Talk:Tili (caste)

Title of the page

The name of the caste is TILI. It should be renamed from TILLI to TILI 206849 wiki (talk) 19:04, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

THIS CASTE NAME IS TILI OR EITHER TILY NOT Tilli

SPELLING EROR SHOULD BE FIXED IT IS TILI OR EITHER TILY NOT Tilli PHANTOM 097y (talk) 06:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The article title cannot be changed because "Tili" is currently a redirect to the article Dilijan. David notMD (talk) 09:22, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok can it be 'BENGALI Tili' instead of Tili? PHANTOM 097y (talk) 09:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I do not know anything about this topic, so cannot have an opinion on that being a better name or not. David notMD (talk) 09:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I KNOW THIS TOPIC AND I HAVE PROOFS AND REFRENCE WHICH CLAIM TILI CASTE AS A BENGALI TILI CASTE PHANTOM 097y (talk) 11:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done, as per naming convention! Ekdalian (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This was a better solution than renaming Bengali Tili. David notMD (talk) 15:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

yep PHANTOM 097y (talk) 16:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

REFRENCE

How I can add this REFRENCE properly 21 June 2024 (UTC)

TILI is a mercentile caste not agrarian

Ok so I have reliable REFRENCE which States Tili as a commercial/mercentile caste not AGRAGRIAN can someone change the word AGRAGRIAN please? I can provide refrence too PHANTOM 097y (talk) 00:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Please share reliable sources here along with url and page number. Ekdalian (talk) 09:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.03995/page/41/mode/1up?q=+Tili

Here in Page no 42 claims Tili as a commercia/mercentile caste

It is CALCUTTA UNIVERSITY REPORT PHANTOM 097y (talk) 13:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you please mention who is the (reliable) author of this source? Ekdalian (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Prafulla Chandra Ray (1861 – 1944) PHANTOM 097y (talk) 00:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It is obvious that it must be a Raj era source originally, which has been reprinted! Ekdalian (talk) 04:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=JAUdW9_iziAC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=Tili+caste+high+caste&source=bl&ots=1XlAYQ3Tdl&sig=ACfU3U1zAjj7DieYw-8c6kPd7qcnmK-0hA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6rs_J4rKHAxUW1zgGHa2bCsE4MhDoAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Tili%20caste%20high%20caste&f=false

Look at this book here dasgupta claim Tili as a High caste or high social group it is not raj era now you please use middle Ranking caste as a POV. PHANTOM 097y (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

PHANTOM 097y, the source is clearly talking about a particular household, not the Tili caste in general. Please stop acting like an obsessed WP:SPA. Ekdalian (talk) 09:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The source state that TILI households are high social standing please read the ref again if you are not satisfy with this I will provide you other reliable ref PHANTOM 097y (talk) 13:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The source is talking about a couple of Tili households, that too in a particular village. We cannot assume that this is applicable for the caste in general. I have read multiple reliable sources on castes, especially Bengali castes, but never came across any statement supporting that the Tilis enjoy high social status! Anyway, you may try to find reliable sources supporting your claim. Ekdalian (talk) 17:51, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok I will find another one PHANTOM 097y (talk) 01:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

MENTION

Ramkrishna Mukherjee where he mentioned Bengali Teli change their caste Teli to Tili but actually,if we see from Britishers original census we can see that TELI and Tili are separate and if we see the Bengali SCRIPTURES like chandipuran, mangalpuran, BRHAMAN HALIYUDH SHARVASIYA(this literature were from 15th-16th century) we can find Teli doesn't have connection to Tili.some modern historians confused with TELI which is seperate from Teli. I think his information is not a reliable one it is disputed actually. I have so many proofs (English Bengali both) WHICH states Tili and TELI is seperate caste there is no connection with each other PHANTOM 097y (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You have probably not yet understood our policies. The information is not only reliably sourced, but also attributed to the author. We have clearly mentioned that this is the opinion of the author! Ekdalian (talk) 17:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

In 495 page it is clearly mentioned that Tili is a high caste, that's why I told you Tili is a middle caste or not this is still debatable https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.05838 PHANTOM 097y (talk) 00:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, who is the reliable author here? I have provided two reliable sources categorizing them as a middle or intermediate caste. Moreover, according to all reliable sources, Bengal had only three higher castes; read Baidya for more information! Ekdalian (talk) 04:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It is a study work bruh PHANTOM 097y (talk) 08:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I can understand, but we need reliable authors in such articles. Ekdalian (talk) 08:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok I will find it soon 🙏 PHANTOM 097y (talk) 08:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

bro in some english documents it is ALSO mentioned that Kayastha and vaidya which is also called upper caste categories into middle caste and in some these two categories as upper caste this same situation happens to Tili caste.

I will do research on it and I will provide you reliable author with non-british Raj documents PHANTOM 097y (talk) 08:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

There has been variations everywhere,sometimes Bengali Brahmins were also called middle castes as they weren't considered true Brahmins by the Heartland's Brahmins. But traditionally there have been only three upper castes in Bengal Equivalent to each other. The Bhadralok. WatteryFire (talk) 01:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Nope the bhadralok can be anyone who is rich and elite,if a BRAHAMN person is a poor then he/she cannot be BRHAMAN.

Bruh but different peoples are different opinions in that time Kayasth and Vaidya considered as a NABASAKH caste i saw in a document WHICH is from British raj

Then they 2 do upwardment for their caste

Any caste become upper caste in WB but they have to become rich and educated that's it.

That's the thing which Kayastha and vaidya get success PHANTOM 097y (talk) 11:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

TILI is a middle Ranking caste this is the POV of gupta swarup

So there should be mentioned of it that according to gupta swarup TILI is a middle ranking CASTE. PHANTOM 097y (talk) 11:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Ramkrishna Mukherjee

Can I remove ramkrishna mukherjee's opinion because it is still debatable and I provide you some proofs that Tili aren't related to Teli In WB, Teli are kolus but Tili's don't have any status like that in past years and present too.

We should provide reliable proofs not Disputed opinions PHANTOM 097y (talk) 01:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

No sorry, you can't. The related statement cannot be removed since it is relevant and reliably sourced! Don't try to continuously push your caste agenda. Ekdalian (talk) 06:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any agenda I give Wikipedia contribution and I don't push my caste ok! My aim Is to provide you all proper knowledge PHANTOM 097y (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Middle Ranking

Ok, Tili is a middle ranking caste as per the pov of gupta,swarup it's not for all So,the term middle ranking should be in the history and origin PHANTOM 097y (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

No, almost all reliable sources mention the same. I have cited two, one calling them middle ranking, another calling them intermediate meaning the same. Morover, this is how other Bengali caste articles look (lede)! A separate section is required for varna status only. Ekdalian (talk) 05:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Nope no requirement of varna section

Bro I have many research work which state Tili as a High caste in some articles also I see that so,but the problem is they all are research work 😕 PHANTOM 097y (talk) 09:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Now you know that you need to find modern scholarly work by reliable authors! Ekdalian (talk) 15:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes 🙌

For some reason my research gone very slowly because of my academics otherwise I will provide you RELIABLE authors PHANTOM 097y (talk) 16:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, great! Carry on. Ekdalian (talk) 17:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Bruh I also see that intermediate that's not the reliable source I think

If you told this then I think yesterday I was provided you a source that state Tili is a high caste

You also see that source PHANTOM 097y (talk) 01:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Tili Caste Government Document Acceptability

@Ekdalian Clearly, you've got a personal vendetta against the Tili caste, which is fascinating considering I've backed everything with credible government documents and scholarly works based on primary sources. But hey, maybe in your world, facts are just inconvenient obstacles to your narrative. It's amusing how you casually dismiss government documents as false—are you the self-appointed encyclopedia of truth now? It's laughable that you can't handle the reality that the Tili community is one of the most powerful in Bengal. But don't worry, stay cozy in your bubble. Meanwhile, those government documents you so easily brush off have already exposed the truth. Might want to grab some Burnol—sounds like you're going to need it.

Link of NCBC document :- 1. https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddBH14.pdf?fbclid=IwY2xjawE5bHBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHebY3z4auhohney28AwdnEqqYVy-3oPCu9-RD7O96iBwCym6G-56yCMf9Q_aem_8K00XcNqPBfeatM2FN6BqQ

2.https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddWB-25.pdf

It has been clearly established that Tilis belong to the Upper Caste, and the false OBC status has been rightly rejected. This makes me wonder if your hostility toward this community stems from a personal grievance. Perhaps you were denied financial assistance by Tilis who saw through your intentions, or maybe a girl from this community rejected you. It’s possible they didn’t invite you to participate in a puja at their home. Just because you live in a particular place doesn’t give you the right to write things based on your biased perceptions. The NCBC has thoroughly debunked the unfounded theory that Tilis converted from Telis, basing their decision on modern scholarly research and primary sources. If you lack accurate knowledge about a caste, you should refrain from using your perceptions to demean them. And NCBC is much more credible than you. Please either update the article about the Tili community with accurate information or consider removing it altogether. It's better for you to avoid spreading misinformation. 2409:40E1:10B4:8E6C:C9BF:13FE:8BDF:8206 (talk) 2409:40E1:10B4:8E6C:C9BF:13FE:8BDF:8206 (talk) 07:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks are treated seriously here in Wikipedia! All the socks have been blocked! Have you read and understood the edit summary? I have clearly mentioned the reason for revert. Ekdalian (talk) 08:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

yes I read the edit summary..you didn't even value the Government document..which is much more reliable.... 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

And yet, you're doing exactly what you criticize a particular community for. It seems I just learned this behavior from you. You're so narrow-minded that you can't even comprehend government documents properly. I can tell you're shaken after reading those official papers. I've even seen you personally attack Tilis on a Quora page. 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, we don't accept primary sources in caste articles; I have already mentioned before; read WP:PRIMARY. Ekdalian (talk) 08:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

but bro this is not primary source...This is a modern scholarly work done by experienced peoples on this field. 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

tell me difference between primary and secondary source first.............. and Government documents are not primary..even Government has told the truth..but I can't find any reason to deny that..maybe there are fools like you those who thinks themselves and their way of thinking as most authentic source 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Read WP:CIR! Considering your personal attacks (even calling me 'fool'), I shall no longer respond to your posts! You may go to any appropriate forum or ping/wait for other experienced editors! Ekdalian (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes, words don't fully capture the true meaning and intent behind them. It's possible that there are underlying messages that aren't immediately apparent. I believe government documents are more reliable sources, and this Wikipedia article seems misleading. Historically, Maratha Bargis invaded Bengal to loot wealth from the Tili community, which was notably prosperous even back then. There's also a historical ritual where if Bargis touched the Tilis, it was considered degrading for the Tilis. Additionally, Bhaskar Pandit, a prominent figure, was given Tili status in Bengal. The distinction between these groups is clear, so I urge you to reconsider and stop spreading misinformation in this caste-related article. 117.204.199.75 (talk) 06:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Tilis and Telis are different

@CharlesWain The neutrality of the article has been disrupted.. Tilis and Telis are totally different... wait let me tell According to Jumdagni mythology, the Tilis originally belonged to the Kshatriya caste but later transitioned to the Vaishya profession. According to Ramkrishna Mukherjee, some Bengali Telis are gradually converting their caste to Tili. However this claim "Some Bengali Telis are gradually converting their caste to Tili" has been refuted by the National Commission of Backward Classes , which has provided ample evidence debunking it. The Tili and Teli castes are fundamentally different, both in terms of social status and etymology. According to Brahmanasarbasya by Halayudh, the Tilis were historically recognized as one of the few non-Shudra castes in Bengal, standing alongside Brahmans. This highlights their elevated status within the traditional caste hierarchy.While some Telis may attempt to pass themselves off as Tilis to obscure their lower caste status, the two castes are distinct. This distinction is not just social but also etymological. The words "Tili" and "Teli" derive from different roots and carry separate meanings, further reinforcing their difference in both origin and identity. Proofs :- 1. https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddBH14.pdf?fbclid=IwY2xjawE5bHBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHebY3z4auhohney28AwdnEqqYVy-3oPCu9-RD7O96iBwCym6G-56yCMf9Q_aem_8K00XcNqPBfeatM2FN6BqQ

2.https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddWB-25.pdf

3.https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033?fbclid=IwY2xjawGB7Y9leHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHQLh86DoKBdi-XZwcZ6plWPLuMEZhpjmQU3GnBzO0ZiDpHureJaM8F1PfA_aem_Hf8aX4RKNdonmu6vTNRA5Q#?xywh=-1270%2C-25%2C4673%2C2768&cv=40 page 41-66 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

so @CharlesWain I ask you to review again........ as you are fluent in Bengali so I hope you will read siddhanta samudra and those NCBC Docs....and you will change the article... 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

contact me here :- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61555049747001 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This is my facebook id 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

NCBC documents are not contradicting what's written in the article. CharlesWain (talk) 19:37, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain It is contradicting....check carefully...ok....first ones were just the claims but the true findings are after that...and it has clearly mentioned that Tilis and Telis are different 117.204.201.189 (talk) 02:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain I request you to first read the NCBC documents properly and then edit......... till then don't revert.. because Tilis and Telis are totally different.. also you can refer to the Siddhant Samudra for More infos 117.241.234.210 (talk) 03:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Read WP: PRIMARY, WP:RAJ. You have to give quotation from reliable source here that supports your claim. CharlesWain (talk) 05:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I added sources wait let me give you but did you not read that NCBC doc completely?...and siddhanta samudra..first read and tell...NCBC has totally refuted that the tilis and telis are identical 117.194.229.212 (talk) 05:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain I’ve noticed that the Wikipedia article on the Tili community contains several inaccuracies. First and foremost, the heading is misleading. Tili people are not primarily agrarian; rather, they are a prosperous trading caste.

I’ve contributed well-sourced content to the list of notable Tili figures, but it seems that my edits have been removed. I’m curious about the reasoning behind this. Is there a bias against the Tili community?

For context, in the Bardhaman Parikrama, it is mentioned that "Tilis were the only caste that avoided agriculture." Notably, Tili individuals have made significant contributions to various fields: Pankaj Roy was Bengal's first national cricket captain, Subrata Roy is regarded as Bengal’s richest person, and Gostho Pal was the first captain of the national football team.

Tilis have also produced many influential zamindars and have historical claims to prominence, including connections to the Pala Empire. Despite this, there seems to be a trend of misinformation that undermines the reputation of the Tili caste. Atul Sur even recognized the Tili community as part of the Indo-European group.

I don’t understand why positive information about the Tili community is often deleted. While you hold a senior position, I hope you can recognize this issue and consider the facts I’ve presented.

I’m a student at NIT, and I aspire to one day own and correct the information on platforms like Wikipedia that misrepresents the Tili community. I’ve included a link to reliable sources that discuss the Tili caste in depth, which I hope you will review: Siddhanta Samudra, pages 41-68.

Historically, there has been an effort to diminish the significance of the Tili caste, yet they are regarded just below Brahmins in the social hierarchy. It’s also worth noting that Tili individuals are primarily found in Bardhaman and have migrated from there to other regions.

Lastly, regarding the spelling, it’s "Tili" or "Tilly," not "Tilli." There are three related castes: Til-Chasi/Tilli, Tili/Tili, and Teli, but there is often confusion between them. The Tili community may have a smaller population, but they are an educated and resilient group, comparable to the Khatris of Punjab.

I hope you’ll reconsider the information about the Tili community and work towards presenting a more accurate and respectful portrayal.

sources :- 1. https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033#

2.https://books.google.co.in/books?id=xYFu64r4ybgC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tili&f=false page 205

3.

https://archive.org/details/castepoliticsraj0000band/mode/2up?q= pages 104,112,115,153

Visvabharati Patrika,barsha.25,shraban-ashwin 1375 : Rai,sushil Ed. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive 40-47 ,there is a mention about a tili king named as chandraketu who established the shakti peeth and this was published by vishwa bharati patrika

Haraprasad Shastri Ed.2nd : Bondhyopadhyay, Brajendranath. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 361

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.265320/page/n65/mode/2up page 43-44 (It mentions that tilis are an indo-alpine caste)

https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.05838/page/495/mode/2up?q=tili page 496

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.534066/page/n51/mode/2up page 45 (although this is an old source but can be used)

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.98917/page/n599/mode/2up?q=tili page-11,22,24,571 (Dighapatia raj was also a Tili)

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.265163/page/n45/mode/2up page -25 (kristo das pal was a tili not teli)

Siddhanta samudra (part- V) [1310 [B. S.] 1903] | Endangered Archives Programme (bl.uk) page 41-68 can be used to write about history about the origin of ekadosh and dadosh

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.289649/page/n205/mode/2up page 124-155

https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.03853/page/n51/mode/2up page 41

https://archive.org/details/aclcpl000001223a531/page/252/mode/2up?q=tili+ 245 ,253 page

https://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.12344/page/n87/mode/2up?q=tili+ page 87 (another status of tili is "srimani")

dli.scoerat.11043westbengaldistricgazetters : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 695-696 117.241.239.40

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=3B5YAAAAMAAJ&q=rashik+krishna+mullick+tili&dq=rashik+krishna+mullick+tili&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi28cWymaSFAxXca_UHHcd3DWAQ6AF6BAgNEAI page 86

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.49487/page/n537/mode/2up?q=Tili page 511,521

https://bartamanpatrika.com/home?cid=16&id=493430

Life And Experiences Of A Bengali Chemist Vol. 1 : Ray, Prafulla Chandra : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive from here you can verify tili zamindaars list...and famous peoples like subrata roy-founder of sahara, pankaj roy-first national cricket captain from bengal,gostho pal is also a tili because kundu surname is confined among tilis only.........and a lot zamindaars were ther...please mention our famous peoples when writing

https://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.12688/page/n493/mode/2up?q= page 468 important it is defining tilis as general and elite traders

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.316371/page/n73/mode/2up?q=%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BF 224-225

Gayan Bharati,khanda.2,bhag.1 : Mukhopadhyay,pradhat Kumar Ed. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 540

https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=47&xywh=-1224%2C-223%2C4593%2C2882 page 41-68..this was published in 1901..this is not a raj era source

can siddhanta samudram be used..this was published on 1903..and this is not a raj era source :- https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=47&xywh=-1224%2C-223%2C4593%2C2882 117.241.239.40

117.194.229.212 (talk) 05:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain and my previous edit was properly sourced so kindly don't revert like this... I have cied more sources here...you can check them...so please kindly check them..as the neutrality has been disputed...and a this is a wrong depiction of the tili caste 117.194.229.212 (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Since Tilis are dissident telis, Tili and Teli aren't identical. No where in the article it's mentioned both are identical ! Is Siddhanta Samudra written post-1947? Is the writer a scholar on history? Is the source secondary? If not , please don't cite this source here again. Thank you.CharlesWain (talk) 06:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain Tilis and Telis are totally different..ok..so just simply write Tili.. why dissident telis?...just simply write Tili... and it NCBC is post 1947 and you should read that carefully.. 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I will again request you to give quotations from reliable sources.CharlesWain (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

but why dissident Teli?. 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

NCBC is reliable 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain so change dissident Teli to Tili ok? 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

No, we shall stick to what reliable sources say. Your personal opinion or POV is nothing but WP:OR! Ekdalian (talk) 10:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)