Talk:Tiftarea Academy

Edit warring

Hfletcher1, a WP:SPA (likely 40.132.14.66) and Bonadea are engaged in an edit war over the assertion that the school is or was a segregation academy. When two points are recognized here, this can stop, else we'll need to lock the page.

Tiftarea meets the definition of seg academy, a school founded between 1954 and 1976 with the intent to limit enrollment by race. This assertion is supported by reference. The assertion most certainly belongs in the article. The school is not currently a segregation academy, therefore the use of present tense of to be is subject to argument, as Bill Clinton once made.

There is an employee of Tiftarea, the Director of Development & Marketing, with a similar name. This leads me to believe there is a WP:COI factor in this discussion as well . Rhadow (talk) 17:05, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

I suppose you could technically call it an "edit war" even though it amounts to one edit a month :-) Note that a number of other editors have also restored the sourced information when it has been removed, mainly by various IPs. Hfletcher1 has self-identified as having a COI, in this edit summary. They have never reacted to the messages they have received on their user talk page. --bonadea contributions talk 17:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I am trying to update our school page. We are not a segregation academy. We are an Equal Opportunity institution. This is damaging to our reputation and moreover may make some of our current students feel uncomfortable. Tiftarea Academy has always operated under an equal opportunity statement. I'm honestly not very well versed in how to edit on Wikipedia so I apologize if I have broken any rules. However, I ask you to please take a look at this. Hfletcher1 (talk) 18:30, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

@Hfletcher1: - there are sources in the article that support the claim that the school is a segregation academy, or at least that it has been one. There are no sources that support the claim that it has ceased to be one - can you provide any reliable independent sources for that information? If the situation has changed, it would still not be appropriate to remove the information about the school's history, but of course it would not make sense to provide incorrect information about the current situation either.

As an employee and representative of the school, you should not edit the article directly. Remember that it is not "your school page", but an encyclopedia article about the school. You can use the template {{request edit}} - just copy that code, including the curly brackets, and place it here on this talk page, and your requested changes below, including any sources for your information. Regards, --bonadea contributions talk 18:46, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your prompt response! What kind of sources would you need? We have our Equal Opportunity Statement on all our literature. Also, I hate that it was classified as an "edit war!" You seem so nice, hate that we were "at war."

Hfletcher1 (talk) 19:01, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

I was finally able to access the article sited. Here is the only reference to Tiftarea, "Bill Bodenheimer, principal of the private Tiftarea Academy in TyTy and a member of the Georgia Association of Independent Schools, said his institution has attempted to keep the race issue separate from the school's announced goal of quality education. "Nowhere in our charter will you find mention of race, color, creed, or national origin. Race is not the issue, but everyone keeps trying to bring it into the picture." he said. He admits, however, there are no blacks attending the academy and that their absence from his school and others like it around the state could enter into debates on the bill." So, with this...I don't see that the school could be labeled a segregation academy at all. Labeling an institution as such just because of the time period it was founded seems irresponsible. The author does not make mention of it being a segregation academy, either. Hfletcher1 (talk) 19:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi there, just following up again. Hope you saw my previous 2 messages. I urge you to read the source cited from Mike Bowler, which states "in his OPINION these are seg academies. Additional note: not all of these are seg academies." Hfletcher1 (talk) 13:59, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

{{request edit}} The only reference to Tiftarea Academy in the article cited is as follows: "Bill Bodenheimer, principal of the private Tiftarea Academy in TyTy and a member of the Georgia Association of Independent Schools, said his institution has attempted to keep the race issue separate from the school's announced goal of quality education. "Nowhere in our charter will you find mention of race, color, creed, or national origin. Race is not the issue, but everyone keeps trying to bring it into the picture." he said. He admits, however, there are no blacks attending the academy and that their absence from his school and others like it around the state could enter into debates on the bill." The author himself does not even label the school as such. Furthermore, the school works under an Equal Opportunity Statement which can be seen here: "Tiftarea Academy admits students of any race, color, national or ethnic origin to all the rights, privileges, programs, and activities generally accorded or made available to students at the school. Tiftarea Academy does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, national or ethnic origin in the administration of its educational policies, athletics, or other school-administered programs." This statement is listed on their website and all admission applications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hfletcher1 (talk • contribs)

• I've posted about this discussion at WT:WikiProject Schools — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 18:03, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
  • It seems clear that Hfletcher1 doesn't understand what an encyclopedia is. To clarify, we do not write about the subject, we write about what others have written about in reliable secondary sources. A "fact" sourced to the principal's statement isn't a fact at all. It is simply the non-expert opinion of someone with a conflict of interest. No way that belongs in the article. The supposition that the school no longer is a segragation academy has no bearing on the fact that it was founded as one. That will stay in the article no matter what. We can add stats from NCES to show it no longer is, we could quote a reliable published secondary source stating it no longer is, but we will never ever stop saying it was. John from Idegon (talk) 21:16, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I support John from Idegon's reasoning above. I found only 3 articles in a Newspapers.com search referring to Tiftarea Academy that are not sports reports:

• "140 in State: Private Academies Say They'll Survive". The Atlanta Constitution. 1973-07-02. p. 6. Retrieved 2019-10-10.
• "Fewer Kids, Few Woes Mark Opening of School". The Atlanta Constitution. 1973-08-28. p. 1. Retrieved 2019-10-10. and "...Fewer kids, woes (part 2)". The Atlanta Constitution. 1973-08-28. p. 14. Retrieved 2019-10-10.
• "Private Schools Discount Report: Public Schools Gain Pupils?". The Atlanta Constitution. 1975-04-27. p. 54. Retrieved 2019-10-10.

Facts changed in this article must be sourced to reliable secondary sources. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 02:25, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Then how about saying it is not considered a segregation academy anymore? The school is a 501(c)3. I would like you to go in and read Mike Bowler's entire article and you will see he doesn't even credit it as a "segregation academy." Only talks about the time period it was founded within. The school currently gives 13% of scholarship money to minorities. Classifying it as a segregation academy and having that come up as the first thing viewers see when they Google the school is misguided, wrong, and ridiculous. The school clearly operates under an Equal Opportunity Statement, but that's also not something you seem to be able to accept. Also, I'm clear on what an encyclopedia is, but thank you for showing how unbiased you are. I also believe an encyclopedia should publish CURRENT information and not something from 50 years ago unless it is stated in the past tense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hfletcher1 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Mike Bowler's article lists Tiftarea at the end of the article with a single asterisk, which is "* Visited summer 1970 by Mike Bowler, education editor of the Atlanta Constitution. In his opinion the schools he visited can be labeled "seg academies." It's not clear which schools are referenced with the statement below the asterisks, "Not all of these are seg academies." To update the article with what you claim to be the current status of Tiftarea, please cite an independent, reliable secondary source. For example, is there a reliable source for your claim, "The school currently gives 13% of scholarship money to minorities"? The academy's Equal Opportunity Statement notwithstanding, in question is the difference between de jure compliance and the possible de facto reality. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 19:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I found 2 sources that I consider reliable, though I had not seen the NICHE website previously. I found it on a link from the Georgia Department of Education, and it does seem to present info based on data. I defer to others who may want to re-word the content I added. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 00:09, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

As a source for US schools Niche.com has no value. There's no editorial oversight of its editorial content and it aggregates statistics, which could just as easily be sourced by us to their primary source. And to the OP, we simply report on what others have written about. Got a story not based on a press release about that? John from Idegon (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Requested responses from uninvolved editors

This is a clear conflict of interest- it happens that teachers edit their own schools, but they keep their heads down and don't draw attention to themselves- it is against Wikipedias rules. The work around is to, say on the talk page what your connection is, and post your corrections and comments there so other editors can review it and post it if appropriate. So they can do so we do need to have a reliable source. I am attempted to allow primary sources here, as well as the normal secondary sources. For plain facts like the team colours, a link to an online prospectus will be fine. For value judgements- safety appraisals- examination results we need something far more substantial. WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG gives advice on what to include.

This article is a stub for two reasons- lack of reliable references, and because it is tiny. We have a useful rule WP:UNDUE which says the article should not give undue weight to one aspect, and the spat about a bit of history, when nothing has been written about the programs of study, specialisms, architecture really is OTT (over the top). I am reading this from an Europe- and there is a lot more I want to know first. You can expand it a lot without writing any history.

This spat seems to be about a nasty period in your states history. If thats the case you need to explain the issues carefully and clearly in a subsection of the article. A blue wikilink really does not help me understand how the issues apply to this establishment. Include details how this school differs from others in the neighbourhood. This may mean you have to do a lot of editing in other school articles. We are an encyclopedia- What Wikipedia is not.ClemRutter (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Black students in 1972

An IP editor edited the text to emphasise the school's Christian ethos, and changed the text that no black students were enrolled in 1972 to state that no black students applied to be enrolled in 1972. The reference that already existed, and was not changed [1] does not say that no black students applied. It merely says there weren't any. It perhaps hints at possible reasons, by mentioning the cost of education at the school, and it mentions the concept of segregation, but it would be synthesis to draw any conclusions from this newspaper article about why there were no black students there in 1972. I am not an expert on segregation in US schools, but I felt obliged to revert the IP editor's changes as they seemed to me to be an attempt to brush segregation under the carpet and make it look as though it were the fault of the black community, in some way, that they weren't attempting to get into the school. Someone more knowledgeable than me might like to comment more. Whatever the situation, we cannot have changes to the text of a WP article that do not reflect the references used to support the text. Please discuss here... Elemimele (talk) 19:56, 13 August 2021 (UTC)