Talk:Tili (caste)

Title of the page

The name of the caste is TILI. It should be renamed from TILLI to TILI 206849 wiki (talk) 19:04, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

THIS CASTE NAME IS TILI OR EITHER TILY NOT Tilli

SPELLING EROR SHOULD BE FIXED IT IS TILI OR EITHER TILY NOT Tilli PHANTOM 097y (talk) 06:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The article title cannot be changed because "Tili" is currently a redirect to the article Dilijan. David notMD (talk) 09:22, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok can it be 'BENGALI Tili' instead of Tili? PHANTOM 097y (talk) 09:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I do not know anything about this topic, so cannot have an opinion on that being a better name or not. David notMD (talk) 09:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I KNOW THIS TOPIC AND I HAVE PROOFS AND REFRENCE WHICH CLAIM TILI CASTE AS A BENGALI TILI CASTE PHANTOM 097y (talk) 11:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done, as per naming convention! Ekdalian (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This was a better solution than renaming Bengali Tili. David notMD (talk) 15:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

yep PHANTOM 097y (talk) 16:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

REFRENCE

How I can add this REFRENCE properly 21 June 2024 (UTC)

TILI is a mercentile caste not agrarian

Ok so I have reliable REFRENCE which States Tili as a commercial/mercentile caste not AGRAGRIAN can someone change the word AGRAGRIAN please? I can provide refrence too PHANTOM 097y (talk) 00:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Please share reliable sources here along with url and page number. Ekdalian (talk) 09:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.03995/page/41/mode/1up?q=+Tili

Here in Page no 42 claims Tili as a commercia/mercentile caste

It is CALCUTTA UNIVERSITY REPORT PHANTOM 097y (talk) 13:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you please mention who is the (reliable) author of this source? Ekdalian (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Prafulla Chandra Ray (1861 – 1944) PHANTOM 097y (talk) 00:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It is obvious that it must be a Raj era source originally, which has been reprinted! Ekdalian (talk) 04:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=JAUdW9_iziAC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=Tili+caste+high+caste&source=bl&ots=1XlAYQ3Tdl&sig=ACfU3U1zAjj7DieYw-8c6kPd7qcnmK-0hA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6rs_J4rKHAxUW1zgGHa2bCsE4MhDoAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Tili%20caste%20high%20caste&f=false

Look at this book here dasgupta claim Tili as a High caste or high social group it is not raj era now you please use middle Ranking caste as a POV. PHANTOM 097y (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

PHANTOM 097y, the source is clearly talking about a particular household, not the Tili caste in general. Please stop acting like an obsessed WP:SPA. Ekdalian (talk) 09:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The source state that TILI households are high social standing please read the ref again if you are not satisfy with this I will provide you other reliable ref PHANTOM 097y (talk) 13:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The source is talking about a couple of Tili households, that too in a particular village. We cannot assume that this is applicable for the caste in general. I have read multiple reliable sources on castes, especially Bengali castes, but never came across any statement supporting that the Tilis enjoy high social status! Anyway, you may try to find reliable sources supporting your claim. Ekdalian (talk) 17:51, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok I will find another one PHANTOM 097y (talk) 01:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

MENTION

Ramkrishna Mukherjee where he mentioned Bengali Teli change their caste Teli to Tili but actually,if we see from Britishers original census we can see that TELI and Tili are separate and if we see the Bengali SCRIPTURES like chandipuran, mangalpuran, BRHAMAN HALIYUDH SHARVASIYA(this literature were from 15th-16th century) we can find Teli doesn't have connection to Tili.some modern historians confused with TELI which is seperate from Teli. I think his information is not a reliable one it is disputed actually. I have so many proofs (English Bengali both) WHICH states Tili and TELI is seperate caste there is no connection with each other PHANTOM 097y (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You have probably not yet understood our policies. The information is not only reliably sourced, but also attributed to the author. We have clearly mentioned that this is the opinion of the author! Ekdalian (talk) 17:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

In 495 page it is clearly mentioned that Tili is a high caste, that's why I told you Tili is a middle caste or not this is still debatable https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.05838 PHANTOM 097y (talk) 00:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, who is the reliable author here? I have provided two reliable sources categorizing them as a middle or intermediate caste. Moreover, according to all reliable sources, Bengal had only three higher castes; read Baidya for more information! Ekdalian (talk) 04:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It is a study work bruh PHANTOM 097y (talk) 08:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I can understand, but we need reliable authors in such articles. Ekdalian (talk) 08:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok I will find it soon 🙏 PHANTOM 097y (talk) 08:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

bro in some english documents it is ALSO mentioned that Kayastha and vaidya which is also called upper caste categories into middle caste and in some these two categories as upper caste this same situation happens to Tili caste.

I will do research on it and I will provide you reliable author with non-british Raj documents PHANTOM 097y (talk) 08:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

There has been variations everywhere,sometimes Bengali Brahmins were also called middle castes as they weren't considered true Brahmins by the Heartland's Brahmins. But traditionally there have been only three upper castes in Bengal Equivalent to each other. The Bhadralok. WatteryFire (talk) 01:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Nope the bhadralok can be anyone who is rich and elite,if a BRAHAMN person is a poor then he/she cannot be BRHAMAN.

Bruh but different peoples are different opinions in that time Kayasth and Vaidya considered as a NABASAKH caste i saw in a document WHICH is from British raj

Then they 2 do upwardment for their caste

Any caste become upper caste in WB but they have to become rich and educated that's it.

That's the thing which Kayastha and vaidya get success PHANTOM 097y (talk) 11:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

TILI is a middle Ranking caste this is the POV of gupta swarup

So there should be mentioned of it that according to gupta swarup TILI is a middle ranking CASTE. PHANTOM 097y (talk) 11:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Ramkrishna Mukherjee

Can I remove ramkrishna mukherjee's opinion because it is still debatable and I provide you some proofs that Tili aren't related to Teli In WB, Teli are kolus but Tili's don't have any status like that in past years and present too.

We should provide reliable proofs not Disputed opinions PHANTOM 097y (talk) 01:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

No sorry, you can't. The related statement cannot be removed since it is relevant and reliably sourced! Don't try to continuously push your caste agenda. Ekdalian (talk) 06:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any agenda I give Wikipedia contribution and I don't push my caste ok! My aim Is to provide you all proper knowledge PHANTOM 097y (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Middle Ranking

Ok, Tili is a middle ranking caste as per the pov of gupta,swarup it's not for all So,the term middle ranking should be in the history and origin PHANTOM 097y (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

No, almost all reliable sources mention the same. I have cited two, one calling them middle ranking, another calling them intermediate meaning the same. Morover, this is how other Bengali caste articles look (lede)! A separate section is required for varna status only. Ekdalian (talk) 05:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Nope no requirement of varna section

Bro I have many research work which state Tili as a High caste in some articles also I see that so,but the problem is they all are research work 😕 PHANTOM 097y (talk) 09:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Now you know that you need to find modern scholarly work by reliable authors! Ekdalian (talk) 15:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes 🙌

For some reason my research gone very slowly because of my academics otherwise I will provide you RELIABLE authors PHANTOM 097y (talk) 16:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, great! Carry on. Ekdalian (talk) 17:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Bruh I also see that intermediate that's not the reliable source I think

If you told this then I think yesterday I was provided you a source that state Tili is a high caste

You also see that source PHANTOM 097y (talk) 01:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Tili Caste Government Document Acceptability

@Ekdalian Clearly, you've got a personal vendetta against the Tili caste, which is fascinating considering I've backed everything with credible government documents and scholarly works based on primary sources. But hey, maybe in your world, facts are just inconvenient obstacles to your narrative. It's amusing how you casually dismiss government documents as false—are you the self-appointed encyclopedia of truth now? It's laughable that you can't handle the reality that the Tili community is one of the most powerful in Bengal. But don't worry, stay cozy in your bubble. Meanwhile, those government documents you so easily brush off have already exposed the truth. Might want to grab some Burnol—sounds like you're going to need it.

Link of NCBC document :- 1. https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddBH14.pdf?fbclid=IwY2xjawE5bHBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHebY3z4auhohney28AwdnEqqYVy-3oPCu9-RD7O96iBwCym6G-56yCMf9Q_aem_8K00XcNqPBfeatM2FN6BqQ

2.https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddWB-25.pdf

It has been clearly established that Tilis belong to the Upper Caste, and the false OBC status has been rightly rejected. This makes me wonder if your hostility toward this community stems from a personal grievance. Perhaps you were denied financial assistance by Tilis who saw through your intentions, or maybe a girl from this community rejected you. It’s possible they didn’t invite you to participate in a puja at their home. Just because you live in a particular place doesn’t give you the right to write things based on your biased perceptions. The NCBC has thoroughly debunked the unfounded theory that Tilis converted from Telis, basing their decision on modern scholarly research and primary sources. If you lack accurate knowledge about a caste, you should refrain from using your perceptions to demean them. And NCBC is much more credible than you. Please either update the article about the Tili community with accurate information or consider removing it altogether. It's better for you to avoid spreading misinformation. 2409:40E1:10B4:8E6C:C9BF:13FE:8BDF:8206 (talk) 2409:40E1:10B4:8E6C:C9BF:13FE:8BDF:8206 (talk) 07:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks are treated seriously here in Wikipedia! All the socks have been blocked! Have you read and understood the edit summary? I have clearly mentioned the reason for revert. Ekdalian (talk) 08:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

yes I read the edit summary..you didn't even value the Government document..which is much more reliable.... 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

And yet, you're doing exactly what you criticize a particular community for. It seems I just learned this behavior from you. You're so narrow-minded that you can't even comprehend government documents properly. I can tell you're shaken after reading those official papers. I've even seen you personally attack Tilis on a Quora page. 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, we don't accept primary sources in caste articles; I have already mentioned before; read WP:PRIMARY. Ekdalian (talk) 08:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

but bro this is not primary source...This is a modern scholarly work done by experienced peoples on this field. 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

tell me difference between primary and secondary source first.............. and Government documents are not primary..even Government has told the truth..but I can't find any reason to deny that..maybe there are fools like you those who thinks themselves and their way of thinking as most authentic source 117.204.193.88 (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Read WP:CIR! Considering your personal attacks (even calling me 'fool'), I shall no longer respond to your posts! You may go to any appropriate forum or ping/wait for other experienced editors! Ekdalian (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes, words don't fully capture the true meaning and intent behind them. It's possible that there are underlying messages that aren't immediately apparent. I believe government documents are more reliable sources, and this Wikipedia article seems misleading. Historically, Maratha Bargis invaded Bengal to loot wealth from the Tili community, which was notably prosperous even back then. There's also a historical ritual where if Bargis touched the Tilis, it was considered degrading for the Tilis. Additionally, Bhaskar Pandit, a prominent figure, was given Tili status in Bengal. The distinction between these groups is clear, so I urge you to reconsider and stop spreading misinformation in this caste-related article. 117.204.199.75 (talk) 06:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Tilis and Telis are different

@CharlesWain The neutrality of the article has been disrupted.. Tilis and Telis are totally different... wait let me tell According to Jumdagni mythology, the Tilis originally belonged to the Kshatriya caste but later transitioned to the Vaishya profession. According to Ramkrishna Mukherjee, some Bengali Telis are gradually converting their caste to Tili. However this claim "Some Bengali Telis are gradually converting their caste to Tili" has been refuted by the National Commission of Backward Classes , which has provided ample evidence debunking it. The Tili and Teli castes are fundamentally different, both in terms of social status and etymology. According to Brahmanasarbasya by Halayudh, the Tilis were historically recognized as one of the few non-Shudra castes in Bengal, standing alongside Brahmans. This highlights their elevated status within the traditional caste hierarchy.While some Telis may attempt to pass themselves off as Tilis to obscure their lower caste status, the two castes are distinct. This distinction is not just social but also etymological. The words "Tili" and "Teli" derive from different roots and carry separate meanings, further reinforcing their difference in both origin and identity. Proofs :- 1. https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddBH14.pdf?fbclid=IwY2xjawE5bHBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHebY3z4auhohney28AwdnEqqYVy-3oPCu9-RD7O96iBwCym6G-56yCMf9Q_aem_8K00XcNqPBfeatM2FN6BqQ

2.https://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/AddWB-25.pdf

3.https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033?fbclid=IwY2xjawGB7Y9leHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHQLh86DoKBdi-XZwcZ6plWPLuMEZhpjmQU3GnBzO0ZiDpHureJaM8F1PfA_aem_Hf8aX4RKNdonmu6vTNRA5Q#?xywh=-1270%2C-25%2C4673%2C2768&cv=40 page 41-66 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

so @CharlesWain I ask you to review again........ as you are fluent in Bengali so I hope you will read siddhanta samudra and those NCBC Docs....and you will change the article... 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

contact me here :- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61555049747001 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This is my facebook id 117.204.195.35 (talk) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

NCBC documents are not contradicting what's written in the article. CharlesWain (talk) 19:37, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain It is contradicting....check carefully...ok....first ones were just the claims but the true findings are after that...and it has clearly mentioned that Tilis and Telis are different 117.204.201.189 (talk) 02:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain I request you to first read the NCBC documents properly and then edit......... till then don't revert.. because Tilis and Telis are totally different.. also you can refer to the Siddhant Samudra for More infos 117.241.234.210 (talk) 03:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Read WP: PRIMARY, WP:RAJ. You have to give quotation from reliable source here that supports your claim. CharlesWain (talk) 05:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I added sources wait let me give you but did you not read that NCBC doc completely?...and siddhanta samudra..first read and tell...NCBC has totally refuted that the tilis and telis are identical 117.194.229.212 (talk) 05:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain I’ve noticed that the Wikipedia article on the Tili community contains several inaccuracies. First and foremost, the heading is misleading. Tili people are not primarily agrarian; rather, they are a prosperous trading caste.

I’ve contributed well-sourced content to the list of notable Tili figures, but it seems that my edits have been removed. I’m curious about the reasoning behind this. Is there a bias against the Tili community?

For context, in the Bardhaman Parikrama, it is mentioned that "Tilis were the only caste that avoided agriculture." Notably, Tili individuals have made significant contributions to various fields: Pankaj Roy was Bengal's first national cricket captain, Subrata Roy is regarded as Bengal’s richest person, and Gostho Pal was the first captain of the national football team.

Tilis have also produced many influential zamindars and have historical claims to prominence, including connections to the Pala Empire. Despite this, there seems to be a trend of misinformation that undermines the reputation of the Tili caste. Atul Sur even recognized the Tili community as part of the Indo-European group.

I don’t understand why positive information about the Tili community is often deleted. While you hold a senior position, I hope you can recognize this issue and consider the facts I’ve presented.

I’m a student at NIT, and I aspire to one day own and correct the information on platforms like Wikipedia that misrepresents the Tili community. I’ve included a link to reliable sources that discuss the Tili caste in depth, which I hope you will review: Siddhanta Samudra, pages 41-68.

Historically, there has been an effort to diminish the significance of the Tili caste, yet they are regarded just below Brahmins in the social hierarchy. It’s also worth noting that Tili individuals are primarily found in Bardhaman and have migrated from there to other regions.

Lastly, regarding the spelling, it’s "Tili" or "Tilly," not "Tilli." There are three related castes: Til-Chasi/Tilli, Tili/Tili, and Teli, but there is often confusion between them. The Tili community may have a smaller population, but they are an educated and resilient group, comparable to the Khatris of Punjab.

I hope you’ll reconsider the information about the Tili community and work towards presenting a more accurate and respectful portrayal.

sources :- 1. https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033#

2.https://books.google.co.in/books?id=xYFu64r4ybgC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tili&f=false page 205

3.

https://archive.org/details/castepoliticsraj0000band/mode/2up?q= pages 104,112,115,153

Visvabharati Patrika,barsha.25,shraban-ashwin 1375 : Rai,sushil Ed. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive 40-47 ,there is a mention about a tili king named as chandraketu who established the shakti peeth and this was published by vishwa bharati patrika

Haraprasad Shastri Ed.2nd : Bondhyopadhyay, Brajendranath. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 361

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.265320/page/n65/mode/2up page 43-44 (It mentions that tilis are an indo-alpine caste)

https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.05838/page/495/mode/2up?q=tili page 496

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.534066/page/n51/mode/2up page 45 (although this is an old source but can be used)

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.98917/page/n599/mode/2up?q=tili page-11,22,24,571 (Dighapatia raj was also a Tili)

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.265163/page/n45/mode/2up page -25 (kristo das pal was a tili not teli)

Siddhanta samudra (part- V) [1310 [B. S.] 1903] | Endangered Archives Programme (bl.uk) page 41-68 can be used to write about history about the origin of ekadosh and dadosh

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.289649/page/n205/mode/2up page 124-155

https://archive.org/details/dli.calcutta.03853/page/n51/mode/2up page 41

https://archive.org/details/aclcpl000001223a531/page/252/mode/2up?q=tili+ 245 ,253 page

https://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.12344/page/n87/mode/2up?q=tili+ page 87 (another status of tili is "srimani")

dli.scoerat.11043westbengaldistricgazetters : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 695-696 117.241.239.40

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=3B5YAAAAMAAJ&q=rashik+krishna+mullick+tili&dq=rashik+krishna+mullick+tili&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi28cWymaSFAxXca_UHHcd3DWAQ6AF6BAgNEAI page 86

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.49487/page/n537/mode/2up?q=Tili page 511,521

https://bartamanpatrika.com/home?cid=16&id=493430

Life And Experiences Of A Bengali Chemist Vol. 1 : Ray, Prafulla Chandra : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive from here you can verify tili zamindaars list...and famous peoples like subrata roy-founder of sahara, pankaj roy-first national cricket captain from bengal,gostho pal is also a tili because kundu surname is confined among tilis only.........and a lot zamindaars were ther...please mention our famous peoples when writing

https://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.12688/page/n493/mode/2up?q= page 468 important it is defining tilis as general and elite traders

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.316371/page/n73/mode/2up?q=%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%B2%E0%A6%BF 224-225

Gayan Bharati,khanda.2,bhag.1 : Mukhopadhyay,pradhat Kumar Ed. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 540

https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=47&xywh=-1224%2C-223%2C4593%2C2882 page 41-68..this was published in 1901..this is not a raj era source

can siddhanta samudram be used..this was published on 1903..and this is not a raj era source :- https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-1033#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=47&xywh=-1224%2C-223%2C4593%2C2882 117.241.239.40

117.194.229.212 (talk) 05:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain and my previous edit was properly sourced so kindly don't revert like this... I have cied more sources here...you can check them...so please kindly check them..as the neutrality has been disputed...and a this is a wrong depiction of the tili caste 117.194.229.212 (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Since Tilis are dissident telis, Tili and Teli aren't identical. No where in the article it's mentioned both are identical ! Is Siddhanta Samudra written post-1947? Is the writer a scholar on history? Is the source secondary? If not , please don't cite this source here again. Thank you.CharlesWain (talk) 06:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain Tilis and Telis are totally different..ok..so just simply write Tili.. why dissident telis?...just simply write Tili... and it NCBC is post 1947 and you should read that carefully.. 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I will again request you to give quotations from reliable sources.CharlesWain (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

but why dissident Teli?. 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

NCBC is reliable 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain so change dissident Teli to Tili ok? 2409:40E1:100B:58B3:193A:111A:17E5:70D8 (talk) 06:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

No, we shall stick to what reliable sources say. Your personal opinion or POV is nothing but WP:OR! Ekdalian (talk) 10:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Some individuals may be misrepresenting information in this article

@Amortias Hi Admin! I recently made an edit to the Tili caste article, carefully adding reliable sources to improve the article's accuracy and ensure it meets content standards. My contributions are based on credible references and are thoroughly documented.

However, previous edits have often been reverted by users like @Ekdalian and @CharlesWain, potentially due to a limited understanding of the Tili caste’s historical and cultural context. Given this recurring issue, I’m concerned that the recent improvements may again be undone without substantive discussion or valid grounds.

Could you consider applying a high-level protection to this page to prevent disruptive reversions? This will allow a more constructive dialogue and consensus-building around verified information. Thank you for your assistance in maintaining the integrity of the article. 2409:40E1:10BC:E24D:314C:E3D8:D012:CF8E (talk) 03:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Im not going to protect the article. The issue here is a content dispute. Editors have reverted you the requirement is now on you to gain consensus for your edit. Youv'e several options available to you but starting a discussion on the talk page here is your best starting point. You must however be aware that what is included here is what there is consensus for being included not what is determined as "correct" by any individual or group outside of Wikipedia.

There appears to be discontent about the references you have used to back up your claims, you should discuss why these references are more reliable than the ones already there that go against what you want to write. Show evidence of how these references are reliable or find ones that are more reliable. The articles you are citing may back you up but that doesn't mean they meet the level of scrutiny and editorial oversight required to be used here. Please ensure you've read Wikipedia:Reliable sources and if there is any chance it might nor meet the criteria here or there's any disagreement here then you can discuss it here or at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, the discussion however cannot be guaranteed to work in your favor but this is the way things work here. We work in a collaborative environment where consensus (backed up by evidence) is how we come to a decision on what is included, if the consensus goes against you or not. If the consensus goes against you it doesn't mean your wrong it may just be there's not enough evidence to prove it to the level we need for inclusion here. Amortias (T)(C) 04:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Tili vs Teli and Varna of Tili

@CharlesWain here is the reference :- https://books.google.co.in/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=qBhWAAAAYAAJ&dq=People+of+India:+West+Bengal,+Volume+43,+Part+2&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=tili The source is reliable, and I encourage you to consider this information. It clearly states that the word 'Tili' is derived from 'Tula' and describes the Tili community as historically involved in trade. My edit is thoroughly sourced, so please update it as soon as possible. 117.241.234.168 (talk) 05:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Tilis and Telis are different 117.241.234.168 (talk) 05:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

KS Sing isn't considered a reliable source in caste articles.CharlesWain (talk) 08:03, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, how it should be the article:------ Tili Caste

For the drum stick used on a dhol, see tihli.

Tili

Regions with significant populations
• India
Bihar	17,579 (0.0134% of the population of Bihar)
Religion
Hinduism

Tili is a distinguished Bengali Hindu upper-caste community, recognized as an advanced Indo-Alpine, landowning-cum-mercantile group originating from Bardhaman. Tilis are predominantly situated in the Rarh region of West Bengal and parts of Bihar, India. The Tili community holds a prominent position in trade and regional heritage.

History and origin

Members of the Tili community predominantly speak Bengali and Angika. Today, they are largely concentrated in the districts of Burdwan, Bankura, Hooghly, and Midnapore in West Bengal, along with Bhagalpur and Banka in Bihar.

The Tilis are historically regarded as descendants of the Pala dynasty, known for its royal heritage and cultural contributions. Scholar Harekrishna Mukherjee classified them as a Vanik (merchant) community, highlighting their traditional involvement in trade and commerce. Additionally, Dharmananda Mahabharati confirmed their Vaishya (merchant) status, dispelling the false misconception that the Tili community belongs to the Nabasakha caste. According to Jumdagni mythology, the Tili community is originally of Kshatriya lineage but has been relegated to a Vaishya status over time. Tilis trace their name back to the Sanskrit word 'Tula,' which translates to 'Balance' in English.

Nikhilkanta Roy stated that the Tili and Teli communities are distinct, with the similarity in pronunciation often leading to confusion. He highlighted that the Tili community is of a higher caste than the Teli community. Roy explained that the misinterpretation of these two communities as the same was a result of this pronunciation similarity. He also presented several pieces of evidence to support the distinction between the two groups.

In the sixteenth century, the Tilis were primarily engaged in trade, landholding, moneylending, and a form of land-based cultivation where they owned the land but employed farmers and servants for the actual cultivation, as evidenced by historical records and Chandimangalkavya. In south-western Bengal, the Tilis appeared to have become traders. In the nineteenth century, the Tilis had become one of the foremost mercantile communities of Bengal. The Rays of Bhagyakul, the Nandis of Kasimbazar (Murshidabad), the Kundu Chowdhuris of Mahiari (Howrah), De Chowdhuris of Ranaghat gained affluence through trade and moneylendling, and became landholders. The Pal Chaudhuris of Ranaghat (Nadia) ran indigo factories. They became a major beneficiary of the economic changes made by the British government and British commercial interests who had converted Bengal into a vast market ready to supply raw materials to England.

King Bhopal of Ketugram, a notable figure from this community, established the Bahulaxmi Temple, one of the 51 sacred Shakti Peethas believed to be formed from the body parts of Goddess Durga. A contingent of Maratha invaders, led by Bhaskar Pandit, settled in Itachuna, Hooghly, where they established the Itachuna Rajbari. Over time, they assimilated into the Tili caste, adopting its customs and way of life. Their presence significantly improved the region's socio-economic conditions. In a remarkable act of generosity during the devastating famine of the 1770s, Bhaskar Pandit donated 100,000 maunds of paddy, providing much-needed relief to the local population.

Social status

The Tili caste is classified as a Forward or General Caste, meaning they do not qualify for the reservation benefits provided to Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes, and Other Backward Classes under the Indian government's policies. In 1999, the National Commission for Backward Classes (NCBC) recognized the Tili as a socially and economically advanced trading caste. The NCBC also refuted various myths surrounding the Tili community, clarifying that they are distinct from the Teli community and have a defined Varna within the Hindu caste system.

References

117.204.192.201 (talk) 20:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ekdalian I was not promoting the caste...I just added proper sources... and you can't call them poorly sourced... and you have to change the teli part and the social status part and the nabasakh part...because I added proper sources......... 117.194.225.185 (talk) 06:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Although in Burdwan,Bankura Rarh Region Brahman>Tili>Kayastha>Aguri 117.194.225.185 (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ekdalian and you can't call adding proper source as "Caste Promotion"........Wiki contains false infos about the Tili caste... I am not promoting the caste...I am adding proper sources 117.194.225.185 (talk) 06:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You abused multiple accounts, and now started editing as an IP. I have reviewed your sources; you have cited all unreliable sources (including some Bengali ones) and also engaged in WP:OR / WP:SYN for all your content meant for caste promotion! We don't accept such sources in caste articles. Achieve consensus among experienced editors on caste; no one would support you. You are not supposed to change the consensus version of the article citing such poor sources here; read WP:CONSENSUS! Ekdalian (talk) 06:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

But their were sources like Harekrishna Mukherjee.. 117.194.225.185 (talk) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ekdalian:} If you suspect sockpuppetry, you can try reporting the IP at SPI. I haven't edited this article in a while but reviewing the history makes it clear that it needs to be protected under WP:GSCASTE.Ratnahastin (talk) 09:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain Read the sources and add infos accordingly 117.194.225.185 (talk) 10:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ekdalian can we use this as Source : - https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Inclusion_and_Exclusion_in_Local_Governa/DsDOrvROzPEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=tili+caste&pg=PA117&printsec=frontcover 116 , 117, 123 , 130 117.204.197.251 (talk) 04:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The source talks about a particular village only. Ekdalian (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

ok but telis and tilis are different and it is also disputed if tilis are nabasakh or vaishya so you have to change this...and Government document has mentioned Tilis as an upper caste and advanced caste...actually all the confusions are because of pronounciation error..I am not asking you to add siddhanta samudra but you check that atleast once you will get an insight about the tili caste which is kind of accurate..with little disputes 117.204.206.173 (talk) 11:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ekdalian I can remember even you deleted the names of famous persons of the Tili community...I cited sources too... and tilis and telis are totally different..ethinicity wise, genetically , profession wise......this wiki article is giving wrong infos about tilis..becuase in brahmana sharbasya by halayudh we get the name of tilis where he is mentioned as non-shudra upper caste 117.204.206.173 (talk) 11:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:OR, again! The article says what exactly reliable sources state. Ekdalian (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

but halayudh mentioned it in his brahmana sharbasya book! 117.204.207.250 (talk) 07:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

"Indo-Alpine landowning-cum-mercantile group" [1] - This is getting ridiculous now. Ratnahastin (talk) 09:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Tili vs Teli and Tili's Nabasakha Status Disputed

Nikhilkanta Roy stated that the Tili and Teli communities are distinct, with the similarity in pronunciation often leading to confusion. He highlighted that the Tili community is of a higher caste than the Teli community. Roy explained that the misinterpretation of these two communities as the same was a result of this pronunciation similarity. He also presented several pieces of evidence to support the distinction between the two groups. Harekrishna Mukherjee classified them as a Vanik (merchant) community, highlighting their traditional involvement in trade and commerce.Additionally, Dharmananda Mahabharati confirmed their Vaishya (merchant) status, dispelling the false misconception that the Tili community belongs to the Nabasakha caste. 117.214.192.213 (talk) 09:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

So tilis and telis are different castes and Tilis are not Nabaskah so either don't mention this or remove this disputed things @Ekdalian @charlesWain 117.214.192.213 (talk) 09:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources shared bring nothing new to the table! Though we prefer English WP:RS, still I have gone through your sources and found nothing new. Moreover, such snippet views without context are not considered in caste articles! Please try to find reliable English sources by modern scholars if you want to prove your point. I would like to reiterate that our current article states exactly what reliable sources say. Ekdalian (talk) 18:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

so ok...will english articles be accepted ? 117.214.194.214 (talk) 03:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Reliable and verifiable sources will obviously be accepted as per our policies. Ekdalian (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Telis have been identifying themselves as Tilis, whereas Kolus have been identifying themselves as Telis. So this is the case of upward mobility of two castes. "Teli, Kolu" is now OBCOBC B 45, but Tili is not. CharlesWain (talk) 06:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No, Nikhilkanta Roy clearly stated that the Tili and Teli communities are distinct, with the similarity in pronunciation often leading to confusion. He emphasized that the Tili community belongs to a higher caste compared to the Teli community. Roy attributed the widespread misinterpretation of these two groups as being the same to their phonetic resemblance. He also provided substantial evidence to underline the distinction between the two.

Unfortunately, much of the existing research on the Tili caste appears flawed due to this misunderstanding. While I don't have access to many modern scholarly works addressing this issue, it’s evident that many studies simply assume the two communities are identical because of the pronunciation similarity. It's worth noting that "Teli" itself is not even a caste in Bengal but corresponds to the "Kolu" community.

Dharmananda Mahabharati further confirmed that Tilis and Telis are entirely different, both in terms of social status and anthropological characteristics. The Tili community, particularly in the Rarh region, has historically been one of the foremost non-Brahmin castes and prominent landowners. This legacy has been overlooked by modern scholarship, which has often shown ignorance about the actual history of the Tili caste.

I strongly believe that the authentic history of the Tili community deserves to be revealed. To ensure this, I plan to conduct thorough and comprehensive research on the Tili caste and its legacy, using reliable evidence and methodologies. This will include revisiting historical records, analyzing anthropological data, and consulting with experts to establish an accurate narrative.

Once this work is complete, I will also work towards updating platforms like Wikipedia to reflect the truth. This will help correct existing misconceptions and ensure that the Tili community's history and contributions are properly recognized in academic and public domains. My aim is to accomplish this within the next seven years. It’s time to restore the rightful legacy of the Tilis. 117.241.239.83 (talk) 12:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

You may do your research, but only scholars' opinions matter here. Dharmananda Mahabharati isn't reliable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned. CharlesWain (talk) 13:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Yaay so I shall seek help to modern scholars then! 117.241.239.83 (talk) 13:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

but yaay he cited all reliable sources in his book....but as that was all raj era source can't be used 117.241.239.83 (talk) 14:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain check this page 33 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.377186/page/n41/mode/2up?q= It is mentioned that the Tilis derived their name from Tula, and therefore, they should not be confused with Telis. To maintain neutrality, it would be appropriate to remove references to Telis, as this confusion appears to stem from a pronunciation error made by foreigners. This misassociation has caused significant issues for the community. Ethnically, by surname and gotra, the Tilis are similar to Khatris, but the ongoing confusion between 'Tili' and 'Teli' continues to create unnecessary problems.

Even government documents from the NCBC (National Commission for Backward Classes) affirm that Tilis are an advanced trading caste and belong to the General category. It is unclear why such official documentation cannot be used as a reliable source. The confusion among many modern scholars between Tili and Teli likely stems from a lack of deeper research. Had they made even a modest effort to understand the Tilis, the rich history of the Tili community would have been revealed, further solidifying their distinct identity. 117.214.80.236 (talk) 08:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Read WP:RS, WP:SECONDARY, WP:HISTRSCharlesWain (talk) 09:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain S. A. Mitra serves as the Superintendent of Census Operations and Joint Development Commissioner of West Bengal, and the publisher is the West Bengal Government Press. Therefore, I believe this source satisfies all the conditions for reliability. Could you confirm if there are any shortcomings? Identifying them would help me refine my approach to finding better sources in the future. 117.214.80.236 (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain see the details of this source - https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/The_Tribes_and_Castes_of_West_Bengal/2bTUAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0&bsq=tili%20caste%20Tula 117.214.80.236 (talk) 09:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain As discussed, could you please add Raja Dayaram Roy? I'm not entirely sure what needs to be included. 117.214.80.236 (talk) 09:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain বাংলা নিবন্ধগুলো কেন ব্যবহৃত হয় না, যখন তারা যথেষ্ট নির্ভরযোগ্য? এই বিষয়টি বাংলার জাতিগত ব্যবস্থা নিয়ে, এবং তাই বাংলা নিবন্ধ এবং বইগুলোই আরও বিশ্বাসযোগ্য হওয়া উচিত। তাহলে কেন আমরা এমন একটি গুরুত্বপূর্ণ বিষয় নিয়ে ইংরেজি নিবন্ধের উপর নির্ভর করতে হবে? 117.214.80.236 (talk) 10:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain@EkdalianI plan to make minor changes, but nothing major. Please consider this approach. Additionally, I will ensure sources are properly cited since 'Tili' and 'Teli' are distinct terms, and we should avoid creating any confusion, especially on Wikipedia. Therefore, I kindly ask you to review carefully before deciding to revert. 117.204.199.207 (talk) 11:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@CharlesWain@Ekdalian I changed almost nothing but I expanded the article with minor changes 117.204.199.207 (talk) 17:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Tili Caste Article Discussion on Critical Topics

@Ekdalian did you even checked the sources?...I cited all reliable sources.. and I expanded the article.. so kindly reconsider this :- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tili_(caste)&oldid=1258593480 @CharlesWain you too check please...this time I added inline citation.. and each and everypart was properly sourced so check it again please @Ekdalian 117.204.199.207 (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ekdalian Why do you always revert my edits without even checking the sources or the content I’ve added? Please take a moment to review them; you’ll see that everything is properly sourced and adheres to Wikipedia’s standards. I haven’t included anything based on my personal opinion—every detail aligns with the guidelines for reliability and verifiability. @CharlesWain 117.204.199.207 (talk) 18:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I changed nothing but expanded the article @Ekdalian ,wait for @CharlesWain he has read about the tili caste..and if he finds anything wrong he will change that part. 117.204.199.207 (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I have nothing to discuss (waste time) with an obvious sock, who is here only to promote their own caste! Ekdalian (talk) 06:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

No, you're not even looking at what I wrote. I’ve only added information from reliable sources. It’s not my personal opinion—I’ve just included what’s written in the book. @Ekdalian 117.241.233.186 (talk) 06:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

some portion change request

@CharlesWain Hi, regarding the social status section, I noticed that I added the portions of NCBC there, and I plan to include them here as well. Could you confirm if I can add that or not?

Also, I want to clarify that Tilis and Telis are different. You mentioned that by the 19th century, Telis became Tilis, but that is incorrect. In fact, references to Tilis can be found in the Brihaddharma Purana, which dates back hundreds of years before the 19th century. This distinction is evident even with basic common sense, as Tilis and Telis are clearly separate groups.

Please verify this information carefully, and don’t forget to include the part about Roy of Bhagyakul. 117.241.233.186 (talk) 07:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Your sources are unreliable and not supporting your POV that you are persistently trying to include from multiple IPs. You're wasting our time by making us repeat same thing over and over again.CharlesWain (talk) 08:59, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

check that...Tula part and the til part 117.241.233.186 (talk) 09:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC)