publishers or any other information that would help anyone find the book. Nor does it give titles in English (no reason it would; it's a Japanese website). That's why I went through the elaborate charade of listing publishers and giving English titles as they appear on the websites of various Japanese and other vendors. The Japanese Wikipedia is not much better. His website is, IMO, simply gorgeous, but that's neither here nor there. It will no help finding anything else about his work.

Now, one can argue that Wikipedia editor's job is totally finished once a reliable source has been used. I have a somewhat broader, user-based view. Wiki is, as I think we all know, used as a source of information for many purposes, and with books, videos, and games, one of those uses is to tell the reader who the publisher was. We're not advertising them; we're including an essential feature of ALL bibliographies: the publisher is necessary. But publisher names were all removed.

If Wikipedia policy is different, then I'm sorry to say that Wiki is out-of-line with all bibliographic policies I know of. Sorry if that offends you, but it is a basic principle of preparing a bibliography. You must include the publisher, the date, and the city of publication.

It is also standard in bibliographic work to include a list of sources for titles. Well, that got removed too. Now the list of works has no references and could, for all anyone knows, be completely made up. For example, who says that Yui wrote/drew under the name "Kato Misako"? I had a reference; it was removed. For another example, much of the list iscompletely made up, specifically, a number of the titles now given in English. The ONLY place you will find a mention of a Toshiki Yui book called "Enamel Sketch" is this website. As far as I can tell, that title was made up by someone here.

Folks, that is completely out-of-line. I don't care if you hate me personally -- you are not allowed to invent book titles in a bibliography. Well, that's what has been done and I won't do anymore on this article.

Yes, I know, I know -- I'm being a Big Bad Meanie. But the list is not acceptable scholarship or bibliographic practice.

Timothy Perper (talk) 23:18, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about the English titles, I suspect there is some kind of guideline - the lists of works guideline does not provide guidance in this matter. The lists of works guideline recommends including publisher, date, and the city of publication, so they should be restored. --Malkinann (talk) 23:51, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

One thing you can do with the titles -- this is standard practice in print bibliographies -- is to add "editor's translation" in parentheses after the translation. Thus: "Enamel Sketch (editor's translation)". That way no one thinks that it's a "real" = publisher's title. Timothy Perper (talk) 13:06, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Reviews for Yui's other works

Found two Manga-News reviews for It. As It is a difficult title to search for, thought I'd leave them here. --Malkinann (talk) 23:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

And for Hot Tails: AnimePRO, Sequential Tart. --Malkinann (talk) 01:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Book sources

Asked AmnaFinotera for help with book references. Cheers! --Malkinann (talk) 00:52, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Anime Encyc (I only checked the 2nd edition)

In the lengthy entry on the Cream Lemon serial, "For Visions of Europe (#20), taken from Toshiki Yui's Mermaid Junction manga, two frisky female tourists lose thier passports and money at the airport and are whisked off to an alternate Europe where passion rules." and further on the same page, in discussing the series' release on home media, it notes that there were several artist oriented releases "collecting the 'best' works from To Moriyama, Kei Amaki, and Toshiki Yui." In the entry on Kirara, it notes that the video was based on a 1993 Young Jump manga by Yui.

Manga The Complete Guide (does not have a proper index, so checked the listed titles and the intro to the adult section)

In Artist Index, lists his official website and three works, all marked adult: Misty Girl Extreme (1991), Hot Tails (1993), and Wingding Orgy (2001) In Adult secion intro, has a paragraph on Futanari (she-males), calls Yui's Hot Tails the best known exponent of this genre in the West.

In entry for Hot Tails, "Toshiki Yui has been an adult manga king for a long time and it's clear why: no one else comes close to his mix of sex, humor, and bizarre imagination. He simply lets his id run wild, and we stories that are as surreal as they are sexual: lovers conjured from the blood of a lust-induced nosebleed; aliens from teh future who kidnap girls for sex in their dreams; flying fantasy worlds populated with dragons, wizards, dinosaur cops, and lecherous gnomes. His art is still a bit unpolished and busy in these older stories, but his style in undeniable. The art is gorgeous, the ladies are sexy, and the premises too bizarre not to enjoy." (rated four stars).

In entry for Misty Girl Extreme, "While Toshiki Yui's art is still unpolished and somewhat busy in this early work, his stories still have an energy and inventiveness beyond the simple sex...the artist's distinctive style shines through and the sex is actually much more suggestive than explicit, making it all the more powerful. (also 4 stars). In the entry on Wingding Orgy, notes that it was renamed to Wingding Orgy: Hot Tails Extreme in the English release due to the "success of Yui's previous manga Hot Tails, despite their having no relation. (unrated)

References