Talk:Tornado outbreak of April 12, 1945

Requested move 1 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 23:10, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

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Tornado outbreak of April 1945 → Tornado outbreak of April 12, 1945 – Wikipedia normally uses dates in tornado outbreak articles, even when there is only one notable one per month (Tornado outbreak of December 12-15, 2022, for example.) 69.123.50.215 (talk) 22:12, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NWS Norman F5 rating

@Master of Time: Per NWS Norman's Top Ten Deadliest Oklahoma Tornadoes (1882-Present) webpage, the tornado is marked as F5 in the "F-Scale" column. To further note, "Grazulis" is only mentioned for the 1947 Woodward tornado (". There is no further attributions to Grazulis on the webpage. Your argument is entirely original research. Also to note, I had exactly what you think is present in the Tornado outbreak of February 12, 1945 article. However, during the GAN, the GA reviewer actually wanted me to note NWS rated those tornadoes as well. On that list, Grazulis is not even mentioned whatsoever. That article btw is almost finished through an FAC, with already two editors in support of promiting it to FA status. We can always get a third-opinion at WP:3O if you still think it should be removed. However, there is now Wikipedia precedent on keeping it.

So, unless you can prove that NWS Norman received that specific F5 rating from Grazulis (despite Grazulis not mentioned regarding the tornado), then there is nothing we can do. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, just noting that I see where you are coming from. But, editors cannot dictate the content, even if we believe or know something to be true. That is why Tornadoes of 2022 has factually inaccurate information, which is known to be factual inaccurate, but a community consensus decided it must remain / not be "corrected". Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth (that Tornadoes of 2022 example at WP:VNTIA) is the reasoning behind it. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter and Master of Time: Oi, could you resolve this here instead of edit warring over it? WeatherWriter, if the F5 rating is based on an NWS Norman assessment, you should provide a source saying so. The cited sources here say it was an F5, but doesn't say who provided it (e.g. that it was indeed from Norman and not Grazulis or Fujita). TornadoLGS (talk) 04:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

If it is ok with you, can this be merged in the discussion I made two minutes before this? This discussion was edit conflict created. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure go ahead. It’s late and I’m a little tipsy right now so I’ll comment further tomorrow. TornadoLGS (talk) 06:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

To follow up on what I was saying last night what I'm saying is, since we don't know whether the F5 rating was an assessment of NWS Norman or if it's just them going along with a rating assigned by Grazulis or Fujita. Since we don't know which is the case, it think it would be original research to say anything on the matter. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Saying this wouldn’t be original research though: “The National Weather Service in Norman, Oklahoma noted the Antlers, Oklahoma tornado was F5 on the Fujita scale, which makes that tornado’s rating an official/unofficial rating, since it is a rating mentioned by the National Weather Service before 1950.” That statement is true, and with what happened on the February 1945 outbreak article during the GAN, the “official/unofficial” part is actually needed. The source is from NWS Norman (true). The source says F5 on the Fujita scale (true). NWS Norman is the only group authorized to officially rated tornadoes in the area of this tornado (true). That statement says all of those. I am strongly opposed to removing the source and statement entirely, since it is a fact that on an NWS Norman website, the tornado is marked as an F5. Whether they rated it or note does not change the fact that a NOAA website has it listed as an F5 tornado. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Now, strictly speaking, do we need a source to say that pre-1950 ratings are unofficial? TornadoLGS (talk) 18:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Already present. Reference 6 from NWS Norman quotes NWS saying that and reference 7 is RS media saying it. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I have been slightly iffy on the "unoffical-ness" of pre-1950 tornadoes since Grazulis mentions official records a few times in regard to pre-1950 tornadoes. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Same. (Long reply specific for TornadoLGS) It is always weird. NWS has several webpages that have pre-1950 ratings. Some cite Grazulis' books and some don't. They big thing is that NWS can't actually publish finalized information. Everything by NWS is, well technically, preliminary. Per the NOAA directives, which are like close to 1,000 pages long (I had to look it up for a project...painfully), NOAA NCEI is the only authorized branch of NOAA to publish finalized information. NCEI records only go back to 1950, hence why it is considered "unofficial" going back farther and also why NWS states "official" starts in 1950. Everything on that website is...well...unofficial, since NWS is not authorized by NOAA to actually publish official information. Really dumb, I know. There was an AMS paper back in April that I read which mentioned the insanity of the "NOAA databases". It becomes even weirder when various NOAA things link to each other...and for at least one SPC database, Wikipedia. The List of F5 and EF5 tornadoes, List of North American tornadoes and tornado outbreaks, and List of tornadoes striking downtown areas of large cities, are actually linked to by SPC on the Violent Tornado Outbreaks Webpage. Hopefully that explains partially of that weird process.

Short summary, that webpage comes from government meteorologists. That updated wording I made should satisfy the concerns we had for the "rating" of the tornado. It doesn't directly say NWS rated it anymore, just that they noted it is "F5" on the F-Scale, which is what the webpage states. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)