Talk:Tommy Flanagan/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 16:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give this a go. It's been sitting in GAN for months and months, and you did a good job with reviewing one of my GAs, so I only think it's fair I return the favour.

Thanks! EddieHugh (talk) 17:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Two paragraphs is about the right size according to WP:LEADLENGTH
It took me a while to work out where his birth date was cited - it's in the WKCR radio transcript cited later. Might it be worth reusing this footnote, either in the lead or the infobox, so it's obvious where the source comes from? The encyclopedia.com source also has it.

See first point in next section.

Early life

The WKCR source (see above) cites his place of birth and number of siblings, but it's actually the next source this LA Times obituary that cites it. I think the references are just a bit mixed up.

I've added a separate sentence giving place and date of birth, with LA Times and Guardian as sources.

Is the enclyopedia.com source actually from that site, or is it just a republishing of another one?

I'll check/see if I can find a different source.

(Later) Now updated with info on original source. EddieHugh (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"but within a few years he preferred the piano" .. the LA Times source says it was around the age of 10, which is a little more specific

I usually hedge when I find contradictory sources, so prefer the vaguer wording.

I think "Early influences were Art Tatum and Teddy Wilson," would sit better as "Flanagan's early influences included .... "

Done.

Wikilink to Nat Cole should be Nat "King" Cole as that's the article title (plus I clicked on the link thinking "is it that Nat Cole, or another one?)

Done. Dropping the "King" is a jazz purist's thing...

"These, however, played in an earlier style," ... I think this sentence and the following one can probably be merged together or reorganised - as it is, it looks a bit disjointed as I read it. Primarily the first sentence ends in "bebop", but then "bebop" is mentioned a few words later. Sorry if that doesn't make sense!

Done, or attempted.

Images

File:Tommy Flanagan.jpg is CC-BY-SA 2.0 on Commons. However, how can Tommy Flanagan be the source of a picture he's featured in? I think this is a minor issue, as even if it wasn't free, we could probably claim fair use as a photograph of a deceased subject.

I'll try to look into it, although I have little experience in these things.

(Later) It's from flickr. It's down as having being reviewed by a bot. Should the 'Source' wording be changed? Please do what is needed, if you know the best way. EddieHugh (talk) 17:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure to be honest - I think this is a Commons issue. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links

The National Endowment for the Arts source returns 404.

Updated.

More later..... Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Changes and comments are indented above. Thanks, EddieHugh (talk) 17:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, picking up from where I left off. Sorry about the delay!

Early career around Detroit

The first sentence has an {{rp}} to Lars Bjorn's book, but the reference itself specifically includes a page number. The reference is re-used in several other places. I'm not sure whether all citations are to the same page (if it's a general book then it's perfectly possible one page will contain all the pertinent information). This generally needs checking - also for book references I like to use the {{sfn}} template (see Hammond organ and Leslie speaker) for liberal use of this. The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings is another source you've used that could make use of this.

Moved the page number to the end, as another rp. I'll look at changing to sfn later.

(Later) changed all {{rp}} to {{sfn}}. Thanks for the suggestion. EddieHugh (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"he could not mingle in the club" - doesn't sound quite right, how about "Flanagan's age meant he could not mix with the club's audience"?

Changed to "could not stay in the bar area of the club".

"Flanagan auditioned as a pianist for a camp show" - I assume by this you mean he played for army audiences, but the phrase "camp show" made me think of Liberace ;-) ... might be worth rewording this

Fair point. The sources have "camp show", but the language has moved on. Changed to "an army show".

"He got the role, which prevented him from being sent to the Korean War, but around a year later he was sent to Kunsan, with the war ongoing" - the citation needs a page number, and presumably "the war ongoing" means the Korean war, which somewhat contradicts the claim he was "prevented" from going

Inserted "at that time" to support "around a year later".

"he worked as "a motion-picture-projector operator"" - I don't think this needs the quotation marks.

Removed them.

"Discharged after two years in the army" - suggest "After two years' service, he was discharged and...."

Changed to "After two years' service he was discharged and returned to Detroit, where he ". EddieHugh (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Career after move to New York

"Flanagan moved to New York in 1956" - the source explicitly says New York City (and IMHO the state with Buffalo and Rochester is a very different entity altogether!)

The source has "Mr. Flanagan moved to New York in 1956, at the tail end of Charlie Parker's reign". He lived in Manhattan at the end of his life, but the source doesn't state that he moved there in 1956.

"Saxophone Colossus, which became known as a masterpiece" - I think this comes under the "words to watch" part of the GA criteria - if the album is critically acclaimed, pull a specific quote or two from the sources, particularly if it mentions Flanagan's contribution directly. The mention of Giant Steps later on is a good example of this.

Used The Penguin Guide to Jazz again.

"Later that year he joined J. J. Johnson, and in 1957 he recorded several albums with the trombonist, and then toured Europe with him" - the wording here is a little clunky, having to "and" clauses. I'd suggest changing the last clause to "including a tour of Europe"

Changed to "Later that year he joined trombonist J. J. Johnson, with whom he recorded several albums in 1957 and then toured Europe."

"a rare instance on record of Flanagan sounding hesitant" - this is cited to this Guitar Player source, but I can't find the word "hesitant", "hesitate" or "hesitating" in it

Changed to "uncertain", and source to The Penguin Guide to Jazz, which has "Flanagan doesn't sound much more confident with the new idiom than Walton had been".

"including for a UK tour" - doesn't need "for" in it

Word cut.

"In this period, Flanagan recorded albums for several leaders from an earlier era" - "earlier era" is a bit vague. Presumably this is referring to the fact the artists were in commercial decline during the early 1960s?

I don't know how they were doing commercially, but they had been on the scene since the 1930s/40s and were mainly associated with playing in a different style from Rollins, Coltrane, etc. I'm not keen on "veteran"; how about "from a stylistically earlier era"?

"and was based on the West Coast" - this is somewhat vague. Do you mean he relocated from New York City to California at this time?

Source has "By this time, I had moved to the Coast". Changed to "and lived on the West Coast". I couldn't find much detail on this part of his life, probably because most US jazz musicians struggled for work at that time.

"his 1975 trio release, The Tommy Flanagan Tokyo Recital, was his first as leader since 1960" - source needs a page number

I'll look into it...

(Later) Added link to google books version, which has no page numbers. EddieHugh (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"and exercised by walking more than he had previously" - source needs a page number

Added page numbers to all from that source. EddieHugh (talk) 16:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Career after Ella Fitzgerald

"whose heavier bass lines added urgency to the trio's sound." - whose opinion is this?

It's from Peter Watrous, in the source given: "Mr. Washington's robust drive contrasted with Mr. Mraz's lighter lines, adding an urgency to the group that hadn't existed before".

"Flanagan continued to be praised for the elegance of his playing" - this paragraph would sit better in the "Playing style" section

I think that it fits in with the earlier descriptions of his trios. The second sentence in the para definitely belongs in the main career sections.

I would move some of the commentary about his heart attacks, bypass surgery and health into the "Personal life" section. Biographies tend to put "Death" in a separate section too - this could expand out to mention the contemporary obituaries that have been used as sources elsewhere

The main section this is in is 'Later life and career'. I suggest renaming its sub-sections as '1945–1955', '1956 – early 1978', and 'late 1978 – 2001', so that the contents can be more overtly about his life (and death), not just career.

Playing style

This NPR source includes a quote of Flanagan's : "No. 1 bit of advice for working with singers: Never play the melody" which would be worth using here

It's borderline. The text has "on the program he gave his No. 1 bit of advice for working with singers: Never play the melody." In the recording from that page, Costello reports Flanagan saying that. I've looked for it on other sites, but haven't found anything giving it as a direct quote. So, it would have to be "Flanagan was quoted as saying that his first piece of advice when accompanying vocalists was 'never play the melody'", or similar, which isn't as attractive.

Influence

This section is only one paragraph. I would rename it "Legacy" and move the paragraph outlining his Grammy nominations into here.

Changed to 'Awards and legacy' and added Grammy nominations bit.

Summary

I think I've covered everything in the article now. Everything looks fixable in a short frame of time, so I'm putting the article On hold pending further updates. Well done for creating an interesting introduction to an important jazz pianist. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Updates and comments are indented above. There are still a few things that I need to sort out. I'll post here again when I think that I've addressed everything. EddieHugh (talk) 16:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that I've now fixed everything requested, or commented (most recent ones are indented & signed above). Ones that I've demurred on or made alternative suggestions for: Early life 3; Images; Career after move to New York 1 & 6; Career after Ella Fitzgerald 2 & 3; Playing style 1. EddieHugh (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Hopefully tomorrow evening I will be in a position to check everything and then give it a pass. I'll keep you posted! Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think all my concerns have been addressed, so I am passing the review. Sorry, I haven't had much time to get on recently. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 22:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and suggestions. EddieHugh (talk) 23:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]