Talk:Torn (Ednaswap song)

Moved

I've moved this back to Torn (Ednaswap song). Ednaswap recorded the song first, so technically it's "their" song first and foremost. Not only do I think it would be misleading to retitle the article with the "Natalie Imbruglia" suffix, but it introduces POV issues by highlighting her version even though she wasn't the first to record it. I think disambiguating a song article according to whoever recorded it first is the best way of avoiding allegations of bias towards one or the other. See the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Songs#Titles_for_articles_of_songs_recorded_by_more_than_one_act. Extraordinary Machine 15:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

not only that, it is _written_ by them, what else can be said, it's theirs even if they had never recorded it. --fs 05:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

And let's be honest, the imbruglia version is cheesy and vapid. It would be a shame to see a good song remembered that way (though I get that for many people it will be). --just bein honest24.22.68.127 (talk) 01:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Torn Imbruglia Seperate page

Torn - Imbruglia needs a separate page. The vast majority of people (93%+) are being directed here for the Natalie Imbruglia cover, not the Ednaswap version (or other versions). Torn Imbruglia was a global No.1 in the late 90's. In Australia, as of 2009, "Torn" is the most played song on Australian radio over the last 25 years. In the UK, on Radio 2, it has the 22nd highest accumulated playtime of any song in the last 50 years. I can't think of another song with this level of cultural impact lacking a wiki page, not a subheading on Ednaswap.

As of 2011, 'Torn' holds the record for most played song on Australian radio since 1990, played more than 300,500 times since its 1998 release, an average of 75 times a day, based on data compiled by the Australian Performing Rights Association (APRA). P.S. Airwaves torn up by Imbruglia http://www.inthe00s.com/archive/70scinema/smf/1239660298.shtml

mshara1 05:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC).

Agreed. I understand the current format technically follows Wikipedia best practice for cover songs, but it’s ridiculous that it’s relegated to a section of a relatively unknown band’s song entry. Especially since it’s a wildly popular song. Golf99 (talk) 23:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Norwegian

I'm sure I remember that this song was promoted (in the UK at least) as if Imbruglia had written it, but that it turned out to in fact have been written and first recorded by a Norwegian (?) woman. I can even recall someone (Chris Evans when he was still any good?) fading in and out between the two to emphasise how similar the orchestration was; from memory the two versions are virtually identical. I'm fairly sure that the Norwegian artist recorded version in both English and Norwegian. This business of a Los Angeles band is entirely new to me. Silverhelm 05:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

A bit of Googling suggests that I was half right. The Norwegian artist concerned is a woman named Trine Rein, who appears to have covered the Ednaswap song. Certainly her version predates Imbruglia's, though, and as mentioned above it is extraordinarily similar. So although it might be Ednaswap's song, I'd suspect their version wasn't the "inspiration" for Imbruglia. I feel there's a story to tell here, if someone is able to research this stuff properly to turn dim recollections into verifiable fact. Silverhelm 05:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

I remember reading somewhere that Scott Cutler or Phil Thornally helped produce Imbruglia's and Rein's CDs, so I assume whichever person it was had an idea for what a "pop" version of this song should sound like. --74.34.54.216 02:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Soundtrack

Does anyone know if this song has been on any soundtracks? Also, I'm sure I heard the Imbruglia version without any of the vocal parts used in a commercial for a football show or some type of sports show or something a few years ago. Does anyone know about that?--74.34.70.107 04:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

David Armand

I think a mention of David Armand's performance of the song is worth mentioning. For many of us, that is the first time we actually listned to it.

-Robret

Diving in the Deep End?

Does anyone else think that the Diving in the Deep End section is unnecessary? It doesn't have much to do with the song and I just don't think it's a good idea to have so much extra information when it's not even about the original artist. I didn't remove it though because I could be completely off base. --66.158.103.242 01:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, what is that crap? Sounds pretty non-NPOV, not to mention completely useless. This article is about the song "Torn", not the b-side to Natalie Imbruglia's cover of "Torn". 69.155.81.39 (talk) 14:58, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I think I might remove it. If anyone has any input, please explain your point of view --Infinitegames (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, good point! --Bernardo.bb (talk) 01:34, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Meaning

Why was the section for the meaning of the song removed? It needed some cleanup from the pointless "alternate" meanings, but it's important (or at least common) to explain what the song means. Might as well, anyway..

I figured it was about rape & her boyfriend came home too late to help her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.167.21 (talk) 10:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Covers

I removed this "It was performed by Kyla Tingley on CBC's How do you Solve a Problem like Maria?." from the Covers and Versions section since it was not properly integrated into the article. If you want to add to this section, which is already very long, make sure that it is properly integrated (this was just tacked on to the end, which is a paragraph describing LIVE VERSIONS), and also important. I've never heard of this artists, this channel or the show, so I don't think it matters and it seems more like publicity for Kyla Tingley than anything. --Infinitegames —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.68.118.67 (talk) 20:40, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Factual Content

Please change the following passage:

'"Torn" is a song by the band Ednaswap from their debut album Ednaswap (1995). It was their second single from that album, after "Glow". "Torn" was written by Scott Cutler, Anne Preven, Rusty Anderson and Phil Thornalley during a demo session in 1991 before Ednaswap was formed. The lyrics were written by Preven while the guitar parts were arranged by Anderson. Thornalley produced the session. In 1997, it was covered famously by Natalie Imbruglia after having been covered by Scandinavian singers Lis Sørensen in 1993, and Trine Rein in 1996.'

My issue with this is, how can Lis Sørensen cover this in 1993 when it was first released by Ednaswap in 1995? Can Lis time travel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.159.146.98 (talk) 09:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

My take on it is that Ednaswap wrote it and probably performed with it before they put it on a record. In the meantime, Lis Sørensen got the song translated from her label and recorded it. She was first to record, but it wasn't her song originally. This is my version of events. They may or may not fit reality. It's worth investigating further. The article certainly needs clarification in this area. -- Henriok (talk) 21:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Time

According to last fm Brændt is not 5:01 but 4:37. I do not have the original album "Under stjernerne et sted" to check this. It is also worth noting that Lis S. ´s song was a danish hit and maybe someone could name the translator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.140.180 (talk) 20:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Repetition

The following is repeated in this article:

In 2012, Torn is declared as The No. 1 Best Pop Song by Q Magazine in their Q Special Edition 1001 Songs Ever. [3] Billboard ranked Torn as No. 26 Best Pop Song based only on Pop radio charts compiled between 1992-2012.

And later

In 2012, Torn is declared as The No. 1 Best Pop Song by Q Magazine in their Q Special Edition 1001 Songs Ever. [3] Billboard ranked Torn as No. 26 Best Pop Song based only on Pop radio charts compiled between 1992-2012.

Aisteco (talk) 00:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect sales performance data for Natalie Imbruglia version

Hi, I've spotted a couple of out of date facts/inaccuracies in the following paragraph:

The physical single of Imbruglia's version of the song has sold more than 4 million copies worldwide, including more than 1 million copies in the UK alone.[3] In the UK, it is the 85th biggest selling single of all time.[4] The track peaked at #2 for three weeks, being held off the top spot by Aqua's "Barbie Girl" and then dropped to #4. As a result, the song is the second biggest-selling single in history not to have topped the UK Singles Chart

According to Official Charts Company data, Torn is now only #90 in the list of UK bestsellers (although I appreciate a fact such as this will need to be updated regularly as things change).

There are actually seven singles that have sold more than Torn in the UK but not topped the chart. They are: Last Christmas by Wham, Moves Like Jagger by Maroon 5, Wonderwall by Oasis, Blue Monday by New Order, Stranger on the Shore by Mr Acker Bilk, Angels by Robbie Williams, and Love The Way You Lie by Eminem ft Rihanna. Of these, Last Christmas, Blue Monday and Stranger on the Shore have always been ahead of Torn, so it has never been higher than fourth in that particular list.

I hope this is helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.30.55.65 (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

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Written in 1991, or 1993?

According to a Phil Thornalley interview (http://www.songfacts.com/blog/interviews/phil_thornalley/), the song was written 6 years before Thornalley met Natalie Imbruglia, which would have put it maybe in mid-1991. However, in an Anne Cutler interview (http://www.harvardwood.org/blogpost/1130950/184575/January-2011--Anne-Preven-86), the song was written "on a trip to London right before they put the band together" - which makes sense since where the heck else would they have met Phil Thornalley? So, I dunno if this is something we'd like to sleuth out here on Wikipedia.... AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Filmed: 25 October 1997?

When was the music video filmed? 25 October 1997? [1][2] I added a 'when' tag [3] Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:43, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

"Most Played Song of the 90s"

You need a better source for this as the one provided does not state this. The wiki gives https://www.forbes.com/sites/markbeech/2020/04/13/pharrell-williams-happy-revealed-as-the-most-played-song-of-the-decade/#cd995af764f8

Well, that's about, as the URL suggests, about Pharrell's song in 2010s. "Torn" appears in this article exactly once - in the narrative about being in last place for the 2010s. There is no 1990s content here. Ergo I have removed the phrase "Torn is the most played song of the 1990s" - if the implication is it's still being played and therefore must be wildly successful in terms of plays - yes, I agree, but unfortunately it would necessitate original research. Please use a source that explicitly refers to the claim. --81.100.85.86 (talk) 09:22, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 11 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. The decision whether or not to split the page is an editorial one and therefore outside the scope of this close, so please feel free to pursue that route if necessary. Dekimasuよ! 03:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

---

Torn (Ednaswap song) → Brændt – I'm actually quite torn on how to handle this myself. The original, first version of this song is called "Brændt". However, one could argue that "Torn" is a different song altogether because of its English lyrics, as seen in a similar recent discussion at ¿Quién será?. Based on the way I see it, we have four options:

• Option 1: Move to "Brændt", since this is the original composition by Lis Sørensen
• Option 2: Split the article into "Brændt" and "Torn (Ednaswap song)", because both are entirely different songs lyrically
• Option 3: Do nothing; "Brændt" is not a commonly recognizable name, and we should use the more well-know English title for this page
• Option 4: Do something else; another title or proposal would work better

As I said, I am indecisive, so I'm not going to vote for an option right now. I'm curious to see what other people think about this. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 22:52, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: definitely DON'T move to "Brændt". There is precedence for English-language songs being based on songs from another country adapted with English lyrics: namely, "It's Now or Never", based on "'O sole mio", and "My Way", based on "Comme d'habitude". In both cases we have an article for the original song and an article for the English-language adaptation. If "Brændt" has enough sources to create a separate article of its own, I would suggest that's what we do here, which would lead to option 2... if not, then I would probably just leave the mention of it in this article, as it stands. This song was written by two Americans and an Englishman, so even if the first recorded version was a retitled version in Danish, I suspect it was originally written in English as "Torn" anyway. Richard3120 (talk) 02:36, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
• If we can justify a separate page for the original version then 2, otherwise 3.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Totally agree with Ortizesp. Richard3120 (talk) 15:01, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
    • @Ortizesp and Richard3120: I have encountered cases where technical cover songs have separate articles for different lyrics. One example is "Come On England", which is a reworking of "Come On Eileen"; however, another user once suggested merging the two. A more similar case to "Torn" is with "Around the World (La La La La La)", which is an almost note-for-note cover of the Russian-language song "Pesenka". I'm now leaning toward option 2 as well. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 15:51, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
      • I think the difference here is that this is probably not technically a cover version of a foreign-language song, like the cases mentioned above... this song was written by the members of Ednaswap so theirs is the original song, it just happens to be the case that before they recorded it, it was recorded by another artist with translated lyrics. We also have little evidence that the Danish version was ever notable anyway... the article says "it was a hit in Denmark", but old copies of Music & Media suggest that it never made the top 10 of the Hitlisten chart, so we have no idea how big a "hit" it really was. At the moment I can't see any sources to create an article for "Brændt", so I would leave this article as it is... "Torn" IS an Ednaswap song, and the Danish version can be mentioned here in passing. Richard3120 (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

• For all this time I thought that the Natalie Imbruglia one is a song which has not had any other versions so I was expecting that to have a page all about it. Though the Natalie Imbruglia article does say the necessary details about that being a cover. I'm inclined to vote for option 2 and agree with what msharal said back in 2013 on an above section. "Brændt" is something I never heard of before myself but I agree that was the original in line with the article. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
• Do nothing, option 3. This seems similar to the situation with Mickey (Toni Basil song): The original song is neither notable or recognizable, so it's best to acknowledge it in the article, rather than in the title. 162 etc. (talk) 22:20, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Elisabeth Gjerluff Nielsen

As writer of the lyrics in Danish, should Elisabeth Gjerluff Nielsen not be listed as a songwriter in the "Brændt" infobox? 2A00:23C8:538A:AF01:116C:40C7:2C1D:5C46 (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

2022 Article in Song Writing Magazine UK by Duncan Haskell

Article fills in a lot of missing gaps that I wasn't aware of. For example, both vesions of the song were recorded in the same house studio. Lot of info which is liklely to be deleted. Site won't last long. Hope someone could find the relevant points.

https://www.songwritingmagazine.co.uk/songs/how-i-wrote/torn-phil-thornalley

This iconic 90s pop smash went through several different versions before finding a perfect home with Australian singer Natalie Imbruglia No list of the best songs of the 1990s would be complete without Torn, the bittersweet pop smash from 1997 that helped former Neighbours actor Natalie Imbruglia leave Ramsey Street firmly behind her. So enduring is the Australian singer’s take on the track, it was the only song from the 1990s to feature in Forbes’ list of the UK’s 40 most-played songs of 2010s. That version may be unmistakeable to this day, but Torn had already been through several different lives before breaking out as the hit that made Imbruglia a worldwide superstar. Co-written by Scott Cutler, Anne Preven and Phil Thornalley (who also produced the Imbruglia version), it’s Thornalley who will be taking us through the song’s journey. A quick namedrop of some of the artists he’s worked with down the years as either producer, co-writer or musician, is a clear indication of his calibre. Bryan Adams, Thompson Twins, The Cure, Psychedelic Furs, XTC, Duran Duran, and Paul McCartney have all made the most of Thornalley’s bona fides. Still making exceptional music, he’s just released new solo album Now That I Have Your Attention. A fabulous set of of intelligent power-pop gems directly inspired by ELO, he’s clearly still at the top of his game. For now, we’re heading back in time to learn all about the creation of an iconic song…

Released: 27 October 1997 Artist: Natalie Imbruglia Label: RCA/BMG Songwriters: Scott Cutler, Anne Preven, Phil Thornalley Producer: Phil Thornalley UK chart position: 2 US chart position: 42

“Torn was written with my American friends Scott Cutler and Anne Preven in my modest home studio in West Hampstead (also where Natalie’s version was recorded five years later). Anne was making demos with a view to signing a record deal as a solo artist. Scott and I had worked together writing for Johnny Hates Jazz a year before. I wasn’t getting much work at the time but Scott trusted my chops as a writer, producer and player. “My golden days of being the rock and roll Zelig, an in-demand mixer and producer in the 80s, had faded. I had gone from producing The Cure, mixing XTC and Duran Duran, and getting Grammy nominations for big-selling Thompson Twins albums to producing cheap demos for Keith Cullen’s bands at indie label Setanta Records. “Anyhow, subsequently Scott and Anne wisely decided it made more sense to frame their music with a grunge rock sound, the sound of the early ‘90s, so they formed the band Ednaswap who recorded Torn twice with a very different sonic setting to our demo. Quite dark and threatening. Incidentally, the hit version of Natalie’s is closer to Anne’s original demo. “The song composition came together over two days. It was one of three we wrote for the week’s session, also buffing up two songs that Anne and Scott already had in hand. The first day of Torn, Scott and I were messing about with drum loops. It’s incredible to imagine that loop technology is available instantly with a plug-in now, but at the time this was cutting edge, state-of-the-art production, that involved stretching and correcting the audio file. The loop we chose never quite circled perfectly, it always sounded a bit lumpy to my ears, like it had two left feet.

“Scott played chord progressions on a warm keyboard sound and I followed on my Precision bass with a Motown Can’t Hurry Love feel, knocking a track into shape with Anne sitting at the back of the room dreaming up a melody. They are both intensely focused writers and I learned a lot from them. “In the evening, when the changes were set, Anne recorded a guide vocal with her sketched lyrics and melody. No one was jumping up and down (I write alone mostly, but still get excited when the melody and lyrics magically, through sheer hard work or even the luck of The Muse, suddenly appear to shine a path to where the song absolutely needs to go). The next morning, Anne was excited. Overnight she had re-written the lyrics and melody in her hotel room. ‘It’s called Torn,’ she stated as a fait accompli. I remember screwing my face and objecting. ‘Torn!?’ I didn’t like the title…what a genius! “We recorded Anne’s newly created magic, a great singer btw. Usually Scott and me, in this process, would make suggestions about melodic changes on the hoof. I feel Scott would have scientifically manipulated the entry to the chorus so it resolves on the major note of the scale – teasing the notes in the bars before to draw out the tension. The ear wants the melody to land on the pleasing A of F major, but is held back by singing the B flat till the last beat. I don’t think one word of Anne’s lyrics was changed. Even then, I don’t think we were high-fiving each other in the control room. No champagne. It was very workman-like. Another day; another song.

Phil Thornalley: “The melody and lyrics are always doing the heavy lifting for any song.” Photo: Neil Mackenzie-Matthews “I feel the juxtaposition of the lyrical angst with a cooler, pop sound created that magic bittersweet chemistry that’s been successful on records since Frank Sinatra, Motown and many more since. The push and pull of the music speaking at odds emotionally to the words. “Over the days of the sessions, we added guitars and Anne’s ethereal background vocals. I used to record any effects like delay and reverb straight to tape (I had a crappy two-inch tape machine that was always failing), so those background vocals would sit perfectly, creating a bright sonic halo around the chorus. I played single-note bass piano notes for more drama and bottom end on the chorus. Those overdubs gave more sense of arrival in the song, that feeling of, ‘Here we are! It’s a wonderful world up here on this plateau in beautiful chorusland,’ but the melody and lyrics are always doing the heavy lifting for any song. Productions come and go but great songs…well… “Anyway, Rusty Anderson flew over to record additional guitar parts on all our tunes. I wasn’t that confident as a guitar player then, I’d play the simple parts, but we knew he’d deliver the unexpected with his gifted, lyrical style of playing. After a week or two we had five songs ready. I was probably still trying to get the frickin’ lumpy loop to sit until we mixed the song in some downtime at a local fancy studio, Master Rock in Kilburn. “Torn was recorded by other artists before Natalie’s version exploded. Danish A&R, Poul Bruun, LOVED the song from the get-go. He had the Norwegian balladeer Trine Rein record it – a Scandinavian No 1. Another of Poul’s artist’s, Lis Sørensen, recorded the very first cover with a Danish lyric but retitled Brændt (Burnt). “Fast forward almost five years, my manager, Bill Stonebridge, who knew Natalie, put us together for a meeting with my new music publisher, Marc Fox. Marc heavily suggested we record Torn. He said these words, ‘I think this song will change your careers,’ how about that? At the time I was still scraping a living playing bass for my friend Edwyn Collins’ touring band, his song A Girl Like You was bringing him phenomenal, unexpected success. Some of my songs were beginning to be recorded by other artists but unfortunately no hits as yet. No life changers. I’d also just missed out on having a song on the Spice Girls album. “Nat and I hit it off and we were both hungry for success. Both ‘cold’ in a business sense; I was nearly out of the music business and she wasn’t nearly in it. Both seemingly out of luck but reaching for the stars. We worked hard, recording and re-recording her vocal for days, trying to find the best expression from her voice. If she sings out too much, pushes too hard, then her beautiful breathy tone is lost. We would try out phrases with added blue notes to try to capture the lyrical mood. So not a one-take wonder, a studied and contrived performance. I guess her skills as an actor helped with the patience needed to put up with my demands. “I was adding guitar parts one day then wiping them the next, looking for the perfect musical tonal combination. The last day before Nigel Godrich mixed it (he was my assistant engineer once upon a time) I decided the production sounded too perfect and re-recorded the strumming acoustic guitars and the bass guitar again, each in one take to get a more band-like feel – something looser; more artist and less machine. On my new solo album, Now That I Have Your Attention, I still use the same approach. I only stop the production when something sounds really wrong, like really awful! I don’t look for mistakes; I go with the feel. Mshara1 (talk) 09:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC)