Talk:Tomer Chencinski

Nationality

Since he was capped by Canada, he can't play for Israel. If that's not correct, then change that information as well. The lede should only indicate his FIFA-recognized nationality, a discussion of his birth and subsequent arrival in Canada should be discussed in the article, not highlighted in the lede. See WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Players with dual nationalities can move from playing from one country, at one time, to playing for another country, at another time, in sports like soccer and hockey and baseball and tennis, and yes -- this does happen, and we don't have to wait for them to elect to do so for the fact that they are born in country x to be notable. --Epeefleche (talk) 05:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

The repeated deletions in the lede are inappropriate. He is Israeli-born. That qualifies him to play for Israel in international play. That is notable. Therefore it belongs in the lede. It doesn't matter that he has yet to do so -- he is still an active player. And what was pointed to in the rationale for deletion is a statement that begins: "generally ... " This is the sort of circumstance that is an exception to that rule. WG -- please don't edit war over this -- bring it to the openpara talk page if you like, or the hockey soccer wproject talk page, or both (or point them here) if you want further input. You have two editors who disagree with you, and none who agree with you (both of whom you've reverted), so please don't edit against consensus. You're seasoned enough and under enough scrutiny already elsewhere that I won't template you, but your last revert was uncalled for given that two editors had already disagreed with you. --Epeefleche (talk) 05:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I already discussed in the previous section and I'm sorry, the information is not supported at all. Aside from that, it violates WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO. Please stop edit warring over this. He's not a hockey player, so why would I take it to the hockey project? Your last revert was uncalled for since it's unsupported and violates two guidelines. I'll take it to the appropriate project. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:27, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the source. The added source makes it appear as though he has not played in a FIFA-sanctioned game for Canada at the senior level. If he had, he would not be eligible to play for Israel or Poland as is stated in the source. Since it was only for a friendly, that explains it and the infobox is once again, wrong. The lede should therefore read "Tomer Chencinski (born December 1, 1984) is an Israeli soccer player" or footballer (whichever you prefer. Both the indefinite article is incorrect as is the nationality. The infobox should be updated and the article should be corrected as well. Still not sure what this has to do with hockey though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's supported.

And you wrote: "he can't play for Israel". You're obviously just making stuff up, about what country he can play for -- I hate it when editors do that ... and are wrong. As you clearly are.

See what the New York Times says: "He is eligible to play for Canada and Israel".

Please stop just spouting stuff that you are making up as though it is a truism.

And please don't edit war against two editors. (and don't accuse them of edit warring against you, when you are the editor who nobody has agreed with).

And please don't ignore the word "generally" in what you are citing to, and act as though it doesn't exist. Epeefleche (talk) 05:47, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't supported until you added the support. Your addition of the reference was after I stated that it wasn't supported. So, I'm sorry, I wasn't making things up.

As for the statement that he can't play for Israel, that was a statement based on the existence of a cap for Canada, which I later went on to explain was incorrect information in the article, based on the referenced article. So again, not making stuff up, simply trusting Wikipedia, which I shouldn't do.

As for truisms, I'm sorry that I trusted Wikipedia, but when two editors violate editing guidelines (OPENPARA and MOSBIO) and do so without references (WP:V and WP:RS) I'd have to say they're the ones edit warring. Removing incorrect information is an exception. However, when they ask me to discuss I do. Now back to truisms, you stated "nobody", which is hyperbole. Perhaps you should stop with that.

As for the use of "generally", if you're bringing in other discussions, you should really link to them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh and as for other sports changing nationality, FIFA doesn't usually allow for that. A letter of permission is required. Again, that's only what I've heard in discussions in the the football project and have seen in a few articles, and as we know, Wikipedia isn't reliable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:08, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

You wrote: "he can't play for Israel". That's wrong -- you simply made it up. You did zero research to see if it was even supportable. Had you done so, in about 5 seconds you would have known your blanket, unqualified (no "if the article is correct ...") assertion was simply false. And yes -- you made your false assertion because you: a) did zero research; and b) trusted wp ... which as an experienced editor you know you should never do. Y

And if you had skipped over the NYT interview, you would have still found this interview, which states: "When asked which colours he would prefer to wear; the blue and white of Israel, or the red and white of Canada, he answers with a confident smile, "My heart lies with Israel, and should I be called up to represent them, I will not hesitate for a moment".".

The OPENPARA reference to "country" is not an unqualified one. Though you make believe it is.

Most sports such as those I indicated require that the governing body authorize the athlete representing the other country, after he has represented one country. I'm aware of athletes seeking permission, and then the announcement of them getting it, but can't recall a denial where they were born in the country for which they are seeking permission to play. Ashkan Dejagah represented Germany at youth levels, btw (well ... except when they played Israel), and then (FIFA removed the age limit on players switching nations) represented Iran (the country of his birth) at the senior level. Jesse Levine in tennis moved from representing the US to representing the country of his birth (Canada). See also the 294 soccer players in Category:Dual internationalists (football), and world champion Eunice Barber who has represented two countries in track and field, as well as this List of eligibility transfers in athletics. I'm not sure we have the best of lists on wp, but I seem to recall having seen a stab at one such list somewhere. Epeefleche (talk) 06:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I did write that he can't play for Israel. I also wrote that it was based on the information in the article at the time. My research was based on the article. Supportable = referenced to me. There was no reference and I didn't skip the NYT blog, I didn't know it existed until you added it, which, if you had taken the time to do, wouldn't have resulted in you edit warring over material that wasn't referenced. And yes, you edit warred because you restored material without adding a reference to support the claim.

OPENPARA references ethnicity and WP:FOOTY has consistently interpreted FIFA recognized nationality as nationality and anything else as ethnicity.

Representing a player at a youth level does not lock a player into that nationality at a senior level and no FIFA exemption is required, but that's not the case here as Chencinski is reported to have represented the senior men's team.

You still haven't fixed the infobox as I asked you to. Please remove that he has represented Canada. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:22, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Everything I would say in response would just be me repeating what I have already said. As to the infobox, I didn't input the error (so I'm not sure why you wouldn't fix any error you find yourself, rather than ask me to do so), and have no problem with you fixing any error. Epeefleche (talk) 19:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for not playing the broken record again.

The reason I did not fix the infobox was because I was already at two edits and I didn't not want to be accused of edit warring. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

His Canada cap was an official game, I am adding it back. GiantSnowman 17:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I saw it on the soccer Canada site, but then how can he still be eligible to play for Israel and Poland? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

As he hasn't played a competitive international, he may change allegiances once to a country of which he was a citizen at the point he first represented Canada. Hack (talk) 04:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Poland

Poland -- as distinct from Israel and Canada -- is not a country in which RSs say he lived, or was or is a citizen. The connection, as explained in the NYT article, is that his parents lived there. That is the only connection mentioned. As I understand it, FIFA via a committee ruling judged that players must be able to demonstrate a "clear connection" to a country that they had not been born in but wished to represent, in which case the player must have at least one parent or grandparent who was born in that country, or the player must have been resident in that country for at least two years. It would appear that he could represent Poland per the NYT article under the "my parents were born there" exception. --Epeefleche (talk) 03:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

But you're missing the point. You've turned the lede into his possible FIFA nationalities. It's not about places he's lived, but places that could grant him citizenship. The New York Times blog is clear on which nations he qualifies for. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)