Talk:Tony Bennett/GA1

GA Review

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Initial thoughts

I'll get on to this soon. It looks generally to me as though it will be GA without much trouble, but I'll check it out in detail shortly. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks very much for doing the review. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the wait. Some thoughts, more or less in article order. My main overall thought is, ironic given your essays and views on your user page, that there ought to be some offline sources (ie. books!) about Bennett and about the popular music of the period that could supplement what is otherwise mostly online items plus his own writings (which should not be being relied upon so heavily). Apart from that:

Do we know what Bennett did for a living when he dropped out at 16, before he was a singing waiter? Or was that pretty much what he went straight to doing?

Good point. He worked for the Associated Press. I've added that. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The WWII section refers to his singing career being "interrupted" by the war. But he does not seem actually to have had a career as a singer before the war (does being a singing waiter count??). So "interrupted" may not be the right word.

Agreed, it should have said 'aspiring career', but I've removed that whole clause. It should be obvious that being drafted and going to war interrupts whatever anyone is doing. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "encountering bigotry" point should be its own sentence with ref, and an example if available (what was the nature of it - verbal abuse? discrimination?).

I've broken it out as a separate sentence, and cast it in more specific and less general terms. It's biographically significant because it showed Bennett's distaste for military life even before he saw combat. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have some concerns about the primary source for Bennett's war experiences being his own autobio. If there's no external verification, i'd cut the detail back on this account. I would also make sure there are a few pointers to it being his own account (like the existing one about front row seat in hell).

I too wish there was more from other sources on this. The general outlines of what unit he was in are supported by other sources, and I've read accounts of the 63rd Division and the 255th Infantry Regiment during this time that track Bennett's description of what actions he went through and when. As for Bennett's telling of specific experiences, I don't see a reason to doubt them. He has never claimed to have performed any heroic deeds, talks about the war in unromantic terms, and has been a avowed pacifist ever since. Not exactly the profile of someone who concocts war stories. A real biographer could try to get access to Bennett's military record, or cross-check the story of being saved by Silver Star recipient Herbert Black ... but we have to make do with what we have. I don't want to remove this material, though, because it is biographically significant and to some degree foreshadows the attitude he would bring to his music career. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be back for more later, have to duck out... Cheers hamiltonstone (talk) 01:59, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your general point, I agree there's a dearth of non-Bennett book sources used here. Partly that's because I wrote the bulk of the article several years ago and was relying on online sources back then. But partly it's because there just aren't many books written about Bennett. There don't appear to be any real biographies published of him (with the possible exception of one written in 1984 that doesn't seem to be available anywhere). I've seen some analysis of his music published in books, which I should incorporate into the article, but not much. Compare this to Frank Sinatra#Further reading: a dozen biographies, and two dozen more books about different aspects of him! Sinatra was a larger-than-life figure, and Bennett isn't. I'm sure at some point someone's going to write a full biography on him, but it hasn't happened yet. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:59, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Wasted Time R. Do what you can to incorporate the analysis from the books you can find. It is interesting how Bennett and Sinatra's legacies differ in this particular regard.

Other thoughts:

I think the article may benefit from a section, perhaps at the end, that concentrates on critical evaluation and legacy. This may or may not need new material from your existing sources - bringing together what each of them says about his abilities and influence. There is also some of this material in the section "No retirement". You may be able to generate the section just by aggregating material in the existing text, particularly from the sentence "Accolades came to Bennett" onwards.

Yes, I was on the fence about including such a section before GA, but now I will go ahead with it. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i didn't understand the sentence "Later that year Bennett began singing show tunes to make up for a New York newspaper strike". This seems like a wierd non-sequitur. How would a newspaper strike affect a crooner such that he would need to "make up for" something??

This was indeed incoherent. I've reworded, corrected, and expanded it to: "Later that year the producers of the upcoming Broadway musical Kismet had Bennett record "Stranger in Paradise" as a way of promoting the show during a New York newspaper strike.[24] The song reached the top, the show was a hit, and Bennett began a long practice of recording show tunes.[24]" Wasted Time R (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did the Tony Bennett Show only run for a single summer? Do we know anything about its success or otherwise?

Yes, it only ran for a month in summer, as part of a rotation of replacements. I've clarified and added details about that, and I've also added another summer replacement stint he did in 1959. I've upgraded the sourcing from IMDB to two television series reference books I checked in the library. Haven't seen anything about its success yet; the New York Times archives have two references to the show in 1956, but neither says anything about its critical or commercial acceptance. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While the album cover for Tony Sings the Great Hits of Today! truly is ludicrous, you'll need a source that says so - otherwise it is, I don't know, sort of OR and sort of POV! What a picture, though!

Source added. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit nervous about relying on Dick Kleinman Fine Art as a source re his painting. There is a kind of conflict of interest here: we are trusting Benedetto's salesman to give us a reliable assessment re his art. Can we get any independent verification of institutions where his art may be hanging?

I've now used a PBS bio and a Kennedy Center profile to source these. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Given that various of his partners and children have played active roles in his career and causes, it would be good to get one or more photos of him with family, particularly manager Danny. However, I am well aware of the challenge of finding Wiki-compliant images...

Yeah ... it would be good to any photos of him before he was 79 years old! WP is a biographical image disaster ... Wasted Time R (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I would like to see a list of awards at the end of the article (the Grammys etc). Other editors might prefer the awards to have their own article if there are a lot of them, but for now a list here would be good.

Section now added. It isn't that long, so it doesn't need to be spun off. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If most of the above can be dealt with, my remaining question would be whether the language might need a slight edit to be a little more neutral in tone. I'm not sure about this, and it would be great to have another editor come in to look at this, once everything else has been done.

I want to say that the above is quite a shopping list of stuff to do for what is already a great article that surely tells one almost everything one needs to know about Bennett. Well done. Cheers. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further, minor points

Per WP:MOS, headings using articles (eg A, An) are discouraged. There are two such headings in this article. I would prefer to see it adhere to MOS, but these things are judgements - both headings sound quite different if the articles are dropped. Have a look at whether you think there is a better alternative or not.

This is one MoS rule that I tend to deliberately bend now and then ... especially when the article has a natural story arc that the headers and ToC will help engage the reader with. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also per MOS, there are quite a few references in this article to things like the "Billboard Hot 100" where non-breaking (hard) spaces -   - might help readability.

OK, I'll look at those. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure we're done here. I'm going to go ahead and pass this. Wasted Time R, i know you are a very experienced editor, while I'm just starting out making my first GA Reviews, so i would welcome any feedback to my talk page about my work. Regards. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the review, and I will leave comments as requested. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]