Talk:Tiyyar

Separate page

Why people fear to have a seperate page for thiyyar — Preceding unsigned comment added by HariNellatt (talk • contribs) 09:58, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Original research

This article still has pretty serious original research issues. For one thing, it is not clear that the cited sources refer to the same group: cited sources do not support the claim that the Tiyyar group is descended from the Thiyya dynasty. The citation provided for this claim ([1]) just says the Thiyya dialect (spoken by the Thiyya community), which neither identifies Tiyyar with Thiyya nor Thiyya people with the Thiyya dynasty. This is just one error, virtually every claim in the article takes similar liberties with sourcing. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The article have lot of Major issues issues .

these article is mostly filled with issues - 1) Are thiyya and ezhavas are separate if so please split up the main page [Ezhava]] and provide the info. Also what is the actual name ? is it thiyya, teeyar ot thiyyar ? 2) Separate dialect called thiyya ? What is the source of this , that too it appears in the lead ? 3) Most of this are discussed in the main page what is the need of this low quality duplicate copy $)Majority of the sources are recent news articles ? will this be given more weightage to raj era sources Updated in the main page ? 6) Also i see that multiple times this page was redirected and somehow recently somone removed the redirect. If both are different kindly split up the main page [Ezhava]] as many articles consider both as synonymous and this is creating heavy confudsion. 7) regarding population , where is the source ? , the main page says ezhavas are 8 million so is this true or false ? Lisa121996 (talk) 05:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I seriously think the redirect need to be there before the entire issue of the article is not adressed. In addition to that WP:RAJ sources do not support claims of a distinction from Ezhava or a Thiyya vs. Tiyyar distinction; cited sources are a hodgepodge of mentions, The main page Ezhava says both are synonymous , while the current page claims it as a distinct ethnicity. This need to be broadly discussed as the page is in an unstable form , at this stage redirecting is the best option as all the info is already provided in the main page Ezhava with raj era sources and all are detailed . Lisa121996 (talk) 08:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Once again , I have thoroughly checked the sources and found out that this violates almost all of the policies . these are duplicate contents as well as simply non sourced contents , All are properly sourced in the main page which considers both as synonymous . also this was been redirected since years . Lisa121996 (talk) 08:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe yes, there is difference between Ezhava and Tiyyar. Both are connected but some changes?

All sources used in this article comes from ezhava page, so there is source problem. Other editors already add the Original Research tag to this article. Piyush Chekavar (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The caste expert @Sitush actually said both ezhava and thiyya are the same, and he deleted any thiyya page. But he is no active now, so we made thiyya page. Is any problem? Piyush Chekavar (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is even more than that, just look at the sources all are just news articles , with the claim of even being a separate dialect that too in the lead ?, Also the page do not talk about the main page . A detailed decsription on the caste is given in the main page and there the editors all of them took a stand that both are synonymous from the page history I checked. the page thiyya was deleted many time , so now a new page with a name tiyyar came, so can anybody create more pages with tiyya, thiyyar, ezhava etc.. these are contradicting each other. see if the page identifies both as separate a split request need to be raised and multiple articles need to be corrected. else there is no point in this page being in its current state. Lisa121996 (talk) 10:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This page has been in a redirect to the main page Ezhava for like 10 years .

This page has been in a redirect to the main page Ezhava for like 10 years .

The decision was always a redirect , hence before adding lifting the redirect we need to get into a conclusion.

1) The main page treat both as synonymous with Raj era sources and historic books which is of high importance than news articles.

wikipedia always considered both as same as per the archieves. the claims this to be distinct.

[[Ezhava#:~:text=They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Thiyyar, Tiyyas and Theeyas in the Malabar region.[5][7][8]]]

The sources are very clear and wiki main page uses multiple raj era sources.

If both are disntinct all these information shall be removed from the main page and a split up request need to be raised . The reason is there are clear sources which mentions both are same. The claim of being different is already adressed in the page.

Most sources uses it as synonymous and this is the reason why the redirect was installed, before lifting that the reccuring issue or dispute need to be solved

Else this should be in the redirect state as approved by majority of editors. Lisa121996 (talk) 13:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The main page clearly mentions both as synonymous to each other :

They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Thiyyar, Tiyyas and Theeyas in the Malabar region.

Quoting it with sources , however no WP:RAJ mentions both are distinct, rather all mentions both as same. The aources provided in tiyyar is news articles and dubious sources , In addition to that the claim of having a separate dialect etc are pure misinformation . Since this was a discussion for like 10 years . A solution need to be taken before lifting the redirect suddenly, as the main page indeed uses sources which have more weightage and both os these pages are duplicate as well as contradicting version of each other and that is the reason why this was in a redirect since a long time. Lisa121996 (talk) 13:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thus if Both are sepaarte , this need to be adresssed in the main page Ezhava as well before lifting the redirect, which was there for like 10 years . Lisa121996 (talk) 13:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Multiple pages was already created from the previous record - in the names thiyya,tiyyas etc and these are currently redirected to the page Ezhava , so why this alone is a separate page called "Tiyyar".

Adding some more points as a part of my findings :

Multiple pages like following , were created and all are currently redirected to the main page Ezhava All were in the name of thiyyas,thiyya etc providing the links, now a new one is created with the name tiyyar :

[[2]]
[[3]]

[[4]]

and now finally new addition Tiyyar is been created from years and in all previous cases , the result after all discussion was a redirect, without reaching to a new consensus , the stable form ie, redirect cannot be lifted. [[5]]

So it is very clear why the name "Tiyyar" is used instead of Thiyya and tiyyas, While the commonly used or mentioned name is mostly "thiyya", the reason is simply because all these pages are already cerated and are redirected. @Rosguill . This is simply like creating a new page called 'Endiya" for "India" and adding some random things.

without reaching a consensus for this the redirect cannot be lifted as this redirect was actually a solution . Lisa121996 (talk) 15:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

My investigation 2 on this -->

See in the title of the page the name "Tiyyar" is given , while the content of the article mostly uses the words thiyya and thiyyas , even the dubious or very recent news articles sources they have provided uses those words . Even in the main pageEzhava , you dont see names like 'Tiyyar'but it is thiyya or thiyyas (plural) But why the article is not created in the name Thiyya or thiyyas, when this is the official name in all records ? Like i can see some few mentions like Irava, Izhuva etc for Ezhava, but the name of the page is always Ezhava , The answer is simply because these attempts (to create separate page for thiyya as thiyya and thiyyas, like 3 time earlier ) were already made in the recent years and after lot of discussions from the side of different admins and editors have came to the decision in all 3 cases that the page shall be permanently redirected to the main page Ezhava . This is the main reason why the title of the page is "Tiyyar" while the body is mostly "thiyya or thiyyas " simply because 3 pages were previously created and all are being redirected permanently to the main page Ezhava , Providing the links, that I found  :

[[6]]

[[7]]

[[8]]

So if the redirect of this particluar one "Tiyyar" alone is lifted (opposed to the previously made consensus or any rediscussions , there should be a valid reason and investigation on why the pages thiyya" and "thiyyas and "tiyyas" mentioning the similar groups with similar claims, are already permanently redirected to the page Ezhava and why "Tiyyar" is used instead of "thiyya". @Rosguill Just my new findings on this . Lisa121996 (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Findings 3 -->

It seems like @sitush have already given warning to the user "HariNellat"[[9]] one month back when he intially lifted the redirect of this particular page a month ago. Lisa121996 (talk) 18:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes Sitush said the following to HariNellat:

Please stop attempting to remove the redirect to Ezhava at the Tiyyar page. The issue has been discussed to death over a decade and more - the two are synonymous in reliable sources, and the former is the more common usage. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 05:51, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems that Tiyyar want seperate page becoz there is not enough mentioning of Tiyyar/Thiyya in the first paragraphs of the Ezhava page. So maybe it create the confusion?

Can we add the sentence that "Ezhava are also known as Thiyya or Tiyyar in Malabar region" to the first paragraph on Ezhava page? Then I think it will be more happy for them. I think this is more due to representation issue.

I also requsted the Extended Page Protection for Tiyyar page, because when I was adding information to it, it was just copying already found information from Ezhava page, and so notability was a problem. ADministrator Daniel Case gave approval for page protection. Piyush Chekavar (talk) 06:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I dont know about that , but the problem is not protection , all these were already discussed and a consensus were reached in a broader level. So lifting the redirect is the issue also this page is a spelling chnage of the pages thiyya,thiyyas etc Lisa121996 (talk) 06:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Both being synonymous is well discussed in Ezhava page and there is enough mention for that Lisa121996 (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

if there is representative issue (which i dont think is there ) that need to be requested in the main page Ezhava not by creating multiple articles my changing the spelling and by confusing the audience . Lisa121996 (talk) 06:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Just Follow up and the simple summary is that :

This page is just a spelling change 'Tiyyar' of the permanently redirected article thiyya, thiyyas to the main page Ezhava .

It is clear that the page is talking about the thiyya as a distinct ethnicity from Ezhava . This has been discusssed earlier lot of times by admins as well as many others and as a result of that , those multiple pages created such as thiyya, thiyyas, tiyyas etc regarding the same topic were permanently redirected to the main page Ezhava . (see link)

[[10]]

[[11]]

[[12]]

this page was also redirected in the same way ,

From the logs I can see that Sitush have already given a warning to user -"HariNellatt" (see link) [[13]] a month ago who was disruptively lifting the redirect without any further discussions.

So simply this new page cannot be created , or lifeted from the redirect by changing the spelling of the tile , like this page says about 'Tiyyar' while it talks about the thiyya in its body part , which is permamnently redirected to Ezhava after consensus.

[[14]]

[[15]]

[[16]]

Thus before lifting this redirect please , adress this consensus which is already discussed in the main page Ezhava too.

Also a permanent redirect shall be intiated to this ('Tiyyar') similar to how it is done to 'thiyya' , 'thiyyas' and tiyyas

[[17]]

[[18]]

[[19]]

as these are about the same group and if the lifting of redirect issue by someone without discussing the issue still persists

Simply its like creating pages like Endiya, Yindya, ndia for India and claiming that these are different countries. Lisa121996 (talk) 06:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah i agree, the sources use Ezhava and Thiyya interchangingly, becoz both are identical i think.

I add the Edit requests on Ezhava Talk Page, I used the source you mentioned earlier and also found on Ezhava page itself. Piyush Chekavar (talk) 06:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

That what the editors said in all from all talk page archieves . I dont know whether any changes need to be made on Ezhava or not as already both are mentioned as same. Its upto them, but the problem is somebody occasionally lifting the redirect of this page without any prior discussions and creating new new articles regarding the same (This is the 4th one). Well as per all consensus , I found they are considered synonymous by all editors, Actually this is not the only page for thiyya/thiyyas/Tiyyar , this is the third page . Already 2, 3 pages were created and were permanently redirected to Ezhava as per the redirects .

[[20]]

[[21]]

[[22]]

So without discussing it this alone cannot be a separate one , just by changing the spelling of the title. Like this is propably the thrird or 4 th page in the same subject .

From the records its seen that @Sitush have cleared it earlier many times even one month ago. (see link) [[23]] Lisa121996 (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This Tiyyar is the 5th version of the same duplicate copies created which where permanently redirected by admins

Just posting my findings for future reference as occasionally this is happening as a loop. This page Tiyyar is the 5th version of the same duplicate copies created which where permanently redirected by admins after discussions from years under the name Thiyya, thiyyas, Thiyyar and now the latest version "Tiyyar" .

see links : [[24]] [[25]] [[26]] [[27]] [[28]]

Attempts of this redirect lifting is already discussed by multiple editors too - [[29]]

Interestingly now I can find that already more and more articles were created by changing the spelling from thiyya to like tiyyar, Thiyyar, theeyyar etc are coming up occasionally to confuse wikipedia as wikipedia already permanently redirected all to the main page Ezhava after reaching to a consensus [[30]] [[31]].

At this point, I dont know wheather this particular redirect Tiyyar to Ezhava is permanently protected like these (see links ) [[32]] [[33]] [[34]]

If not , there are chances that this will be lifted again without any discussion , considering the range of previous incidents happended. [[35]] [[36]].

So please permanently protect this redirect to Ezhava just like how it is done to similar copies like (see links) [[37]] [[38]] [[39]] [[40]]

as the same thing is happening again and again . Lisa121996 (talk) 12:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

So my doubt is correct ,

a new draft [[41]] 6 th duplicate copy "Thiyar" is being created , what is a permanent solution for this ?? They are simply changing the spelling and coming up with the same contents and talking about the same people. Ezhava , this is been discussed since a long time. Lisa121996 (talk) 13:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)