Talk:Tiberius/Archive 1

Suggestion for corrections in section on 29-26 BC

Text currently reads: "In 29 BC, both he and his brother Drusus rode in the triumphal chariot along with their adoptive father Octavian in celebration of the defeat of Antony and Cleopatra at Actium. In 26 BC, Augustus became gravely ill..."

1) After checking the footone, it seems that Tiberius rode with Marcellus (not Drusus) on the horses of Augustus' chariot. Suetonius Tib 6.4: "Then, just as he was arriving at puberty, he accompanied the chariot of Augustus in his triumph after Actium, riding the left trace-horse, while Marcellus, son of Octavia, rode the one on the right. " http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Tiberius*.html#6

2) It is an anachronism to call Octavian "their adoptive father". Augustus only adopted Tiberius in 4 AD along with Agrippa Postumus. He could not have already been Tiberius' adoptive father in 29 BC. He was certainly married to Tiberius' mother, but this is not the same as adopting him.

3) Augustus became gravely ill in 23 BC, not 26 BC. Dio 53.30: "Augustus became consul for the eleventh time with Calupurnius Piso as his colleage, and was then again taken ill, this time so seriously that there appeared tob e no hope of his recovery. At any rate, he arranged all his affairs as if he were at the point of death...". Piso and Augustus were consuls in 23. Wikipedia lists Piso as a suffect consul in 23. In any case, Piso was not consul in 26. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_consuls#First_century_BC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.47.33 (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Command and Conquer

I took out the reference to command and conquers reference to Tiberium. It said it was named after Tiberius Drusus Caesar. This is not Tiberius and Tiberius is also a very common Roman name much like Gaius, Titus etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.141.119 (talk) 17:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

His Adoption

I restated his "adoption" by Augustus because Suetonius is very direct at saying he was adopted *after* his return from Rhodes which would put it very late in life. He married Julia abt 11 BC and he went to Rhodes possibly abt 6BC. Suetonius state he was there for eight years and that it wasn't until AFTER Gaius and Lucius died that Tiberius was then adopted, along with Posthumous. Wjhonson 03:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Sexual Perversion

Ancient sources write how Tiberius engaged in extreme sexual pervesion "Rumor has it..." Let's name the source. Wetman 00:54, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My guess is Suetonius, but I'm not going to look it up. -- Decumanus 00:55, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oh yes, Suetonius paras 43 and 44 have the juicy details. Although they sound plausible, it's of course difficult to know how much is true. Stan 03:57, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Did Suetonius think the activities were really so nasty? Or is it we who think so? I thought he was pretty trusty, considering he held a court position under Hadrian. Get the quote into the entry I say. Wetman 04:08, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Suetonius himself acknowledges that the stories are a bit, shall we say, tabloidish; the paragraph (#44) that describes Tiberius' taste for little boys opens with an acknowledgement that the stuff it reports is both vile (turpiore infamia) and rather hard to swallow. --No-One Jones (talk) 04:26, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It says that Drusus and Nero Caesar were banished to islands 'where they died'. I thought that they were murdered on the islands or starved to death. Also, on the section about Tiberius' death, if Suetonius and Tacitus mention Caligula's part in it why is it 'most likely that he died a natural death'?

I believe there's some stuff in Tacitus as well, though it's been awhile. radek 04:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The passage which reads, "Suetonius records livid tales of sexual perversity and cruelty...", should that not read, "Suetonius records lurid tales of sexual perversity and cruelty..."? Kidigus 16:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeedy. I've changed the text. "Livid" has come to mean, though some confusion, brightly colored, especially in the red region. Perhaps from the nearly exclusive use of the word in modern English in the phrase "livid with rage" (or, elliptically, merely "livid"); the expression originally referred to the rare and dangerous level of fury in which color drains from the face (the word means "ashen, pale grey"); the much more commonly-encountered level of rage results in a flushed appearance. In any case it's a simple matter. 69.19.14.28 23:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC) alsihler

Not surprising that those too dumb to spell "perversion" (perverion? pervesion?) would have a problem with sexual diversity and exploration. Of course we all are still against cruelty, but where there is no victim, Wikipedia should be NPOV, ancient texts cited or not.Ryoung122 02:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The RS's can take a POV and Wiki summarizes those views. Child molestation, then or now, is not 'exploration.'— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.250 (talk) 11:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

I added a line about Suetonius' vivid descriptions about Tiberius' child molestation, at the very least to give readers a heads up before clicking the link. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 06:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Though it should be noted that these tales were certainy inventions based on rumors. After all, how would these authors know about what happened in capri ? It gave them the opportunity to invent nice stories. Tacitus also reports tales of perversion but is more cautious in its handling of his information than suetonius who take them for granted. It would make little sense that Tiberius, known for being austere to the extreme, would become a perverse in his old age (after 60). And while he showed little hesitation in executing those who considered a threat, there no evidence for him being sadistic, except for Tacitus and Suetonius... though both admit he was not so before the 20s AD.

Tiberius' name

Did he ever actually go by the name Tiberius Claudius Nero Caesar? I was under the impression his names were:

• at birth — Tiberius Claudius Nero;
• after his adoption by Augustus — Tiberius Caesar;
• after his accession — Tiberius Caesar Augustus.

Franey 11:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good point. Unlike modern Western names, Roman names fluctuated a lot; and many Wikipedia editors tend to "pile it on" (or different editors tack on one thing and another), and we get to things like this. A check of his coins and inscriptions would do it; I'm no expert, but I have a suspicion you're right. A quick check of my own photos turns up no inscription of Tiberius', so I'll stay out of it. Ideally though the names should be listed in order during the course of the article, and the commonest name, prolly the official imperial form, should head the article off. Bill 12:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This site gives names of Roman rulers (kings, consuls and emperors) from primary sources. It gives Tiberius' name in his first and second consulships (13 BC & 7 BC) as TI. CLAVVDIVS TI. f. TI. f NERO, and in his third (AD 18, after his accession) as TI. CÆSAR AVGVSTVS. What name he went under between his adoption in AD 4 and his accession ten years later, it doesn't say. However:

• Augustus had dropped the Julius from his name by 38 BC, and seems to have treated Caesar as his nomen; certainly his filiation was placed after it (see his entries as consul, 30 BC to 23 BC);
• Tiberius adopted his nephew Germanicus at the same time as or soon after his own adoption by Augustus; Germanicus' name after this was apparently Germanicus Caesar (consulships in AD 12 & AD 18);
• both Suetonius & Cassius Dio say that Tiberius refused the title of Augustus voted him by the Senate (though he used it in correspondence with foreign rulers, and did not object when others ascribed it to him).

— all of which suggest Tiberius' adoptive, pre-accession name was Tiberius Caesar.

However, it's still a presumption. I'll change the article to give his correct birth and regnal names, and leave his adoptive name for now. Franey 15:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Even if Augustus had "dropped" nomen Julius, it clearly was left sort of hidden, as daughters of future generations (such as daughters of Germanicus and daughter of Drusus, son of Tiberius, as well as daughter of Caligula) were "Julia something". Perhaps the "dropping" was only to save space in a long name... I think this shoud be taken into account when stating the regnal name, etc 217.140.193.123 6 July 2005 22:14 (UTC)

It's true that the family continued to acknowledge their (adoptive) descent from the patrician Julii, but it's also true that they adopted Caesar as their nomen, and did not simply omit their nomen Julius. The big indication for this is that the name Caesar appears before the filiation on coinage and inscriptions. So I'm not sure what you mean by "take into account when stating the regnal name", but considering that the emperors in question never (so far as our evidence goes) used the name Julius during their reign, it seems pretty clear to me that we shouldn't be including it as a part of their name.

This was also, of course, the period when rules for Roman names were really starting to dissolve away, as the ranks of the Roman citizens became more ethnically diverse and less tied culturally to the heritage of the population of Latium. So it was becoming less and less remarkable to give a daughter her own name, or to adopt a non-traditional nomen, or to use a cognomen as a praenomen. Binabik80 02:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for this assertion? pookster11 01:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The OCD article on the topic is "Names, personal, Roman"; Imperial-period names are covered in section 11. Pretty much any study of Roman nomenclature longer than about five paragraphs will cover it. Here's one I found in the public domain by googling roman personal names. If it's the women's names that particularly interest you, the OCD article cites a 1995 study Roman Female Praenomina by M. Kajava. Binabik80 03:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Did he not be Tiberius Iulius Caesar after his adoption? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.136.248.34 (talk • contribs) 02:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

Germanicus was assassinated?

It is fair to say that Germanicus was murdered? There is no evidence on that. He might have died of a natural ilness, so common for westerns travelling in the Middle East in his time...

Piso's suicide doesn't qualify as evidence? I don't think we should say he was definitely murdered, but we should certainly mention that there's a strong possibility of it. john k 6 July 2005 15:39 (UTC)

I don't think that his suicide is an evidence. He was under heavy pressure because he was accused of taking arms against Rome as prefect of Syria, not only because of Germanicus alleged murder. He could be convicted of treason, a good motive for suicide also, isn't it?

Suetonius records Germanicus himself believing he had been murdered; then again, Suetonius has a tendency to jump on any sordid rumor and include it in his works. Not sure what you mean about Westerners often dieing of illness in Syria though; the region had been relatively uniform since the 4th century BC, and traders had come from Syria to every region of the Mediterranean since the 3rd millenium BC, so its not as if they were exposed to new climates. pookster11 01:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Trajan also died of an illness developed in the region. It was known for being one of the more unhealthy areas of the empire. 72.33.46.114 (talk) 20:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Rubbish. Trajan was old and worn out. We really don't know what he died from - could have been an internal ailment of some body organ. I've never run across any statement from the ancient sources supporting your statement about Syria.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.250 (talk) 11:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Plagiarism

Much of this page (added by 68.12.208.244 on July 13, 2005) was plagiarized from:

http://www.unrv.com/early-empire/tiberius.php http://www.unrv.com/early-empire/germanicus.php http://www.unrv.com/early-empire/sejanus.php http://www.unrv.com/early-empire/final-years.php

As the original author, and having not been asked permission, I removed the offending material.

Remaining article seems to have been copied directly from http://www.roman-emperors.org/tiberius.htm

Thank You, Chris Heaton www.unrv.com primuspilus@unrv.com

Dear Chris, surely wikipedia is now less for want off you inciteful commentary alex.thirkill@gmail.com (on Wikipedia, User:82.153.66.170)

Copyright violation is not tolerated on Wikipedia! Bill 23:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

If Germanicus was assasinated was it ordered by Tiberius or was it all the doing of Piso.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevol (talk • contribs) 12:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

and without an RS stating so this is just speculation— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.250 (talk) 11:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Pater Patriae

Tiberius Caesar was not the only emperor to refused to bear the title Pater Patriae, Nero refused too, cause he was very young to bear it.

Irrelevance?

Why on earth do we need to know that the middle name of a fictional character was Tiberius? Surely this should be kept to the article on James T Kirk, rather than being spooned in here. Granted there is some pleasure to be had in getting your favourite topic mentioned wherever possible, but I think this really is stretching it a bit. Unless there are any sound objections to its removal, I intend to delete this sentence on the grounds of irrelevance. Peeper 09:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Why on earth do we need to have an encyclopedia? :-) I agree that the reference is at the very edge of relevance, but the ST reference to "Tiberius" is probably the most widespread daily appearance of the name today (lots of reruns on TV), and readers value WP for its unlikely connections. In general I think it's useful to have links both ways when disparate subjects are connected - using "what links here" to find references to Tiberius is for more for editors, not readers. The sentence here should be minimal in any case, or even an entry in a list, with the etymology bit kept only in the Kirk article. Stan 17:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. As I'm still a relative newbie, I'll defer...while Wikipedia's obscure links are great, this one seems a bit more in-depth than is necessary, but then it's only a few lines so no cigar. Now then, I'm sure a character in Rosemary and Thyme had a dog called Tiberius, I must look that up ;) ... cheers, Peeper 18:27, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd also agree with its removal. As far as TV reruns go ... seriously, how often is Star Trek VI on TV? Binabik80 02:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

rarr! bring it on . grrr.ok i will!

Added back with a section on Tibberus in pop culture (Which I'll fill some more when I get a moment). Given that Nero's entry gives such trivia as a mention in a Bugs Bunny cartoon or as a name of a video game character in an up coming game, I'd say that a mention is well within Wiki tradition. Jusenkyoguide 10 January 2007

Repetition and error in first dealings with the senate

According to Tacitus, Tiberius' first dealings with the senate following the accession was to arrange Augustus' funeral. It was in the second meeting of the senators where they actually conferred on him the responsibilities of the state. Furthermore, in that meeting according to Tacitus Annals 1.11-12 when Tiberius asks to be entrustes with a single part of the state, Assinius Gallus inquires which part he would like. Thomaschina03 17:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Images

Is the second image (the 19th-century bust) really appropriate here? Tiberius had exceptionally distinct features, yet this second one could be of almost anybody. Is it possible to replace it with an image that does better justice to him?

Be bold. I removed it; next time, do it yourself, of course. Bill 20:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Nero

The Nero that Tib. exiled and killed in 30 CE was Nero son of Germanicus, not Nero (Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus) adopted son of Tib. that later became the Emperor. The link in the article goes to Nero the emperor, which is wrong, but I don't actually know how to fix that.

128.208.183.247 01:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Problem hopefully solved. (21.02.2006)

Chronology of AD 31

Crucial evidence for the chronology of the massacre of Sejanus' family is provided by the Fasti Ostienses (V.Ehrenberg & A.H.M.Jones, Documents Illustrating the Reigns of Augustus and Tiberius [2nd ed.Oxford 1955):

"XV k.Nov.Seianus s[trang.] VIIII k.Nov. Strabo [Seiani] f. strang. VII k.No[v. Apicata] Seiani se occidi[t......] Dec. Capito Aelia[nus et] Iunilla Seiani [in Gem.] iacuerunt"

I.e Sejanus was strangled on 18 October, Strabo was strangled on the 24th, and Apicata killed herself on the 26th. The two younger ones seem to have died between 14 November and 13 December ("Dec."). Livilla's death seems to have predated theirs, since when Tacitus' narrative resumes in Book VI, she is already dead while Capito and Iunilla are still alive.

Dio is mistaken in saying that all the children were already dead when Apicata committed suicide. ('His wife ... on learning that her children were dead, and after seeing their bodies on the Stairway, ... withdrew and composed a statement about the death of Drusus, directed against Livilla, his wife, who had been the cause of a quarrel between herself and her husband, resulting in their separation; then, after sending this document to Tiberius, she committed suicide.')

AD 19-31 Conflicting Agendas of Key Figures

Agrippina’s agenda:

to see her sons succeed to the Principate

Livilla’s agenda:

to maximise the survival chances of her sons (i.e. after 23 of Tiberius Gemellus). She must have believed – in the event correctly – that Gemellus’ survival, and that of Agrippina’s male offspring were incompatible. Crucially, her husband Drusus deferred to Germanicus, although the latter was only slightly older. Drusus and Germanicus remained the best of friends (“singularly united...wholly unaffected by the rivalries of their kinsfolk”, Tac.Ann.2.43), and after Germanicus’ death fostered and seemingly promoted Germanicus’ children with genuine affection (Ann.4.4.: “kindly disposed or at least not unfriendly towards the lads.”). If Livilla did indeed conspire to murder Drusus, this is as excellent a motive as any. To quote Seager (Tiberius, 182): The only possible explanation for her conduct is that she was acting in the interest of her sons, Tiberius Gemellus and Germanicus. If Drusus followed Tiberius, it was probable that he would respect his father’s wishes and hand over power to one or the other of the sons of Germanicus....”

Tiberius’ agenda

i: AD 19-23 It was Augustus’ wish that Germanicus should succeed Tiberius. “There is nothing to suggest that [Tiberius] ever dreamed of reversing Augustus’ decision on this vital point” (Seager p. 111).

ii: After 23 With Drusus’ death he seems to have been increasingly incapable of any coherent succession-policy, and Sejanus was slowly able to paralyse Tiberius’ will. At the senate meeting in September of 23 he talked of “restoring the Republic”, of handing back the power to “the consuls or whoever” (seu quis, Ann. IV.9), and he commended Germanicus’s children to the senate: (Ann.4.8: “I adjure you to receive into your care and guidance the great-grandsons of Augustus... So fulfil your duty and mine. To you, Nero and Drusus, these senators are as fathers. Such is your birth that your prosperity and adversity must alike affect the State”). And even while relations with Agrippina deteriorated, he remained open to the idea that one of Germanicus’ sons should succeed: note his rebuttal of Sejanus’ proposal regarding Livilla in 25 (when she was still of childbearing age), and his summoning Caligula to Capri in 30, out of harm’s way.

Sejanus’ agenda

i) to conceal his adulterous relationship with Livilla

ii) to avoid being killed by Drusus, who made no secret of his hatred of Sejanus (Tac.Ann.4.3 and 4.7) and who might well have put him to death had he succeeded Tiberius (the most cogent argument for Drusus having been murdered)

iii) to maximise the advantage of his intimacy with Livilla

a) by presenting himself as the protector and guardian of Tiberius Gemellus (note in the letter purportedly written by him to Tiberius, where he refers to the need for Tiberius’ family “to be secured against the unjust displeasure of Agrippina (Ann.4.39)”

b) by intermarrying with the ruling house: there was Livilla and her daughter, there was Gemellus, there was Claudius’ children etc. Sejanus had three children, and Sejanus’ daughter Junilla had been betrothed to Claudius’ son (Ann.3.29, Suet.Claud.27, Dio 58.11.5)

c) that he wished personally to marry Livilla’s daughter is possible but less likely (arguments in Seager, Tiberius p.213 note 6)

d) obtain all the powers once accorded by Augustus to Agrippa. Then he could marginalise Tiberius, exploit his near-stranglehold of access to Tiberius, confine Tiberius to his villa etc. and wait for him to die of old age.

Probably he wished to become Tiberius’ effective heir, but he was too smart to realise that someone of his Equestrian background could be emperor, pace Juvenal (Sat.x. 74ff.). The Senate would not have tolerated Sejanus as princeps, nor would the provincial armies. (For all the arguments, see Seager, Tiberius,

There is also a radical but unlikely hypothesis (cited in OCD [1970] 970B) that Sejanus “planned to strike at the principate”. He could not be emperor himself. But if the obvious candidates were eliminated (i.e. Drusus and the sons of Germanicus), then then he could appeal to popular sentiment at Rome, using his extensive network of friends to override the Senate. This hypothesis is supported by one crucial piece of evidence, an open letter written by Tiberius, rebuking some electoral institution in Rome: in AD 31, unknown to Tiberius, Sejanus had organised a highly irregular electoral meeting on the Aventine (normally the place was the Campus Martius). The Aventine had long populist associations. (Ehrenberg and Jones 53 = ILS 6044: “...improbae comitiae [q]uae fuerunt in Aventino, ubi [Sei]anus cos. factus est...”)

See especially R.Seager Tiberius, London 1972 81.190.70.164

I still have trouble accepting the theory regarding Livilla. It's really hard to ascribe any rational motivation to her actions. Clearly if she had hoped to become Empress of Rome then sticking with Drusus was a much better option than taking the risk of poisoning him and plotting with a mere equestrian for power. Seems to me she was genuinly in love with Sejanus, and apparently willing to do anything for him, as irrational as it was. --Steerpike 21:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Something Strange

Why is it that the page on Sejanus actually has less information than the page on Tiberius does? --168.28.128.78 00:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Should be fixed for now. --Steerpike 16:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I want to edit!!!

Someone screams hysterically:

The previous content of this page is suspected to have violated copyright. Please do not edit this page. Refer to the discussion page for details.

On my wish list: LOGIC!! If it was the former version which "suspected to have violated copyright" (now, perceive a tone of slight scorn!) - then why can't I edit this text?? I wish to relink Quintus Naevius Macro, to Naevius Sutorius Macro. OK, I respect copyrights, since Wikipedia needs copyrights to be able to exist, but I don't respect illogics! Rursus 08:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Whoever put up that comment should explain which Wikipedia policy it is based on. If they can/do not, I would delete the comment and go ahead with your edit. — Johan the Ghost _seance 16:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Page re-written. Enjoy. 128.97.244.16 11:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, Rursus, I'd prefer it if you didn't insult me for removing plagiarised text that no-one else had bothered to delete, and that would have gone unchecked until someone viewed a previous question regarding that exact matter. It would have been morally contrary to Wikipedia policy to have allowed the text to remain, so given that you hadn't picked up on that, please don't lambast other members. I apologise for not altering that text at a later date - the intention was to prevent anyone from reverting upon seeing that a giant chunk was chopped out, but I forgot to return to remove/alter it at a later time. Thank you to all the contributors to the new page. Cyril Washbrook 10:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Terror

In the second paragraph, the article describes the decline of Tiberius' rule, which "ended in a Terror." Is a Terror a technical term for something? If so, we should link it to an article discussing the term. If not, I think we should perhaps delete that last phrase. Regardless, this is in need of clarification. Dustingc 18:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Son of God

I was watching a programme called 'Secret Bible', and it said that Tiberius Caesar Augustus was given the title 'Son of God' and asked his subjects to worship him as a god. Is this true?--Jcvamp 12:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Tiberius was famous for not wanting the inhabitants of the empire to worship him, and, unusually for emperors, he was not deified upon his death. However... his predecessor and adoptive father Augustus was indeed deified upon his death, and so divi filius - "son of the god" - was among Tiberius's official titles. This was exactly the same as every other Roman emperor, including Augustus who was the adoptive son of the deified Julius Caesar. TharkunColl 12:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Divi Filius was never a title of the Roman Emperors, it was used solely by Augustus. Later emperors (Caligula, Domitian, Commodus, the Severi) claimed to be gods themselves, and initially many new dynasties tied their rule to a deified member of the previous dynasty, but never actively took the title divi filius. The imperial cult likewise never worshipped any emperor as god until after their death; the exceptions to this rule, once again Caligula, Domitian, et alia, were all assassinated in part because of their claim of divinity and abuse of power. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.67.226.100 (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

what was tiberius geographical

what was Tiberius geographical info —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.111.221.53 (talk) 21:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

• He had none. He was a person. 164.67.226.242 01:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

New pictures

I have added several new pictures to this article, as well as a few 'old' ones from other Wikipedia articles. All properly tagged, and if possible, uploaded to the commons. I wanted to improve the visual attraction of the article somewhat, since it was mostly one big block text previously. Hope you like it. --Steerpike 23:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Suetonius 12 Caesars

Template:Suetonius 12 Caesars has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.

Citations

Someone with too much time on their hands needs to redirect the citations from Dio back to their original source, Tacitus' Annales. As seen by the reference section, Dio records numerous events from Tiberius' life, but all of them are drawn from Annales, in some cases verbatim with Tacitus, and Dio does not include as much detail or analysis. In fact, many of the points that are here made within the article are in fact made by Tacitus, while they are references to the later cursory treatment that Dio gives to the Emperor. pookster11 04:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Nearly every citation in this article comes from me. The reasons why I sometimes included Dio instead of Tacitus is because a) it was more compact or better worded, b) I wanted to keep the citations diverse and not just only cite Tacitus (even though it's true that Dio's work was mostly based on the latter's), c) because it's interesting to compare how both authors sometimes describe same events (and regardless, readers might be interested in the exact 'location' of Dio's words in his text as well) and finally d) the entire section about Sejanus' fall is missing from Tacitus' Annals, so we only have Suetonius and Cassius Dio to go by. But I'll have look at it. --Steerpike 10:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sejanus' fall is in Annales- it breaks up in places but it's there. Second, you seem to have made my point for me. Yes, its more compact in Dio because Dio only gives a cursory overview of what was already in Tacitus. Thats WHY its compact in Dio- Dio is fully aware of the existence and importance of Annales. If you want to keep the citations diverse using Dio instead of Tacitus is ludicrous; Tacitus is Dio's SOURCE for the reign of Tiberius. Tacitus and Suetonius at least are drawing data from different sources; if you want to mix it up, go with those two, but don't make it "Tacitus" and "Tacitus-lite". Both authors describe the same events because, once again, Dio's work is BASED OFF OF TACITUS. Its like noting how "The Empire Strikes Back" treats the characters the same as "A New Hope". Adding references from multiple authors is fine, but in this case as we have three main historians of the period, and Dio utilizes Tacitus' works to write his own history, doesn't it make sense to tie the quotes back to the original rather than the secondary source? pookster11 22:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The sections on Tiberius' death and the fall of Sejanus are now done. I checked each reference to Cassius Dio with the Annals today, and found only one that could have been left out. The others remain until they are checked with Suetonius. The sections covering Germanicus, his relations with the senate and his early life will be done some other time this week. --Steerpike 21:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Apart from one citation, the section on Tiberius' early reign and on Germanicus are now also done. Seeing as Tacitus describes little of Tiberius' early life, I'm not sure this section needs further editing, so I consider the entire text (apart from that one citation) done as far as conversion of redundant Dio citations to Tacitus is concerned. --Steerpike 19:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. Good job, thanks for doing all that. pookster11 09:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Death of Augustus

Also, to pookster11, the details surrounding Augustus' death are NOT, in my opinion irrelevant because firstly, they're not really about his death (which, for example, some authors ascribe to poisoning by Livia, including Tacitus) but about the consequences to Tiberius as successor to Augustus. Because secondly, it's important to note that Tiberius had Postumus Agrippa killed. And since he's mentioned as being disowned by Augustus earlier in the text, readers might wonder what happened with him. If this has anything to do with a dislike for Suetonius and/or Cassius Dio as sources, I should note that the story stems largely from Tacitus. In fact, he famously opens his treatment on the reign of Tiberius with the line: The first crime of the new reign was the murder of Postumus Agrippa. And he also speculates Tiberius and Livia were behind it. Whether or not the news delayed is probably open for discussion, but I would not omit the fact that Postumus was killed. --Steerpike 11:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

As I noted in the edit, there is considerable debate among the sources themselves as to what occurred around the death of Augustus; the primaries themselves don't seem to know. Any treatment of Augustus' death would have to take this into account, as well as delving into secondary material to make sense of the various rumors and why the authors include them. That Postumus was killed is not the issue, nor is it an issue at all- the young man was clearly killed at the beginning of Tiberius' reign. What I am saying is that discussion of the events around the death of Augustus rightly belong either on Augustus' own page or on a separate page to account for the variety of rumors, stories, conspiracies, and analysis thereof by secondary scholars. I have no problem with any of the sources, and even if I did this is not the place to debate them. This is essentially what my argument and my edit boils down to- such a discussion comparing sources and making sense of the events around Augustus' death does not belong on Tiberius' page. What is relevant for Tiberius is that Augustus died and Tiberius stepped into power, not the how and why of Augustus' death. pookster11 22:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Things to be done

I think the article is shaping up pretty nicely now, but there's still a lot of room for improvement, especially on the section covering Tiberius' reign as emperor. His early life seems to be fairly detailed so I would leave that alone for now. Some suggestions:

• Rename the heading 'Early Reign' as 'Succession', because the section mostly talks about the transfer of power and his relation to the senate.
• Cut 'The Rise and Fall of Germanicus' at the suicide of Piso and create several new sections that cover more of Tiberius' policies, for example foreign relations and events (earthquake in Asia), religious policy, administrative policies, the revival of the treason laws, etc. There's a lot in Tacitus' Annals, especially books 2 and 3 that remains unused. I think that, currently, the article focuses a bit too much on the causes for his unpopularity, and doesn't really tell us much of Tiberius as administrator.
• Integrate more information from different sources, although I'm not sure there are many besides Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio that are really useful anymore. Josephus doesn't really write much about Tiberius that isn't already covered in detail by the aformentioned three writers. Velleius Paterculus' text is nothing short of hagiography so mostly useless. Pliny is fun for weird trivia (apparently Tiberius liked cucumbers and could see in the dark) but otherwise doesn't write much about his reign. Were there any others worth considering?
• Break up the section 'Legacy' into separate subsections covering 'Historiography' (discussions of the sources), 'Archeology' (covering archealogical findings related to Tiberius) and 'Tiberius in Fiction'.

Anything else? --Steerpike 12:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think its perfect, but then again I wrote it and I'm vain. Anyway, incorporation of TIberius's further policies would be great, but would also be extremely unweildy due to the sources. The most extensive source is of course Tacitus, and Tacitus is so blatantly biased against Tiberius that it would require multiple secondary sources to make sense of it in an encyclopaedic context. His early successes certainly deserve mention, though it has been shown that Tacitus' narrative blows the maiestas trials out of proportion (and as a side note, Tacitus credits Augustus with the revival and corruption of the maiestas law). As far as sources, you rightly point out that there isn't much else. Tacitus and Suetonius remain the primary sources, with Dio utilizing and tweaking Tacitus here and there and Josephus largely silent and Paterculus is too fragmentary to really add anything substantial. There is substantial epigraphical evidence especially in the East during the early part of his reign; the problem is his retirement to Capri throws everything off. People simply stop caring who or what Tiberius is supposed to be, and thus the records of his reign end up becoming the records of those who acted in Rome while Tiberius was in seclusion. To sum up, episodes from his early reign could stand to be added as they are certainly significant, but with the lack of sources and the nature of the sources that do remain, there's not a tremendous amount of data that can be added. pookster11 09:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Heir to Augustus

States that Tiberius was only person to gain imperium maius alongside Augustus. Didn't Agrippa gain the same honors in 13 BC? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ilanham (talk • contribs) 04:06, Jul 10, 2007 (UTC)

You are right. In fact it seems he received it twice, for example Cassius Dio, Book 54, 12 and 28 I'll fix it in the article. --Steerpike 10:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC) EDIT: I seem to be mistaken. I was talking about Tribunician power, but that line in the article probably refers to Suetonius, Life of Tiberius, 21. I can't immediately find a similar statement on Agrippa, so I'll asume the article was correct. But I need to adjust that reference. --Steerpike 11:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Dio 54.28.1 says that from 13 BC Agrippa had "greater authority than the officials outside Italy ordinarily possessed", apparently indicating imperium maius. However, we also have a papyrus fragment of Augustus' funeral oration for Agrippa (trans. R. K. Sherk, The Roman Empire: Augustus to Hadrian (1988), no. 12). This states that his power was "not less" than that of other provincial magistrates, which may refer to imperium aequum (so, e.g., E. Badian, "Notes on the Laudatio of Agrippa", Classical Journal 76.2 (1980), 97–109). In other words, the article may be correct that Tiberius was the only person to receive imperium maius from Augustus, but this is not certain. I'll adjust the article to take account of this. EALacey 12:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

My info comes from Augustus by Anthony Everitt. Pg.268 "...and for the first time Agrippa was awarded imperium maius, the overriding authority that allowed him to give orders to provincial governors." Although, Everitt does not reference this in his note, but his biliography states he used Suetonius and Cassius Dio in his writing. Maybe he used Augustus' Res Gestae? In either case, if there's any questioning of Everitt's work, perhaps my intial statement wrong. --Ilanham 19:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Agrippa's power was second to Augustus'; Tiberius' was equal to Augustus'. Thats the main difference, and while its a minor difference at that, it is highly significant and noteworthy. When Augustus died, Tiberius was already Princeps in all but name and a handful of titles. pookster11 23:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

While Tiberius power was legally equal to Augustus, Augustus auctoritas meant that for all intents and purposes Augustus was still in sole control of the empire. Both men were marked as successors by this time however, Augustus had reached a advanced age and did not know how long he would live. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.46.114 (talk) 20:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

The Gospels

There's a sectionette on what the Gospels tell us about Tiberius. Bugger all, actually. Is there any reason it should be kept? PiCo 03:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course. It is relevant information.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.250 (talk) 12:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a link to Sejanus on the pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejanus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.0.157 (talk) 23:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency with this page and the page on Livia Drusilla?

I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm reading this all correctly, but in the entry for Tiberius' mother, Livia Drusilla, it says, regarding her marriage to Octavian (later Augustus) "At this time, Livia already had a son, the future emperor Tiberius, and was pregnant with the second (Drusus the Elder). Legend said that Octavian fell immediately in love with her, despite the fact that he was still married to Scribonia. Octavian divorced Scribonia in 39 BC, on the very day that she gave birth to his daughter Julia the Elder (Cassius Dio 48.34.3). Seemingly around that time, when Livia was six months pregnant, Tiberius Claudius Nero was persuaded or forced by Octavian to divorce Livia. On 14 January, the child was born. Octavian and Livia married on 17 January, waiving the traditional waiting period." So this says that Livia had the baby, and then, three days later, was married to Octavian, is that correct? In this entry on Tiberius, though, we read "In 39 BC, his mother divorced his biological father and remarried Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus shortly thereafter, while still pregnant with Tiberius Nero's son. Shortly thereafter in 38 BC his brother, Nero Claudius Drusus, was born." This seems to be saying that Livia married Octavian while still pregnant from her first marriage and had the baby shortly thereafter. I have no idea which of these is correct, but I thought you might want them to be uniform among these related pages. This is the first time I've come on the "talk" board, so I hope I'm going about this the right way. Blackavar1961 (talk) 18:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)Blackavar1961

Tiberius and Vipsania

"soon afterwards, Tiberius met with Augustus, and steps were taken to ensure that Tiberius and Vipsania would never meet again."

Is this insinuating that they had her assasinated? This needs to be more clear. What steps did they take exactly to make this happen, and did it suceed?JanderVK (talk) 08:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

12 AD vs 13 AD

With regard to the 13 AD date given for "co-princeps" of Tiberius under Augustus, consider that coins minted from 12-14 AD are stamped with "TI CAESAR AVGVST F IMPERAT VII", and bear the likeness of Tiberius on them; as well as others preceding 12 AD. Was there a date given based on the provided reference? Because when I looked it up, I found no date there specific to 13 AD. Are there other sources that are more explicit with regard to when Tiberius was considered a co-ruler with Augustus? Thanks. Firemute (talk) 21:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits

A recent series of reverts has added two statements: That Antonius Pius reigned from 138. This fact is not about Tiberius; it is also readily available at Antonius Pius - and it's also self-evident from the end date and length of reign that he must have come to the throne circa 138. It's also clumsily worded, cramming a "his" and a "he" into the same phrase that refer to two different people.

Agreed. In this article, it's trivial detail, and makes for awkward reading: if anyone wants to know exactly when Antoninus reigned, they can click the link. Haploidavey (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That the island of Capri is off the west coast of modern Italy. This also seems quite unnecessary; the reader would hardly suppose that Tiberius retired to an island off the north of Britannia. If we are going to mention it, locating it relative to Neapolis and the Gulf of Naples might be more use than the astonishing revelation that the Roman Empire was based in modern Italy.

Neither edit improves the page and hence I propose they be reverted. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Mostly agreed, though it might help to be told that he had a sumptuous estate on the island; that's what he retired to. Capri is reasonably close to Rome, so Tiberius could claim that he could keep in touch via the instant messaging of his day (which he did, pretty much), and thus fulfill all his duties while taking a long working holiday. I'm more concerned at by the addition of a drop-down/expandable thingy at the botton of the article, giving links to everthing Wikipedia has on Capri. What's the purpose in that? Haploidavey (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Have addressed the above, and provided basic context for "retirement" at Capri. Haploidavey (talk) 18:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:29, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Plagiarism - Discussion on Deletion

From the historical website http://www.roman-emperors.org/tiberius.htm "In fact, that first meeting between the Senate and the new emperor established a blueprint for their later interaction. Throughout his reign, Tiberius was to baffle, befuddle, and frighten the Senators. He seems to have hoped that they would act on his implicit desires rather than on his explicit requests." ... "A close friend and confidant had betrayed him. His withdrawal from public life seemed more complete in the last years. Letters kept him in touch with Rome, but it was the machinery of Augustus’s administration that kept the Empire running smoothly."

These section are fully copied and unsourced in the wikipedia article. The reason I believe the plageriasm comes from wikipedia is that the other website has extensive footnotes in comparision to wikipedia.

- this previously unsigned comment was made by 168.28.128.78 on 5 October 2006.

Incidentally, the reason that I was about to make a discussion point on this was to highlight that very point! Given that the source at Roman-Emperors.com was constructed in 1997, I think that someone has done a straight copy-and-paste, with amendments made to wikify it, so to speak. Any recommendations? Cyril Washbrook 11:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Those sections all need to be removed. I don't have time to do it right now, but will tomorrow if no one gets to it. --Aguerriero (talk) 22:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there are only two sections that should remain: "Continuing Legacy" and the introduction. I'm cutting it all out, although if anyone objects, please feel free to revert. Cyril Washbrook 07:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)