Talk:Thurgood Marshall/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Thurgood Marshall. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Marshall and Maryland Law School

I have read his bio on numeorus sites, all say he did apply and was rejected.

way, whether a "link" to a internet site is available).  --Noitall 03:57, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

At the dedication of the library I mentioned above, the Sun did an article on it. They dide by his biographer, Juan Williams, March 8, 2004 (available in Nexis): "In 1930, Thurgood Marshall, a lanky honors graduate fresh from Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, realized that the law school he hoped to attend did not accept black students. Though the University of Maryland School of Law was just blocks from his parents' home in West Baltimore, he decided it would be a waste of time and upsetting to even bother to apply...

"But he held a grudge against the law school, that had never given him a chance. In the tare [sic] 1970s, Marshall told an interviewer that he had dreamed about 'getting even with Maryland for not letting me go to its law school.' Only a year after graduating from Howard, the 25-year-old Marshall put a newly devised strategy for fighting segregation to the test: He would net challenge the segregation law itself but attempt to show a violation of the equal rights promised to all citizens under the Constitution. He persuaded a black Amherst College graduate, Donald Gaines Murray, to apply to Maryland's law school. As expected, Murray was rejected. Marshall had Murray write a letter to the university asking why he'd been denied admission. The university responded with a letter affirming its ban on black students and Marshall used it as the basis for a lawsuit against the university. The case went to court in June 1935, and a Baltimore City Court stunned lawyers on both sides by ruling that Murray must be admitted...

"In 1980, the University of Maryland School of Law opened a new library and named it for Marshall, who in 1967 had become the Supreme Court's first black justice. The school repeatedly called Marshall to invite him to the opening. Marshall refused to attend, and he wrote to his fellow justices: 'I am very certain that Maryland is trying to salve its conscience for excluding the Negroes from the University of Maryland for such a long period of time.' If the school didn't want anything to do with the young Thurgood Marshall, he said, then he didn't want anything to do with them now. But as far as he was concerned, he had repaired the scales of injustice that had weighed against him personally."

I too noticed this error in the article. It is stated in Carl Rowan's biography of Thurgood Marshall that he did indeed apply to the University of Maryland at College Park. On page 45 it states, "Both his state of poverty and the inconvenience of travel outside the Maryland told Thurgood that he should study law at the University of Maryland at College Park. When Marshall applied for admission, President R.A. Pearson had an aide write to Marshall to tell him, in effect, to drop dead. Maryland and all the professional schools of all southern state universities rejected black applicants."

According to my professors at Maryland Law, the way it went was that he never formally applied because the deam told him that he shouldn't bother. They used that in my legal history course as an example of not always trusting secondary sources. But the underlying thing is that the school would not let him attend and he was always bitter about it (and rightly so). Eoconn 16:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Supreme court cases? (suggestion)

This article should contain more info on Marshall's decisions as SC justice. --[[User:ZekeMacNei72.84.199.156 22:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)l|ZekeMacNeil]] 03:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Totally agree with ZekeMacNeill. Should have info about Brown v. Board of Education, his most famous case. --speedoflight 08:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Needs more background on SC trials!!!!!!

Controversy section on Goldberg v. Kelly is wrong. The case was about Welfare benefits, and Justice Brennan wrote the majority opinion with three dissents from conservative justices. Removed the entire section.

Murray didn't overturn Plessy

The summary in this article of of Murray v. Pearson claims that it "was the first to overturn Plessy". However, the opinion did not overturn Plessy, and in fact took pains not to (since the Maryland Supreme Court of course could not overturn a U.S. Supreme Court precedent). The Murray opinion did not hold that "separate but equal" was impermissible, but rather than Maryland's provision of law education was unequal. The opinion strongly hints that if there existed separate white and black law schools of comparable quality, then that would have been permitted; the integration remedy was adopted only because it was the only one available to the courts, as the courts don't have the authority to order the opening of new schools. If anything, the opinion explicitly reaffirms Plessy rather than overturns it, but holds that Maryland is in violation of the "equal" part of "separate but equal". --Delirium 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Asante's 100 Greatest African Americans

Why has the fact that Marshall was named in Molefi Kete Asante's list book, 100 Greatest African Americans, been singled out for mention in the article's lede? First of all, "greatest" is a subjective word. There's no doubt that Marshall was one of the most significant and influential African Americans in the history of this country. He was a man of great accomplishments -- a role model for everyone. But the word "greatest" is a usless word as far as this article is concerned. Second (and more important), why single out Asante's list as opposed to the lists/opinions/theses of others? Obviously, there are many scholars besides Asante in the areas of American history and African American studies. So why is his poorly titled list book singled out for mention in the introduction? This is an article about the plain facts of Thurgood Marshall's life, not an article about the opinions of a scholar named Molefi Asante. And, furthermore, Asante's arbitrary rankings are rather contrary to Wiki policy. Yes, Marshall was a great African American, but who is to say if he was the 10th greatest or 5th greatest or 31st greatest? No one can say which he is because it's all subjective and thus POV. To my mind, the mention of Asante's list book is better placed elsewhere in the article, or, even better, removed entirely. Therefore, I taken the bold step of removing the mention alltogether. If someone has an argument as to why it should be kept, please make it here, and we can discuss a reversion. ask123 (talk) 16:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Thurgood Marshall's Birthday?

It SHOULD read July 2, 1909 in the main text.

It says that he died on January 24, 1993 at the age of 84, so saying he was born in 1908 is incorrect :/

However, it does give the correct birthday in the little information box on the right. (: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.62.145.185 (talk) 03:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Place for two references

I note that the following are in a particular place in the article:

For more, see Bradley C. S. Watson, The Jurisprudence of William Joseph Brennan, Jr., and Thurgood Marshall in Frost, Bryan-Paul and Jeffrey Sikkenga. eds. History of American Political Thought (Lexington: Lexington Books, 2003). ISBN 0739106236; ISBN 978-0739106235; ISBN 9780393928860.

I think that these should be moved into the reference section. However I do not want to step on the toes of any of my fellow editors. What do you think? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC) Stan

Bot-created subpage

A temporary subpage at User:Polbot/fjc/Thurgood Marshall was automatically created by a perl script, based on this article at the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges. The subpage should either be merged into this article, or moved and disambiguated. Polbot (talk) 14:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

TV

I read somewhere that in the last few years of his life he got despondent and pretty much stopped working. He would sit in his chambers and watch TV, including daytime soaps, while his clerks did all the work drafting opinions and, increasingly, dissents. They knew what he wanted and simply carried it out for him to sign. 209.247.5.62 02:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I re-added this section:

==Later Years on Court== Unfortunately, Marshall's reputation in later years on the Court marred his legacy. Clerks in the 1980's noted his decline, often spending his afternoons watching television rather than writing opinions, which were left to the clerks themselves. He was also said to be falling asleep during oral arguments, doodling during judicial conferences, and generally treating his position as unimportant {{Fact|date=May 2007}}. Like [[Blackmun]], a fellow justice who concurred with Marshall 90% of the time during this period, Marshall's reputation in these "twilight" years became that of a justice detached from the workings of the court and unintellectually dogmatic {{Fact|date=May 2007}}.

I wasn't sure if we should leave it out or not. --Eastlaw 07:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And I've tagged it as of doubtful neutrality. In my view, it can't stay where it is unless verifiable references are added -- and soon. If not, then it's got to go. -- Lincolnite 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree 100%. It might be true, and if so it would be a good thing to put in, but if so it *must* be cited. -- Dominus 17:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be put in pending citations, however, especially based on an anonymous comment beginning with the phrase "I read somewhere that...", that is just sloppy.

I hate being the guy who says this but this is the TV section so here I go... wasn't the main character of the PJs named Thurgood, a definite through back to the man. Should this be mentioned somewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.208.193 (talk) 23:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Slight Editing

Marshall had two wives. I think that since their names take up to two lines anyway we should give each their own line to make it easier to read. Here is a what I mean if you can't understand:
Vivian "Busters" Burey,
Cecilia Suyat

Is that against any Wikipedia standards and practices? If not, please give me a little feed back. Unless their is a truly valid reason not to do it I say we got ahead with it.--72.241.206.170 (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

External links

It is my hope that these various articles, which could be paraphrased and referenced, might serve to inspire us to writing a more specific and insightful article. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC) Stan

Clerks: Philip Frickey

{{editsemiprotected}} Could an authorized user/editor add Prof. Philip Frickey's name to the notable clerks section of the wiki? He is currently a professor at Berkeley Law (Formerly Boalt Hall) and is one of the preeminent Legislation and Statutory Interpretation scholars in the U.S. (having published two major casebooks on the subjects). His profile and CV can be found at http://www.law.berkeley.edu/php-programs/faculty/facultyProfile.php?facID=900

Many thanks.

Jbeck82 (talk) 07:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:ACADEMIC and then try Articles for creation if you think he is notable. This isn't the right page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

untitled

Marshall was born in Baltimore, Maryland on July 2, 1908, the great-grandson of a slave. His original name was Thoroughgood, but he shortened it to Thurgood in second grade because he disliked spelling it. His father, William Marshall, who was a railroad porter, instilled in him an appreciation for the Constitution of the United States and the rule of law.[2] Additionally, as a child in Baltimore, he was punished for his school misbehavior by being forced to write copies of the Constitution, which he later said piqued his interest in the document.

Marshall was married twice; to Vivian "Buster" Burey from 1929 until her death in February 1955 and to Cecilia Suyat from December 1955 until his own death in 1993. He had two sons from his second marriage;[3] Thurgood Marshall, Jr., who is a former top aide to President Bill Clinton, and John W. Marshall, who is a former United States Marshals Service Director and since 2002 has served as Virginia Secretary of Public Safety under Governors Mark Warner and Tim Kaine. that was —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.16.205.4 (talk) 22:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Judicial Activist

Should recent news reports that challenge Marshall's legacy be included in this article? In [1], a Washington Post writer details attacks on Marshall's judicial philosphy. Hipocrite (talk) 13:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It's newsworthy, but we aren't a newspaper. Dlabtot (talk) 15:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Dlabtot, and I would also add the following: It's hardly relevant to include vocal criticism by a few members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. If there was to be a signficant, inter-party debate on the issue of Marshall's legacy, that might warrant inclusion. As of now, I'd say it definitely lacks notability. Nothing is being said about him that haven't been said before, on the same limited scale, by essentially the same people. And if we were to include that kind of narrow but scathing disapproval of one Justice's views, then the articles for virtually every 20th century member of the Court whose tenure incited aversion in some way would have a subsection devoted to scattered comments of disfavor. Shoplifter (talk) 15:50, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

That seems reasonable, thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

First black Solicitor General?

The article does not say so, but it seems likely that he was also the first black Solicitor General of the United States. Does anyone know for certain? SS451 (talk) 04:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

He was. I've added that information to List of African-American firsts and linked it in this article. Shoplifter (talk) 16:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Episcopal Sainthood

I recently learned that Thurgood Marshall may be a Saint of the Episcopal Church. According to the Bishop of Washington, Right Reverend John Bryson Chane as stated in an Episcopal blog (http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/faith_and_politics/more_on_thurgood_marshalls_nom.html) he is indeed a saint. However, I could not find any sources that confirm that that he was made a Saint by the church -- although I've found secondary sources that state he is being considered for the sainthood. Does anyone have any further information on that? If it is true, it should be added here. DonPratt (talk) 14:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

"The guy is a saint - literally. This spring, he was added to the Episcopal Church's list of "Holy Women and Holy Men," which the Episcopal Diocese of New York says "is akin to being granted sainthood." [2]

I'm not familiar with the process of being made into a saint, so I couldn't tell what to make of this. Shoplifter (talk) 14:25, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

2nd Circuit Justice

I think we should create a judgebox like any old 2nd Circuit judge (should get). For example, look at this [3] 129.10.189.220 (talk) 22:08, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Thurgood Marshall Edit Request

{{edit semi-protected}}

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Baseball Watcher 00:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguities

"His father, William Marshall, instilled in him an appreciation for the United States Constitution and the rule of law. Marshall was the grandson of a slave." This is ambiguous - the latter sentence could be referring to either Thurgood or William. Could somebody who knows for sure which is correct please fix this? --Calair 01:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I found a reliable source for the fact that he was a descendent of slaves, so I changed the wording from "Marshall was the great grandson of a slave". If you find something more precise, please update the reference. --89.98.47.147 15:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, "While [Murray v. Maryland] was a moral precedent, it was not a legal one, and had no authority outside the state of Maryland" - presumably it *was* a legal precedent for Maryland, just not at a federal level. --Calair 01:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this was a great page no one could have put his life then this. He gad a great life and I did not know about him till I looked on here it made me won't to be lawer likem and I became one just by looking at this , this is just like meating my love for the first time and that is law because of Thurgood Marshall. Sheila mc march 29 2006

The section detailing his slave roots states he is the great grandson of a slave and then reads "his grandfather was also a slave". Is this supposed to read as both paternal and maternal grand fathers, or is this the same thing written twice?

Clarifiaction needed. Suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.233.15 (talk) 17:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Add an image and fix a typo

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In Thurgood Marshall#Death and legacy, starting at the third paragraph, add the image (with caption) at right and change the word "statute" to "statue"...in other words, change

There are numerous memorials to Justice Marshall. One, an eight foot statute,

to

There are numerous memorials to Justice Marshall. One, an eight-foot statue,

Thanks in advance. 72.244.204.119 (talk) 06:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Partly done: Fixed the typo, included an anagram in my edit summary; I'll leave it to someone who works more with this article to contemplate adding the image v those present. Dru of Id (talk) 06:51, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

There were two statutes! I fixed the other one. Ditto on the image. Rivertorch (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I added the image w/ caption as requested. Its not an unreasonable request, and the protection was a response to vandalism not an editing dispute, so I have added as the IP would have otherwise been able. Please consider it a regular edit and not the result of discussion or consensus for WP:BRD purposes. Monty ₈₄₅ 05:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Application to the University of Maryland

to not perpetuate myths. --Noitall 04:20, August 6, 2005 (UTC) talk more about his childhood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.251.84 (talk) 21:57, 26 May 2012 (UTC)